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Telluride & Tin Cup: A 1:20.3 Large-Scale Outdoor Layout

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Telluride & Tin Cup: A 1:20.3 Large-Scale Outdoor Layout
Posted by mlehman on Monday, July 3, 2017 3:18 AM

Welcome to my thread on the Telluride & Tin Cup, which I abbreviate to the T&T. It was designed to make do mostly with track and rolling stock already on hand, although I bought an extra 10' of LGB track. The benchwork is most recycled from weathered wood used on old yard projects.

While it's technically a "garden railroad" it doesn't actually reach the garden and most of it is built on benchwork much like my "serious" HO/HOn3 layout in the basement. The challenges of opersating an outdoor railroad are much more like that of a real RR. Weather, animals, and vegetation all impact operations and require vigilance when operating.

I started the project by converting my Bachmann Shay to RC/battery operation. This is easily and cheaply done for ~$100 or less. Some of the components and the transmitter.

With the high energy of LiPo batteries, most eveerything can be tucked into the tender like on my Bachmann Shay.

Since what I had on hand were the shaprer LGB curves, I did some testing to confirm they would work. OK with my Bachmann rolling stock, but I also have some AMS scale cars that required modification.

Grades were initially a concern, but testing with the Shay soon proved it capable of handling the 12%+ grades of the design.

With that resolved, construction began...

Mike Lehman

Urbana, IL

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Posted by mlehman on Monday, July 3, 2017 6:05 AM

I wanted a way to reverse the Shay at both ends of the line. At the lower end I built a loop with a passing track (Yards) and a spur into my shop (Shops) where storage out of the wqeatheer was available inside.

The loop facilitates turning trains and is long enough one side can be used to store a train. Leaving Yards, the track qiuickly climbs Graveyard Hill. Many tiny rodents, birds, and other victioms of the household felines lie buried there if not eaten.

A view back at the loop, etc from the sopt where the transition to benchwork happens.

And then it was time for some fill and ballast.

 

Mike Lehman

Urbana, IL

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Posted by RR_Mel on Monday, July 3, 2017 6:48 AM

Hi Mike
 
Great start!!!!  Looking very nice.
 
I tried that route in the early 2000s and it didn’t go well.  Before I started I subscribed to Garden Railways and that led me astray.  They never mentioned the “Varmint’” problem.  An outdoor model Railroad won’t work in Bakersfield.
 
Everything went very good in the initial install, about 4 months during the fall of 2004.  The next summer I had a rude awakening when the varmints awoke and paid my garden railroad a visit.
 
I don’t have any idea what kind of varmints you have in Urbana but Bakersfield is loaded to the max.  After living in Bakersfield for 15 years I had no idea how bad they could be.  Spiders, gofers, field mice, birds, ants, frogs and of course our two Poodles.
 
Ants and SOMG are the worst, the ants used the rails for freeways.  The ants here are tough!   I would spray the track with a Green varmint killer and two hours later they were back.  After the wheels squished the ants I had to run a Centerline track cleaning car to mop them up.  I learned the hard way there is an acid in the ants that eats the brass rails if it isn’t cleaned up.
 
Bakersfield is the capital of US SMOG, #1 in the nation 364 days every year.  The SMOG dries and falls to the Earth and it also eats the brass rails making it necessary to run the track cleaner once a week all year long.
 
Needless to say I gave up on my G gauge after a few years, I pulled the track last summer and I’m in the process of cleaning it up to unload everything on eBay.
 
I’ll miss my G Gauge but unfortunately old age is running my life now and working on my knees is a no go.
 
  
 
 
Good luck Mike, keep us posted on your progress.
 
 
Mel
 
Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
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Posted by mlehman on Monday, July 3, 2017 10:00 AM

Hi Mel,

Yeah, you do need to have a plan for the critters. Most importantly here, going dead rail solved a lot of problems. I'd operated with DC on a few temp layouts laid out on the yard and found that unsatisfactory. With my power and control both onboard, I need to worry only about stuff that will derail things.

I also limited the amount of line built on the ground to about 1/3 of the total line. As you can see from the following pics, once past Chasm Falls, the line is up off the gtound. I'm not getting any younger, either.

