BLS53There's certain childhood activities that once evolved into adult hobbies, that today, more less have an adult age point of entry.
An observation about train sets though, and with my all too brief involvement in retail model trains, totally unscientific, was that I was never too sure whether the trainset was for the kids, or Dads excuse to get into model railroading!
BLS53Can anyone tell me the average age of MRers today? I would bet it's above 50, if not higher.
BLS53I would venture to say, that one would be hard pressed to randomly find a guy on the street, age 40 and under, who has ever laid hands on any type of model train as we know them.
BLS53 Not only that, I would bet many would have a difficult time giving a reasonable definition of what model railroading is.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
I know most of AHM's structure kits came from Pola in Germany, the same kits layer wound up with TYCO, Life Like, IHC or Atlas packaging.
7j43k It's a thought. And a good one. Let's go back to when I was a kid. A bit beyond 50 years ago. Sniff. I loved trains (see below). I had Lionel. At the time (junior high school), I had it set up in our available 2-car garage (as Randy Neuman said: I love LA!). One day I'm in a store and see a copy of Model Railroader. Late '58, as I recall. Oh, my! The things people made. The things people could buy. I bought a gorgeous 4 truck Athearn flatcar. And when I discovered Kadee couplers, they HAD to go on that car. I scratchbuilt a little shed that I think was part of a Model Trains article on an asphalt company. Etc. Etc. I'm not so much talking about the kid part. I'm talking about how, even then, people were after accuracy in modeling. The idea spoke to me. And in some magazines, I could see it did to other people. Look through a few copies of MR from back then. Thing is, what happened is accuracy built on accuracy. Early strivings were really crude. To us, now. Back then, it was cutting edge. I'm looking right now at a Varney switcher body. It was about the best when it came out. They didn't even know it was a phase 2 or 3 or whatever NW2. Or that it was an NW2, at all, as I recall. But it was really a nice piece of work for its day. So nice, in fact, that I'm using the basic body for a switcher project. I would say that accuracy has been striven (is that a real word?) for ever since someone used the phrase "scale model railroading". BELOW: Kids who passionately like trains are a small group. The percentage may well change over time. But there are never going to be LOTS OF THEM. Ever. Ed
It's a thought. And a good one.
Let's go back to when I was a kid. A bit beyond 50 years ago. Sniff.
I loved trains (see below). I had Lionel. At the time (junior high school), I had it set up in our available 2-car garage (as Randy Neuman said: I love LA!). One day I'm in a store and see a copy of Model Railroader. Late '58, as I recall. Oh, my! The things people made. The things people could buy. I bought a gorgeous 4 truck Athearn flatcar. And when I discovered Kadee couplers, they HAD to go on that car. I scratchbuilt a little shed that I think was part of a Model Trains article on an asphalt company. Etc. Etc.
I'm not so much talking about the kid part. I'm talking about how, even then, people were after accuracy in modeling. The idea spoke to me. And in some magazines, I could see it did to other people. Look through a few copies of MR from back then.
Thing is, what happened is accuracy built on accuracy. Early strivings were really crude. To us, now. Back then, it was cutting edge. I'm looking right now at a Varney switcher body. It was about the best when it came out. They didn't even know it was a phase 2 or 3 or whatever NW2. Or that it was an NW2, at all, as I recall. But it was really a nice piece of work for its day. So nice, in fact, that I'm using the basic body for a switcher project.
I would say that accuracy has been striven (is that a real word?) for ever since someone used the phrase "scale model railroading".
BELOW:
Kids who passionately like trains are a small group. The percentage may well change over time. But there are never going to be LOTS OF THEM. Ever.
Ed
I see that my last post was so poorly composed as to make it unreadable. Twiceover. I shall have to improve my writing skills or simply cease such attempts.
