BRAKIE The original V&O was built in 1962 and was set in the 50s and In the mid 1970s, Allen McClelland began a second phase of construction that expanded the railroad from Elm Grove to Kingswood Junction, VA. I have "The V&O Story " book by Allen McClelland that I picked up at a yard sale for two dollars. A nefty buy.
The original V&O was built in 1962 and was set in the 50s and In the mid 1970s, Allen McClelland began a second phase of construction that expanded the railroad from Elm Grove to Kingswood Junction, VA.
I have "The V&O Story " book by Allen McClelland that I picked up at a yard sale for two dollars. A nefty buy.
That's a heck of a buy. I bought it at full price when it was first published by Carsten's and it was worth every penny of it. I used the V&O design principles when designing my current layout. Most important it is a linear design in which a train will only pass through each scene only once when traversing the layout. Now that is common place with layout design but when Allen created the original layout, bowl of spaghetti design was typical.
WOW! This turned out pretty good so far. Especially considering these decals are AT LEAST 55 years old!
.
Microscale Liquid Decal Film is wonderful stuff.
I added a black circle behind the herald to make it pop out better. I hope Broc Brown, the creator of the UPP STAYERS & EASTERN would be happy with it.
It is great that another classic railroad from the glory days of Private Roadnames will be riding the rails again.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIEDid you know there was a early black and white trackside photo of the V&O in the early 60s that showed a V&O Geep with X2F couplers?
I did not know that. I alwys thought the V&O began in in the 1970s.
Of coarse, there was STRATTON & GILLETTE equipment around in the 1980s, but construction of the "real" SGRR will begin in 2019, and hopefully that will be the one everyone gets to know.
I wonder what date Allen McClelland considers the beginning?
BRAKIE...hauling parts to a Ford assembly plant made from a reinforced shoe box with "brick" paper glued on it..
I remember those days, Larry, and even earlier ones, when structures were wood or metal or cardstock, and brick was on paper sheets. Plastic rolling stock and locos were appearing more commonly, but lots were still metal, as were most truck sideframes and wheels. Kadees were around, but uncoupled mechanically, rather than with magnets. If you wanted something that wasn't available, you either made it, or did without.Some consider that the golden age of model railroading, and I enjoyed it, too. However, I like today's version of model railroading even better...mind you, I still haven't embraced some of the newer technology, but I'm having more fun than ever.
Wayne
SeeYou190 and a decade before real work began on the VIRGINIAN & OHIO.
Did you know there was a early black and white trackside photo of the V&O in the early 60s that showed a V&O Geep with X2F couplers? I remember this because this was around the time I started getting interested in freelancing a railroad.
My first freelance railroad was the Detroit Connecting. The road was a industrial switching road that handled lots of Athearn 50' double door automobile boxcars hauling parts to a Ford assembly plant made from a reinforced shoe box with "brick" paper glued on it..
NYBW-JohnIn the days before inkjet printers and home made decals, I am wondering what method freelance modelers used to letter their rolling stock. When I look at pictures of Allen McClelland's Virginian and Ohio and John Allen's Gorre and Daphetid, the lettering on their freight cars looks as crisp as any factory lettering on today's rolling stock. They don't appear to be decals although that is hard to say from photos. I'm wondering if they used stencils or some other method to letter their rolling stock.
Back to the original question... here is your definitive answer. They used custom made decals.
This is from a collection I purchased a while back. The letter of correspondence is dated July, 1962. The decals were printed in white on decals with red carrier paper like Champ used back then. I cannot say for certain if they were printed by Champ because there are no maker's marks on the decals.
1962 would have been right about the time John Allen was finishing up the heavy work on the final GORRE & DAPHETID, and a decade before real work began on the VIRGINIAN & OHIO.
I think this is your answer.
I am going to letter a car for the UPP STAYERS & EASTERN in my next batch.
Click on the image for a large view.
Wayne,
Thank you for the compliment on my craft. It is nice to find people that can be as fanatical as I am, but still have fun with the hobby.
Take care, I am not sure if Thanksgivng is a thing in Canada, but Happy Thanksgiving anyway.
wjstixIf you've used them, you can usually spot them on model railroad equipment in pictures, they were Railroad Roman and maybe slightly oversized.
Those decals came in IIRC three colors and three different sizes.
Here's the last private decals I ordered from Champ before they closed their doors.
SeeYou190...The caparison and knight on this model was decorated with decals. Each of those black squares was individually cut from trim film. Some are pretty weird shapes trying to keep the checkerboard pattern correct. Going around the horse's rump was especially difficult. The Fluer De Lys and Rampant Griffon are also decals....