Here is also where I used the capabilities of the Shay to avoid what I first thought would require a climbing loop that passed over itself by going straight up the grade. Looming over  the climbing line is my main critter problem, my squirrel feeder. Here a RR-flavored solution presented itself, a snowshed.

Another critter problem comes in the form of the household felines.

The main issue besides the sloppy eating habits of the squirrels, both they and the cats tend to limit their problem causing to knocking rolling stock over and digging a bit in the surrounding ground and ballast slopes. Other than that, the biggest problem is from stuff the trees either drop or the squirrels cut off for their nests, but do you want shade - or not?My 2 CentsSmile, Wink & Grin

Mike Lehman

Urbana, IL

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Posted by mlehman on Tuesday, July 4, 2017 6:24 PM

As the T&T proceeded along the fence, it eventually came to a jog. Initially, I made the questionable decision to navigate through the jog with a reverse curve, mostly because I had more curved than straight track and because the terminal at Tin Cup was going to be tiny.. The Talgo-ed Bachmann cars did fine, but you could only haul one AMS car through at a time.

 Eventually I figured out something better, with straigthening the curve as one of the benefits. Here's the curve now that it's been rebuilt, an area now called the Palisades.

Here's the original tiny terminal at Tin Cup, big enough for the turntable, a car or two and not much more.

In the realignment, a more commodious result that could handle a train of 3 cars+caboose.

The third improvement location in the realignment was at the swicth that led to the mine swite below Middleton. Here, the spur went straight ahead, withe the downgrade back toward Shops taking a right turn right after the turnout, Again, the Bachmann cars had few problems, but the more picky AMS cars were derailing a bunch when trying to follow the curve of the main.

I changed to a left hand turnout, followed by a right curve for the main. While it looked a little hinky, it solved nearly all derailments at this site.

In the end, even with the more toylike sharp LGB curves, you still need to assess what works for you while observing the same set of best track design practices as well as applying creative solutions to your specific situation. It's not rocket science, but requires some problem solving skills and patience to get good performance.

Mike Lehman

Urbana, IL

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  • From: Bakersfield, CA 93308
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Posted by RR_Mel on Tuesday, July 4, 2017 7:25 PM

Mike
 
I didn’t have varmint problems with elevated track, it was only the track in the garden.  I did have some problems with the track attached to my fence similar to your pictures with bird droppings.  The birds would perch on the fence and do their thing.  The bird dropping didn’t eat the brass rails, it just looked bad.  The sprinkler system took care of the bird drippings most of the time.
 
I really like the way you have set yours up.  I built two storage tracks on my covered/screened patio.  I had a 5’ hinged Howe Truss lift bridge between the patio and the fence.  There was 70’ of track attached the fence between the patio and garden.  Our garden is elevated 30”, 8’ deep by 80’ wide.  I had a large oval with a turnout in the center of thee garden on the back side that went into a wye on outside track to turn the trains around.  About 250’ of track and a total 6 turnouts.
 
My fleet was two Bachmann ten wheelers one 2-8-0 and a Shay.  I run one passenger (6 old time coaches with a Drovers Caboose) and one logging train (8 logging cars and a caboose).
 
I really miss it but old age has done a job on my knees, even with knee pads its too much.  I have pulled all the track and buildings with the exception of the track on the patio.
   
 
 
Mel
 
Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
 
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Posted by mlehman on Wednesday, July 5, 2017 2:31 AM

Mel,

I did heed my waning ability to get down and back up again. An aid in this was getting one of those rolling garden seats, seen in the last pic in my second post plus another somewhat later. It's npty ideal, but for extending work down low it really helps. On the patio, it's also noticeable that the RR is accessible easy enough for anyone in a wheelchair. With the right tires, the area in the yard would also be accessible. I hope I never need a chair, but you never know.

Let's talk scenery. One reason to stay on the ground is that you will have scenery, either by chloice or chance. I'm going mostly with "by chance" so whatever is growing already becomes something to manage. Your choice on manual versus chemical weed control.