BLS53 I imagine the accuracy today, has a lot to do with MR being primarily an adult hobby now. That wasn't necessarily the case 50 years ago. That’s a debateable point. While toy trains, starting with wooden or metal “pull along” in the 1860s were aimed at children, I’d suggest, even though electric toy trains came into being around 1900, that the first issue of Model Railroader in 1934 not only heralded the recognition that there was a difference between “toy trains” for children, and “model trains” for adults, but showed how, and why, more prototypical accuracy and detail could be achieved. To be fair though, children were not excluded, MR May 1942, May 1949, shows a father and daughter on the cover; father and son January 1949, April 1950, January 1951; father mother and son, December 1955. though it needs to be pointed out that having people on the cover was almost gone by mid 1953. (In the June 70 MR there’s of photo of Bruce Chubb, of Sunset Valley RR fame with his daughter running trains.) In fact, model railroading had become so adult orientated that in the MR April 1972 “At the throttle “column under the title “Young Model railroaders have had it bad”, Lynn H Westcott announced the start of the “Student Fare” column. Accuracy and detail had nothing to do with children, but a lot to do with affordability. Without any desire to reignite the tiresome “the hobby is too expensive” argument, I believe what the likes of AHM did, was to make models available to more of the population therefore expanding the hobbies base to the benefit of all participants. Besides those inclined and with the ability had plenty of articles in the model railroad press which showed how to make silk purses from sows’ ears. Cheers, the Bear.
BLS53 I imagine the accuracy today, has a lot to do with MR being primarily an adult hobby now. That wasn't necessarily the case 50 years ago.
Cheers, the Bear.
Good points. I'm far from being a historian on the subject, and I'm not active in the hobby now. My memories are that in the late 1950's "electric trains" were a big part of most young boy's lives. Usually by age 12 or so, they ended up stored away somewhere. Those who stayed in the hobby, seemed to migrate from Lionel to HO. I don't think the change over to HO was an immediate conversion into becoming a serious modeler, and much of the HO items sold at the time, retained a toy aspect to them. You folks in the hobby today are better informed than I am, to know if that market still exist today. I'm inclined to think that it doesn't.
There's certain childhood activities that once evolved into adult hobbies, that today, more less have an adult age point of entry. Another hobby that shares similar characteristics historically, is baseball card collecting.
Can anyone tell me the average age of MRers today? I would bet it's above 50, if not higher.
I would venture to say, that one would be hard pressed to randomly find a guy on the street, age 40 and under, who has ever laid hands on any type of model train as we know them. Not only that, I would bet many would have a difficult time giving a reasonable definition of what model railroading is.
BLS53I imagine the accuracy today, has a lot to do with MR being primarily an adult hobby now. That wasn't necessarily the case 50 years ago.
I imagine the accuracy today, has a lot to do with MR being primarily an adult hobby now. That wasn't necessarily the case 50 years ago.
rrinker AHM was a HUGE player in the early 70's. They had all 3 major scales, everything com complete sets to individual cars and locos, structures of all sorts, figures, even track. Their catalog also had scale military vehicles and other things. It was a rather large book (not as big as Walthers, to be sure, but it was only the stuff THEY sold). Rivarossi and Pocher made most of the locos. They went under, only to reemerge essentially as IHC, which lasted for a number of years. Fairly big as well, but no longer selling Rivarossi-made locos. Some IHC locos were Frataschi, not sure about others, or their passenger cars. They used to have a 2 page spread in MR every month. So not a minor player at all. I always felt their stuff was a step above the train set Life Like and Tyco junk of the 70's, not as good as Atlas/Roco. --Randy
AHM was a HUGE player in the early 70's. They had all 3 major scales, everything com complete sets to individual cars and locos, structures of all sorts, figures, even track. Their catalog also had scale military vehicles and other things. It was a rather large book (not as big as Walthers, to be sure, but it was only the stuff THEY sold). Rivarossi and Pocher made most of the locos. They went under, only to reemerge essentially as IHC, which lasted for a number of years. Fairly big as well, but no longer selling Rivarossi-made locos. Some IHC locos were Frataschi, not sure about others, or their passenger cars. They used to have a 2 page spread in MR every month. So not a minor player at all. I always felt their stuff was a step above the train set Life Like and Tyco junk of the 70's, not as good as Atlas/Roco.