That's pretty impressive in its own right, Kevin...mine had only to go on straight and properly-spaced, while yours are on multiple curved and irregular surfaces. Nice work for sure!!
BRAKIE NYBW-John As for the custom decals, I'm guessing you mean commercially made. Was that the norm if we go back to the 1980s? Private railroad was the early term for "freelance".
NYBW-John As for the custom decals, I'm guessing you mean commercially made. Was that the norm if we go back to the 1980s?
Private railroad was the early term for "freelance".
NYBW-John wjstix There are people / companies that will make 'custom' decals for you - i.e., make decals to your design. That's been the case for many decades. When I switched to HO in the late 1980's, I worked with Don Manlick of DM Decals to make decals for my free-lance St.Paul Route raiload. Before that, on my prior O scale layout, I used Champion decals - forget right now what they called the line, but Champ made individual word decals, maybe 100 words or so...generic words like Northern, Southern, Central, and also specific city, state, river, or region names. Decals have been around a long time. "Decalcomania" started in France IIRC in the late 1800's. Walthers (who used to have an extensive decal line) and Champion sold decals before World War 2. I have a copy of the first Walthers decal catalogue, which came out in 1942. BTW, even back then it was possible to get custom free-lance decals made. I am getting ready to try creating my own decals. I first tried this over ten years ago and the results were not all that great but printers have improved in resolution in that time so I'm going to give it another shot. I'm hoping to avoid the expense of commercially made custom decals. When I look at photos of the V&O and G&D, that lettering doesn't appear to me to be decals but perhaps that is due to the care taken when applying them. My experience applying decals on structures is that usually you can seen the outline of the decal even when using products like Micro-Sol. That's why I wondered if other methods were used to do the lettering I see in pictures of the V&O and G&D.
wjstix There are people / companies that will make 'custom' decals for you - i.e., make decals to your design. That's been the case for many decades. When I switched to HO in the late 1980's, I worked with Don Manlick of DM Decals to make decals for my free-lance St.Paul Route raiload. Before that, on my prior O scale layout, I used Champion decals - forget right now what they called the line, but Champ made individual word decals, maybe 100 words or so...generic words like Northern, Southern, Central, and also specific city, state, river, or region names. Decals have been around a long time. "Decalcomania" started in France IIRC in the late 1800's. Walthers (who used to have an extensive decal line) and Champion sold decals before World War 2. I have a copy of the first Walthers decal catalogue, which came out in 1942. BTW, even back then it was possible to get custom free-lance decals made.
There are people / companies that will make 'custom' decals for you - i.e., make decals to your design. That's been the case for many decades. When I switched to HO in the late 1980's, I worked with Don Manlick of DM Decals to make decals for my free-lance St.Paul Route raiload. Before that, on my prior O scale layout, I used Champion decals - forget right now what they called the line, but Champ made individual word decals, maybe 100 words or so...generic words like Northern, Southern, Central, and also specific city, state, river, or region names.
Decals have been around a long time. "Decalcomania" started in France IIRC in the late 1800's. Walthers (who used to have an extensive decal line) and Champion sold decals before World War 2. I have a copy of the first Walthers decal catalogue, which came out in 1942. BTW, even back then it was possible to get custom free-lance decals made.
I am getting ready to try creating my own decals. I first tried this over ten years ago and the results were not all that great but printers have improved in resolution in that time so I'm going to give it another shot. I'm hoping to avoid the expense of commercially made custom decals.
When I look at photos of the V&O and G&D, that lettering doesn't appear to me to be decals but perhaps that is due to the care taken when applying them. My experience applying decals on structures is that usually you can seen the outline of the decal even when using products like Micro-Sol. That's why I wondered if other methods were used to do the lettering I see in pictures of the V&O and G&D.
I find the expense worth it. Trial and error and testing before you decide you can't print them as well as commercial printers offsets paying to have your art set up and so on.
NYBW-JohnAs for the custom decals, I'm guessing you mean commercially made. Was that the norm if we go back to the 1980s?
Back to the 60s..Champ made "Private Road Name" decals you could choose from a list for your private railroad.
As far as size issues, remember you can use decals designed for different scales. Sometimes, an N-scale or S-scale decal set might have lettering or heralds that are "just right" for your HO project. My Spectrum 2-10-0 "Russian" decapod has Minneapolis Northfield and Southern Ry. heralds from an old Champ O-scale 40' boxcar decal set.
doctorwayneAs for small lettering, this diminutive tank car, from a Tangent kit, was lettered with 168 individual pieces of decal, some only the . following a short form...
Darn it, I thought I had something to beat you in decal crazyness, but I don't.