One added component for me is the ballast and this will be so for mosat anyone who uses ballast. I use the Cherrystone #2 chicken gritand have used most of 4 bags on the line you can see. The squirrels like to dig in it some, but I've controlled that by making the exposed surface areea smaller by breaking it up and using shields. An example is here.

The wooden barrier or cribbing to the right in the pic above helps hold the ballast in place. You need a pretty wide slope, so on the prototype there were various engineering solutions to hold the more expensive ballast in place. I tend to use whatever's handy, with an eye on durability and recycling.

The benchwork partt of the grade is done in various wood pieces, primariliy treated pine recycled from old fencing. There's also some cedar, plus random scraps of other stuff. What's important here is structural. It doesn't need to be sit-on strong, but it also needs to stay in place and not sag. A good electyronic level that reads out a grade to tenths of a percent makes building and maintaining your grade much easier.

Here's an example of how all kinds of on-hand wood can be useful and are very suitable. Surer you can buy new wood if you have no other choice, otherwise recycle as it comes preweathered, right?

I use the same techniques used for L-girder construction for the most part.

zI also use wood for tyhe scenery itself. The "Palisades" is a good example. Just thin cedar shingles stapled in place using techniques I've used for styrofoam indoors. These I will let naturally weather.

I have some more images coming of building up the ground contours with wood, including for structures foundations, and some of that may see paint or not as I end up deciding.

I'm not too worried about absolute realism here, just sufficient realism. My modeling philosophy is thr clodrt to thr trsck it is or the larger scale it is, the more attention and detail is given to the model. In HO, you needa lot of detail and you get it across the layout tp one degree or another.

For me, in Fn3 or 1:20.3, almost all the focus is on the models. I'm looking forward to building some largescale rolling stock and have already added a railcar, The Startled Hare, named by the Bear, probably out of frustration at not catching lunch or somethingDinner because it's way nosier than any such critter would be if you've watched the video yet. I hope to add another video from it to this thread in the next few days. And thanks to Bear for the great name for my passenger service, however he came up with itWink She certainly darts about like a rabbit, if rather more clamourously.

Mike Lehman

Urbana, IL

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Posted by SouthPenn on Wednesday, July 5, 2017 6:59 AM

I have been using this deer and rabbit repellent to keep the squirrels and rabbits out of my flower beds. Haven't had anything eaten in a while. This might work to keep the critters away from your railroad.

South Penn
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Posted by RR_Mel on Wednesday, July 5, 2017 9:36 AM

Mike, You are correct about:
 
“I'm going mostly with "by chance" so whatever is growing already becomes something to manage.”
 
“Your choice on manual versus chemical weed control”.
 
 
I was afraid to use chemicals in the garden, my wife has a lot of very beautiful flowers and plants in the garden and I didn’t want to take a chance of destroying anything.  Over 40 Rose bushes alone.
 
I did error by putting the track too close to a Sago Palm, the fronds are super sharp and hurt.  Almost as bad as a Rose bush.   
 
I put down two layers of fiberglass weed control webbing (Home Depot) then covered that with a layer of 2” to 3” rock (that took longer than laying the track).  I used #2 quarry rock for my ballast, we have a rock quarry about 20 miles away and two trips in my pickup with $9 per load.  A month using a wheel barrow with a bucket and that was done.
 
The webbing worked out pretty good for about two years then we had to use a spot grass killer until we pulled my garden railroad out.
 
I was having problems keeping the ballast from spreading on its own so I mixed up a thin batch of concrete to pour on the roadbed.  I went over the roadbed with a light mist from the garden hose about 30 minutes afterwards and that worked out very good.  You couldn’t tell by eye that the cement “glue” was there.
 
Both my wife and I envy you Mike, we both really loved trains in our garden.
 
    
   
 
 
Mel
 
Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by mlehman on Wednesday, July 5, 2017 4:37 PM

South Penn and Mel,

Will reply further a little later, got to make hay while the sun is shining.

Right now, a new "Startled Hare" cab ride video, this time downgrade complete with barely audible narration by yours truly, just like if you were riding the real thing.Big Smile

Telluride & Tin Cup Downgrade Cab Ride with New Stations MOVI0061 from Mike Lehman on Vimeo.