--Randy
Life Like. That brings back memories of 4x8 grass mats and plastic trees. I do recall they had some trains as well.
The practice of putting all sorts of roadnames on cast plastic or metal locomotives is time honored in the hobby. As pointed out above, if you squint hard enough at that Santa Fe steam locomotive you can sort of see the resemblance to the Mantua/Tyco B&O Pacific. Now we are fussier and moreover, now stuff is engineered from the git-go for at least some prototype specific details. Back in the day, once the "die was cast" that is how the engine or car looked, forever.
AHM was huge in its day - one of the biggest and perhaps THE biggest in terms of volume from 1965 to maybe 1975-80. And it was a slap in the face to the NMRA that AHM became so big while offering nearly nothing that met NMRA standards in terms of wheel flanges and, sometimes, coupler height. That might have been the beginning of the end for the NMRA "compliance" symbol being as important as it once was. How often do you see it used now for example? Most modelers don't even know what it looks like, or care.
The sequence, I suspect, was this. First, Rivarossi came out with the F-M C-Liner, I think around 1960 or a few years earlier, and while the detail and accuracy now look rather subpar, at the time it was above average (compare for example the Varney F-3).
Then, a guy named Bernie Paul, very active in the model importing business, began AHM and Rivarossi was one of their biggest "accounts." But AHM was also active in finding lower cost "knock offs" of Rivarossi stuff, perhaps under license from Rivarossi, perhaps not. The F-M C Liner was one of the various knock offs over the years. Curiously, at some point one of the eastern European sources actually did a much better and more accurate job on the F-M trucks than did Rivarossi, and guys would seek out those engines for the trucks alone. Some versions had separate wire grab irons, some had cast plastic. There were other slight detail differences from time to time.
The thing is, Rivarossi being European, before AHM existed they had a somewhat strange notion of what American stuff to make. Their 0-8-0 was Indiana Harbor Belt (initially with tender drive), of which there were I think exactly three prototypes, rather than USRA. A little "Mother Hubbard" 0-4-0 was I think early Reading prototype and not at all common. They had the B&O Dockside 0-4-0T that Varney had been selling for years. A somewhat peculiar looking 2-8-0 was partly American partly European looking. Very briefly they offered a C&NW 4-4-2 and a Milwaukee Road Hiawatha 4-4-2. Again this was made BEFORE there was an AHM. It was all interesting stuff, but Rivarossi seemed to disregard the conventional wisdom that mass produced stuff needed to be either generic or the most popular prototypes. They sensed perhaps that low cost could create the popularity.
So AHM found itself wanting to offer mass market trains but at least initially they were kind of stuck with the oddities that Rivarossi had long favored. They put all sorts of road names on that IHB 0-8-0, more or less pretending it was USRA, and put all sorts of roadnames on the F-M C-Liner, more or less pretending it was an EMD F or E unit. Eventually of course AHM brought out its own genuine F and E units but the C Liner remained a very popular (and very cheap) locomotive, used in lots of "Thunder Line" train sets (remember them?). There were times when you could get a Thunder Line train set on sale for less than the cost of the locomotive alone. That included the N&W Y6b 2-8-8-2 which for a time was a train set engine because it was engineered to take 18" radius curves (some guys reported it could take 15" radius curves). It was as if the freight cars and track were free.
As to whether AHM was a manufacturer or a "mere" importer is something of a matter of semantics. Just what (and who) is a manufacturer these days? Eventually AHM called the shots as to what they wanted made, then found factories to make it, be it Rivarossi or someone else. I'm willing to say that an outfit that calls the shots and sets the standards is the manufacturer but others can decide differently. At the least they were not a "passive" importer. They decided. But initially they did not decide, but were passively offering what Rivarossi had long since created. That earlier era is where the C-Liner comes from.