The caparison and knight on this model was decorated with decals. Each of those black squares was individually cut from trim film. Some are pretty weird shapes trying to keep the checkerboard pattern correct. Going around the horse's rump was especially difficult. The Fluer De Lys and Rampant Griffon are also decals.
All and all I believe there are only 166 decals on this model. You win. I should have used decals on the lance pennant, but I hand painted it.
Most of my freight and passenger rolling stock has been lettered with decals or dry transfers, and all of my locomotives, both steam and diesel.I've used mostly Champ decals, but also those from Microscale, SMP Accucals, Walthers, Herald King, Black Cat, and others.For dry transfer lettering I started with Letraset Minis (alphabets and numerals), but was soon buying the full-size 10"x15" sheets.Later, I used C-D-S dry transfers, both specific roadname sets for freight and passenger cars, then alphabet sets for lettering my freelanced home road cars.Eventually, I ordered custom lettering from C-D-S, doing the initial artwork myself, then having my brother make it into a photographic positive. I went through three sets of 50 sheets (one sheet did at least two cars), and the artwork for later ones was all done by my brother on his computer.Those eventually ran out, and with C-D-S gone (their artwork and other resources were purchased by Ozark Miniatures, and most of the line has been recently re-issued in decal form, rather than as dry transfers), I turned to Rail Graphics for new custom work.
My first set from them was to honour a now-deceased friend, biL Marsden, who frequented this and other forums. I used his artwork, cleaned-up a bit on my brother's computer, and decaled several cars for my layout and for a friend's, too. The balance of the sets were sold, at cost, to others who knew him through another forum. Here are a couple that I did for my layout...
The dimensional data is from Champ, as the lettering was done to fit on most commonly available cars, whether recent models or older stuff. Placement and embellishments were left up to the user.
The second order from Rail Graphics was instigated when I ran out of heralds for some cars that I had lettered with the last of my third order from C-D-S. It included heralds for my freelanced home road and all basic lettering, along with dimensional data and individual digits to allow customising to match specific prototypes if I wished to use it on cars lettered for real ones using commercially-available decal sets. I also included a lot of car specific notations, such as "THIS CAR EQUIPPED FOR AUTO PARTS LOADING ONLY" or "DO NOT NAIL OR CLEAT DOOR", a common admonishment on older wooden cars - all rather small lettering, but perfectly legible - Rail Graphics will be missed.The first cars on which the new lettering was used was a batch of Tyco gondolas. While the dimensional data on both cars is from Champ, his one is otherwise all C-D-S...
...while this one is similar, but with a decal herald from Rail Graphics...
I've not yet decaled a complete car with the new sets, but will use them on some scratchbuilt cars and also on the Accurail Fowler cars, when they're released.The custom lettering also included lettering for my line of GERN rolling stock, and it was used on a couple of tank car kits, from Tangent...
In the past, I also did a little hand lettering. Two of these locos were featured, long ago, in MR's Paint Shop...
At the time, the only lettering available for TH&B diesels was from Walthers, in yellow. Using a multi-step paint-and-lettering process using dry transfer alphabet sets from C-D-S, the proper colours were achieved by painting the various areas in the colour of the lettering, then masking those colours by apply dry transfers, letter-by-letter, in the appropriate places. The area was then painted the proper background cover, and the dry transfers lifted-off, using masking tape, revealing the proper-coloured lettering.The only catch was the herald on the cab sides - nothing close existed, so I did them using a fine brush - both locos, and perhaps a dozen similar ones were done in this manner (the locos' body shells were all brush-painted anyway).Eventually, suitable dry transfer heralds became available and the balance of the locomotives were painted with an airbrush, all 55-or-so.Much to my relief, this paint scheme was finally released in LifeLike's Proto line and, I think, by Atlas, too.As for small lettering, this diminutive tank car, from a Tangent kit, was lettered with 168 individual pieces of decal, some only the . following a short form...
FWIW when I bought my first custom decals, I calculated that it actually worked out to be slightly cheaper per car to use the custom decals than doing similar cars with say Walthers or Champ decals would cost.
If you have decals that need trimming, trimming as close to the lettering as possible is a good idea. I use Solvaset, usually several applications over a day or two. If I'm doing say a woodsided boxcar, after the decal is pretty much as 'snuggled down' as it's going to get, I take a single-edge razorblade and drag it along the slots between the boards of the car. Then I apply another soaking of Solvaset. That makes a big difference on a wood-sided car.
In my 1942 Walthers decal catalogue (sometimes called PLD 1), it noted they were doing a catalogue because they got so many requests for decals that weren't specific enough - "Santa Fe boxcar" for example, when ATSF has several different lettering styles. So apparently they had already been producing decals for some time. I believe Champion started in 1940.