Further Credits:

Startled Hare Concept and Name: Ja Bear

Signage: Maiko

Faults, Delays, Crusty Production Values, and Rubber Checks: Mike

The Startled Hare: Silverton RC (Rail Car+Radio Control) Shops

 Light control servos arrioved today, so the Hare gets her eyes, soon!

 The Upgrade Video: http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/262930/2977457.aspx#2977457

Mike Lehman

Urbana, IL

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Posted by mlehman on Thursday, July 6, 2017 3:02 AM

South Penn,

I wondered if that stuff is any good. I might try it, but I get along with my squirrels for the most part, so will file for future reference.

Mel,

Good tips there. I used a light spray of Roundup extended release per the instructions over the ballast when I first laid it down. So far, pulling by hand made it easy to deal with the weeds.

I've had OK luck with landscape cloth. Problem is we have so much blowing dirt it deposits/fills in on TOP of the cloth allowing stuff to sprout and grow on top of the cloth. I considered using the cloth under the track, but then thought I'd soon enough be back to Square 1 on weed control so didn't bother. With only ~50' of track on the ground and no wiring to sweat over I can always re-do stuff that doesn't work out

I do like the idea of mixing in of cement to hold the ballast in place. I even have a leftover bag of masonry cement...hmm, hmmHmm

Mike Lehman

Urbana, IL

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Posted by "JaBear" on Thursday, July 6, 2017 7:12 AM
Rummaging through an old box at a “flea market “I came across this…
 

 

Cheers, the Bear.Smile

"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."

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Posted by SouthPenn on Thursday, July 6, 2017 7:22 AM

You might want to try Preen. It keeps plants from growing or even starting. Just spinkle it on top of the dirt.

South Penn
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Posted by G Paine on Thursday, July 6, 2017 7:34 AM

Rummaging through an old box at a “flea market “I came across this…

That's a goodin! Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile

George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch 

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Posted by mlehman on Thursday, July 6, 2017 12:11 PM

Bear,

That's whimsical - and I love it!

Your creativity also points out another aspect of how large scale outdoor layouts focus on scenes that frame the equipment. Once you take an image, it can be processed into something that makes best use of the available scenic cues yo make it seem more realistic than the original shot. I liked the original but you;ve ytransformed it into something rather iconic and entrancing. Thanks so much!

Mike Lehman

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Posted by mlehman on Thursday, July 6, 2017 12:15 PM

SouthPenn

You might want to try Preen. It keeps plants from growing or even starting. Just spinkle it on top of the dirt.

 

Interesting, will file that for future reference.

It's going to have to rain more around here or I'll be able to keep up with things as creaky as I can be at times.

Mike Lehman

Urbana, IL

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Posted by rrinker on Thursday, July 6, 2017 2:32 PM

 You can have our rain. It's becoming annoying. At least it keeps my pool filled up - but what good is that if it's raining all the time? Actually, as long as there is no lightning, I will still go in even if it's raining.

                    --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by mlehman on Thursday, July 6, 2017 3:38 PM

rrinker

 You can have our rain. It's becoming annoying. At least it keeps my pool filled up - but what good is that if it's raining all the time? Actually, as long as there is no lightning, I will still go in even if it's raining.

                    --Randy

 

 

If your outdoor railroad circles your pool, there's another good reason right there to go deadrail -- that much less extra dangerous electricity circling your pool! StormIdea [insert long missing train emoji] Wink

Mike Lehman

Urbana, IL

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Posted by RR_Mel on Thursday, July 6, 2017 4:28 PM

Could be a refreshment train from the bar.
   
 
 
Mel
 
Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
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Posted by mlehman on Friday, July 7, 2017 10:07 AM

Yes, exactly. Serving up some genuine freight serevice is a possibility. I've been thinking about a drink holder insert for the gons. For food, it may fit in a gon, too. However, I've been thinking about doing up a depressed center flat, somthing like this one that Bear has made an HO model of, for those wide food loads: http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/256674.aspx?page=1

Mike Lehman

Urbana, IL

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Posted by rrinker on Friday, July 7, 2017 3:40 PM

 My pool deck is well above the grade of my patio, if I ran straight across, what is on the deck of the pool would be about chest high on the patio. However that would put it about the height of the windows into the kitchen, so easy transfer of food and drink to the train. Now you're giving me ideas.