Dave Nelson
PS I admit I do miss the AHM (and IHC, a sort-of successor firm) structures as they were good fodder for us kitbashers.
DN
ACY
Sure. See below:
It's a Pacific. It says Santa Fe. Why, it's practically identical!
7j43k BLS53 Odd thing is, I've been unable to find any indication that the prototype ever existed on IC's roster. Yup, that's odd. Myself, I can't find any indication that Santa Fe ever owned a (sort of) copy of a B&O Pacific: Back in the olden days, there were very few HO locomotives. And an awful lot of railroads. So some manufacturers tended to letter their models for railroads that didn't have them. Especially steam. But diesels, too. The 1967 AHM catalog shows the C liner lettered for Reading, New Haven, PRR, Santa Fe, Northern Pacific, Canadian National, NYC. Of these, Santa Fe and Northern Pacific didn't have any. Ed
BLS53 Odd thing is, I've been unable to find any indication that the prototype ever existed on IC's roster.
Odd thing is, I've been unable to find any indication that the prototype ever existed on IC's roster.
Yup, that's odd. Myself, I can't find any indication that Santa Fe ever owned a (sort of) copy of a B&O Pacific:
Back in the olden days, there were very few HO locomotives. And an awful lot of railroads. So some manufacturers tended to letter their models for railroads that didn't have them. Especially steam. But diesels, too.
The 1967 AHM catalog shows the C liner lettered for Reading, New Haven, PRR, Santa Fe, Northern Pacific, Canadian National, NYC. Of these, Santa Fe and Northern Pacific didn't have any.
For that matter, did Santa Fe ever operate any loco with a livery anything like that? I sorta doubt it. Bogus liveries are pretty easy to find in this hobby, and a little research can be wothwhile (unless you don't care, which is your right). At the hobby shop just the other day, I saw an MTH F3A in Bessemer & Lake Erie colors. Hohohohoho. I kept my wallet in my pocket.
Tom
I don't know WHO made it, but a lot of the junky AHM stuff was made in Yugoslavia, as I recall. I'm thinking the GP18, SD40, SW1, C-424, RS-2 for example. What dogs, even then. I sold mine (yup, I bought some) a few years ago for maybe $3 each. And felt I made a great deal.
Pemco, not Frataschi, that's who made a lot of the later stuff once AHM/IHC no longer sold Rivarossi.
Maybe by today's standards they can be crude, but they were much nicer than any equivalent Tyco or Life Like product of the day. I still have my stable of Virginia and Truckee old timer steam locos, haven't run them in forever, but the original Wild Wild West show (with Robert Conrad and Ross Martin) was one of my favorites so I had a train to duplicate theirs using the Inyo, a horse car (I think that one was Tyco, a baggage car, and a coach. The only one of the bunch that didn't run as smooth was the Bowker. The Reno was the best runner out of them. And the Hudson. Sure, the plastic steam locos made in the past 10 years have gotten MUCH better, the detailing is as good as older brass models, but all these Rivarossi locos date from the late 60's. There was no BLI, Bachmann Spectrum, Proto 2000, etc. There wasn't much better than Rivarossi, unless you went brass.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
The older AHM and Rivarossi products sure look toy-like when you compare them to today's models.
What I remember about road names, is you could find Santa Fe Warbonnets at the corner toy store. Everything else you either had to go to a big hobby shop in the city, or mail order it.
I switched to N scale for awhile. First train set was a freight, pulled by a Santa Fe F7 Warbonnet. The brand name was Aurora. They didn't call it N, it was marketed as "Postage Stamp Trains". There was some European gauge that was compatible, but had different couplers. I recall trying to get that to work, because Aurora didn't have any additional rolling stock. A couple of years later, other manufacturers started offering N.
BLS53 Yep, that was it. Somehow $14 sticks in my head.
Yep, that was it. Somehow $14 sticks in my head.