BTW Lionel 1:48 O-scale freight car kits that were available 1937-42 came with decals if I remember correctly....
7j43k SeeYou190 I do not like the MicroScale data only sets. The lettering seems too small and there are limited options for specific cars. I agree that the options are limited. Their data sheets were the first decals they ever sold (signified by the part number 87-1 and 87-2). It would be nice if they added some more. It's not too hard to do such a thing. I've just been doing something similar. The lettering does come up awfully small. As far as I know, that's because it is a proper scale reduction. Thus anything that was bigger would be out of scale. If that matters. Ed
SeeYou190 I do not like the MicroScale data only sets. The lettering seems too small and there are limited options for specific cars.
I agree that the options are limited. Their data sheets were the first decals they ever sold (signified by the part number 87-1 and 87-2). It would be nice if they added some more. It's not too hard to do such a thing. I've just been doing something similar.
The lettering does come up awfully small. As far as I know, that's because it is a proper scale reduction. Thus anything that was bigger would be out of scale. If that matters.
Ed
I use data sets from my custom decal supplier, Rail Graphics, but sadly he is closing up shop.
Sheldon
NYBW-John In the days before inkjet printers and home made decals, I am wondering what method freelance modelers used to letter their rolling stock. When I look at pictures of Allen McClelland's Virginian and Ohio and John Allen's Gorre and Daphetid, the lettering on their freight cars looks as crisp as any factory lettering on today's rolling stock. They don't appear to be decals although that is hard to say from photos. I'm wondering if they used stencils or some other method to letter their rolling stock.
In the days before inkjet printers and home made decals, I am wondering what method freelance modelers used to letter their rolling stock. When I look at pictures of Allen McClelland's Virginian and Ohio and John Allen's Gorre and Daphetid, the lettering on their freight cars looks as crisp as any factory lettering on today's rolling stock. They don't appear to be decals although that is hard to say from photos. I'm wondering if they used stencils or some other method to letter their rolling stock.
Custom printed decals go way back and are not really that expensive assuming you are going to buy enough for a fleet of rolling stock.
Most custom decal services require some sort of minimum like 25 sheets.
If you are going to model a feelanced road with your own name and logo, that is not very many decals.
About 15 years ago I bought a big stock of decals for my ATLANTIC CENTRAL. Carefully stored they will last a long time. They cost about $2 per 3x5 sheet. That is typically enough names and herolds for two cars.
The best way to get good results with decals is to paint the model with gloss paint, apply the decals, then clear coat the model with matte or flat.
Here is some of my work - click on the picture for a larger image:
Both the flat car and the trailers where painted with Scalecoat gloss paint, decaled and sprayed with Scalecoat clear flat.
NYBW-JohnWhat do you use for the data portion of the lettering.
For the V&O model I hunted down an old set of Champ boxcar data decals to match the ink of the era. The bright opaque white MicroScale uses now would not have looved right with the old V&O decals.
I mostly cut the data portions off of MicroScale freight car dacal sets. Rail Graphics made data sets, but they were very limited. I use these mainly on STRATTON & GILLETTE freight cars.
I do not like the MicroScale data only sets. The lettering seems too small and there are limited options for specific cars.
NYBW-JohnI'm curious as to how you get the decal outline to disappear.
It is really not too hard. This is how I apply a decal:
1) The model surface must be glossy. I use mainly Scalecoat 2 paint which has a perfect finish for applying decals. Some modelers prefer to use Future (not called Future anymore) over matte paint.
2) Rinse the decal. Wait for it to float off of the carrier paper in water, then move it around to rinse off the release agent. I use distilled water beause dissolved minerals in tap water can cause white lining. I then use a small piece of waxed paper in a tweezer to take the decal to the model surface.
3) I use MicroSol to set the decal into place. Most modellers use Microset. Microsol gives you less working time, but I am good at it. Start with Microset.
4) Let the decal dry without touching it.
5) Now use a coat of DACO STRONG DECAL SETTING SOLUTION. This is the greatest stuff ever made. There is no subsitute. Most poeple say Walthers Solvaset works fine, but it is nothing like Daco Strong. One coat with a soft brush and it will do its magic in 5 minutes. DO NOT touch the decal once Daco Strong has been applied. This will pretty much make sure the decal film is not visible when the model is finished.
6) Seal the model with Testors #1260 Dullcoat applied on a dry cool day.
That should be all you need to do.
This is the stuff:
This is an HO scale model of a 1st US army Baldwin 1910 model Mark II Command Steam Tank in the decal process. The Daco Strong took the decal down around all the rivets like magic. This was a very stiff decal over very high relief rivets.