 I do want to repalce my fence with a higher one, although I'm not so sure about the stockade style - but then I could run a train around the perimeter of the yard, could get quite a long run in there. Even if I kept it mainly along the back edge behind the pool - there's a narrow strip of grass that's a huge pain to mow because you're almost in the pool with one side while the other side is rubbing the fence even with a walk-behind mower. 

                 --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by "JaBear" on Friday, July 7, 2017 4:52 PM

rrinker
...there's a narrow strip of grass that's a huge pain to mow...

 
Concrete with added green dye, Randy.Wink
 
I see all my photos in the CISX 500 depressed centre thread, that Mike linked to, are “gone” so, hopefully here’s a completed shot.
Edit. I've replaced all the "gone" photos in that thread.
 

Cheers, the BearSmile

"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."

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Posted by mlehman on Friday, July 7, 2017 5:10 PM

rrinker
I could run a train around the perimeter of the yard, could get quite a long run in there. Even if I kept it mainly along the back edge behind the pool - there's a narrow strip of grass that's a huge pain to mow because you're almost in the pool with one side while the other side is rubbing the fence even with a walk-behind mower. --Randy

Yeah, who wants to put up with a bit of pesky mowing when you could have trains instead?Smile, Wink & Grin

You can really come up with some interesting grades once you start thinking outside the box of purely model railroading. Things are really flat around here, but I managed a climb that's a challenge by going from grounf lrvrl onto the femnce. But to do it in as short a grade as I did takes a Shay or something with similar crazy tractice effort.

Bear, You got stuck by the great Photobucket highway robbery thing, too? Makes me glad I've been with Imageshack.

So, we'll just go with a prototype pic threadStick out tongue that's only been lightly impacted by the PB meltdown: http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/13/t/240122.aspx?page=1

 

Mike Lehman

Urbana, IL

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Posted by Track fiddler on Friday, July 7, 2017 5:41 PM

If there is such thing as never a dull moment in the backyard you have definitely achieved that.  

It looks like you're having fun Mike.  Taking your hobby outdoors while it's nice out is a great idea.

I like it.

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Posted by mlehman on Friday, July 7, 2017 6:13 PM

Thanks, Track fiddler!

You can't stay in that stuffy basement year around breathing in that radon, coal gas, and black lung. Not to mention all that stuffy prototype stuff starts getting heavy after awhile...nah, just kidding, I've got the library and models to prove I've paid my proto-dues. But all work and no play makes Jack a dull kid. Whiile the Startled Hare has no prototype, she's based on some familiar proto-themes.It is rather hard to get over the thrill of seeing the world through her cab window. Someday soon, we'll be able to neatly do that in HOn3 -- or smaller. Until then, it's satisfying to watch the video and listen to the mechnical whirligig under the floor of the Hare.

I am planning on trying not to trash the new SQ11 like I did with the SQ8 and I'll still get some video off the HOn3, just no cab-out views. After the weather gets me back inside, like when it hits 95 mayve?Angry

 
 
 

Mike Lehman

Urbana, IL

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Posted by rrinker on Friday, July 7, 2017 6:46 PM

 The RC transmitters run on batteries - so i could float in the pool and run trains!

Or I could get a live steamer and run it on the pool deck, and then proceed to drop it in the pool ala Andy Sperandeo way back - find the review of the live steam Rocket, late 70's or early 80's some time. They first tried it in the driveway but there was a slope so they decided to move it to the pool deck. Worked great until the loco was dropped in the pool, Andy rescued it and, being a live steam model, was no woorse for the wear (the loco, not Andy). The (mis)adventures were in Bull Session, there was also a proper review of it.

                                      --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by mlehman on Saturday, July 8, 2017 12:46 AM

Ha, yeah I remember that! Not sure that the RC stuff will come out as swimmingly as live steam would though, but in case of accident you would avoid electrocution, or as the lobster says, dinner.

Mike Lehman

Urbana, IL

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