Here's a July 1971 price list for Athearn:
http://hoseeker.net/AthearnBrochuresAds/athearnpartslist1971pg1.jpg
HOSeeker is a great website for looking up and at old model train information.
I don't recall AHM being a big player, I guess mainly because I haven't thought of them until this thread. In that era, I recall Atlas and Athearn being the affordable products, and all the stuff with European names being expensive. The big thing then for adult modelers with money, was imported brass steam locomotives. Wasn't there a Japanese company that's specialty was brass steam?
7j43k BLS53 I had either an Atlas or Athearn (can't remember which) IC GP (think it was a GP-30), and that was about it. Probably an Athearn GP35: I thought it a rather elegant paint scheme. Ed
BLS53 I had either an Atlas or Athearn (can't remember which) IC GP (think it was a GP-30), and that was about it.
I had either an Atlas or Athearn (can't remember which) IC GP (think it was a GP-30), and that was about it.
Probably an Athearn GP35:
I thought it a rather elegant paint scheme.
Yep, that was it. Somehow $14 sticks in my head. A lot of money for a 12 year old in 1965. I think that was the most expensive loco I had. The only other one I remember was a Pennsy F7, that was driven by a rubberband. I think it lasted a couple of weeks. I had a nice Walthers heavy weight Pullman in Tuscan Red to go with it. That was the extent of my passenger train.
Used to order stuff from a big mail order hobby shop in NYC. They always ran a big 2 page ad in MR every month. Had to clip out an order form and send in a money order. Different days and different ways.
Is AHM still with us today?
rrinker AHM made...
AHM made...
I don't think AHM ever "made" anything. I think they were importers, bringing in product from various manufacturers. Which establishes, among other things, that one shouldn't blame the manufacturer of the E8 for the problems with a C-liner.
AHM made that C-Liner in Reading yellow and green, tooo. The only true FM locos Reading had were Trainmasters. Never a C-Liner or anything, and certainly not in the second gen paint scheme.
7j43k BLS53 #4022 was actually an E8 on the IC. Sounds like maybe AHM wanted to model an E in all those road names, and ran into to some sort of licensing issue or something with EMD. So they came up with the idea to do a F-M instead. F-M was either out of business by then, or didn't care. I don't think so. More likely random chance combined with "what paint scheme will sell". AHM was sort of an importer. The E was made by Rivarossi. The F-M was "someone else". I'm pretty sure that the manufacturers chose any paint scheme they wanted and shipped the product to the US. Rivarossi did the E in IC later. I counted three on Ebay right now. One is numbered 4022. Ed
BLS53 #4022 was actually an E8 on the IC. Sounds like maybe AHM wanted to model an E in all those road names, and ran into to some sort of licensing issue or something with EMD. So they came up with the idea to do a F-M instead. F-M was either out of business by then, or didn't care.
#4022 was actually an E8 on the IC.
Sounds like maybe AHM wanted to model an E in all those road names, and ran into to some sort of licensing issue or something with EMD. So they came up with the idea to do a F-M instead. F-M was either out of business by then, or didn't care.
I don't think so. More likely random chance combined with "what paint scheme will sell".
AHM was sort of an importer. The E was made by Rivarossi. The F-M was "someone else". I'm pretty sure that the manufacturers chose any paint scheme they wanted and shipped the product to the US.
Rivarossi did the E in IC later. I counted three on Ebay right now. One is numbered 4022.
Yeah, most of the good IC stuff came along after I was out of the hobby. It was generally hard to find in the early to mid 1960's. I had either an Atlas or Athearn (can't remember which) IC GP (think it was a GP-30), and that was about it. I used to marvel at the guys in the magazine, who could paint and detail models to their liking.
7j43k Sounds like an AHM item: That's it. I figured this would be easy for you guys. I vaguely remember the AHM brand.
Sounds like an AHM item:
That's it. I figured this would be easy for you guys. I vaguely remember the AHM brand.