7j43k Microscale makes a couple of sets of "data". They won't match anything exactly, but most people will be in no position to argue. When I use them, I try to get the CAPY (capacity) number to match the prototype, and stop there. And maybe the IL (internal length). You can take exactness as far as you wish with decals. Sort of. I did a flatcar, and got ALL of the lettering correct. It took 99 pieces. And a bit of time. I don't get in that kind of mood too often. Ed
Microscale makes a couple of sets of "data". They won't match anything exactly, but most people will be in no position to argue. When I use them, I try to get the CAPY (capacity) number to match the prototype, and stop there. And maybe the IL (internal length).
You can take exactness as far as you wish with decals. Sort of. I did a flatcar, and got ALL of the lettering correct. It took 99 pieces. And a bit of time. I don't get in that kind of mood too often.
My feeling for the data portion of the lettering is that something generic will do just fine. I have trouble reading it even with my reading glasses on so I'm not too concerned if it isn't exactly right. I doubt any visitors will notice. I might try to do as you suggest and match the capacity as close as possible. I think this is where the good-enough approach comes into play. As long as there is something where the data should be, to me that is good enough.
NYBW-John'm curious as to how you get the decal outline to disappear. Do you trim the decal very close to the printed portion and/or do you use a setting solution? Also, what do you use for the data portion of the lettering. I think that would be very difficult to produce on an inkject printer. I know there are dry transfers available which is what I planned to use for that part of the lettering.
Many Military modelers do the following:
1 Gloss paint, or clear gloss coat surface to be decaled. 2 cut decals close, 3 clear gloss coat In the past Future Floor Wax often used for gloss coat. Future name has become Pledge, however there are different varieties of Pledge (only one of which works as well as the old future) 4 weathering if desired. 5 clear flat or semi-gloss.
Decaling gloss surface also eliminates "silvering" caused by air bubbles under decal. Setting solutions soften decals so they settle into and streach around surface irregularities.
Thread on Trains Forum on the subject This one doesen't menture Future, but there are other Threads that do.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/205535.aspx
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
NYBW-John I'm curious as to how you get the decal outline to disappear. Do you trim the decal very close to the printed portion and/or do you use a setting solution?
I'm curious as to how you get the decal outline to disappear. Do you trim the decal very close to the printed portion and/or do you use a setting solution?
Both. And it never really disappears. It just gets harder and harder to see. The thinner the film, the better, for one. That's with water-slide decals. Dry transfer doesn't have that problem
Also, what do you use for the data portion of the lettering. I think that would be very difficult to produce on an inkject printer. I know there are dry transfers available which is what I planned to use for that part of the lettering.
To find out how long water-slide decals have been around in model railroading, start searching for ads in old Model Railroader magazines. I wouldn't be surprised to find such an ad in the first issue. And you can bet that the decal makers welcomed custom work at the time.
The first custom decals I saw were for a freelance railroad, Westminster Southern, in about 1963. The owner gave me a set, and I have a boxcar around here somewhere lettered with them.
Later, about 1980, I had decals made up by Herald King for my own railroad: Sierra Cascade. When they shut down, they sent me the artwork.
Coincidentallly, I am today about to send off for pricing the artwork for a current freelance: Klickitat Lumber & Navigation Co.
And, just to show you custom decal work doesn't HAVE to be freelance, I'm also getting some decals done to letter a Great Northern gas-electric.
SeeYou190 I can answer for the V&O. The V&O had custom printed decals in the 1970s. I own a set of these I bought at an estate auction in Miami. The original owner still kept then letter from Allen McClelland with handwritten instructions on how to letter the car. . . I used Microscle Liquid Decal paper and lettered this car with ORIGINAL V&O decals from the 70s. . . This is one of the prizes of my collection. . All STRATTON AND GILLETTE decals have been custom screen ink printed my Rail Graphics since 1983. . -Kevin .
I can answer for the V&O. The V&O had custom printed decals in the 1970s. I own a set of these I bought at an estate auction in Miami. The original owner still kept then letter from Allen McClelland with handwritten instructions on how to letter the car.
I used Microscle Liquid Decal paper and lettered this car with ORIGINAL V&O decals from the 70s.
This is one of the prizes of my collection.
All STRATTON AND GILLETTE decals have been custom screen ink printed my Rail Graphics since 1983.
I'm curious as to how you get the decal outline to disappear. Do you trim the decal very close to the printed portion and/or do you use a setting solution? Also, what do you use for the data portion of the lettering. I think that would be very difficult to produce on an inkject printer. I know there are dry transfers available which is what I planned to use for that part of the lettering.