I have some experience with live loads on friends' layouts. There's the obvious difference in the weight of the train and the pulling power of an engine when the cars are full vs. empty.
Sloppy, careless railroading can mean derailments, and that's a real problem. You certainly have to avoid anything that conducts electricity, or which might damage your cars due to a chemical reaction or excessive weight.
I can say from experience that there's something special about seeing a coal car that has been weathered through the natural process of hauling real coal. Obviously the effect needs to be enhanced by adding the appearance of dust.
Tom
Wow, looks like a lot of work.
1. I'm "modeling" in the steam era and have lots of boxcars in my trains. Are they loaded or empty? I'm not sure that matters.
2. So far as obtaining and crushing one's own ballast or ore cargo--I would simply buy ballast from Arizona Rock and Mineral or one of the other companies that have it already made in colors and sizes appropriate for certain railroads of my particular interest. It's faster and easier.
John
OldSchoolScratchbuilder After reading doctorwayne's experience, I'll wrap up this thread. Any noteworthy developments on my continuing lifetime experiment will be posted.
After reading doctorwayne's experience, I'll wrap up this thread. Any noteworthy developments on my continuing lifetime experiment will be posted.
Check your "Messages" OldSchoolScratchbuilder.
Wayne
The prototype uses deisel-electrics to haul all these types of "live" loads, and some mining railroads used electric traction. Are model electronics any more susceptible? You can't argue with the realism of live loads.
I first went to Nova Scotia in 1979. The provence was practically ringed with rail back then. Sad to see how much has been lost. I was glad I rode the Cape Bretton VIA tour train (in 2001) before that ended.
My gondola filled with scrap metal gathered from Nova Scotia road and highway shoulders. LOL again. Nice to know I am not alone in my interest in using real materials.
doctorwayne My tests were as I mentioned previously, and I saw no reason for alarm or worry about using "real" materials for scenery or live loads, although a little common sense is always a good idea.
Agreed 100%. My gondola filled with the scraps of Atlantic Ocean driftwood LOL ...
richhotrain OldSchoolScratchbuilder RR_Mel I have several HO locomotives with well over a thousand hours of run time. I am not testing the lifetime of locomotives themselves - of course there is no need. I am testing the locomotives running in a layout environment that uses real iron, sulphur, carbon, salt and powders made from various rocks, minerals, and other natural materials. I just re-read this thread and realized that I had missed this when I asked, what do you mean by lifetime testing. So, you are conducting this experiment to test the adverse effect on your locomotives and rolling stock? Hmmm, I think that I will stick with fake loads. Rich
OldSchoolScratchbuilder
I am not testing the lifetime of locomotives themselves - of course there is no need. I am testing the locomotives running in a layout environment that uses real iron, sulphur, carbon, salt and powders made from various rocks, minerals, and other natural materials.
I just re-read this thread and realized that I had missed this when I asked, what do you mean by lifetime testing.
So, you are conducting this experiment to test the adverse effect on your locomotives and rolling stock?
Hmmm, I think that I will stick with fake loads.
Rich
(3) Coal Nova Scotia has a long history of coal mining. A real operational (animated) coal mine will be built for my layout. I will be going down into a coal mine on a tour in May. The coal in these test track hoppers is from a few nice lumps found on the beach in Parrsboro on the Bay of Fundy. Tomorrow I will be on a full day field trial around the coal seams of Chignecto Bay, Nova Scotia. I can make coal particles much smaller just like I described for gypsum.
OldSchoolScratchbuilder RR_Mel I have several HO locomotives with well over a thousand hours of run time. I am not testing the lifetime of locomotives themselves - of course there is no need. I am testing the locomotives running in a layout environment that uses real iron, sulphur, carbon, salt and powders made from various rocks, minerals, and other natural materials.
RR_Mel I have several HO locomotives with well over a thousand hours of run time.
Alton Junction
Thanks for posting this experiment-in-progress. It obviously merits little appeal to some here, but I have wondered about such things without bothering to set up an experiment. In my case, it's the durability of the drive mechanism that would be of interest as I read about a wide variance across many posts. However, your own interest is handily laid out for us, and I will be interested to read of your findings. I use local beach sand (east coast of Vancouver Island) for my ballast and have no regrets. I don't have real loads, but I have some chunks of local anthracite that will probably end up in a gondola or two. So, have at 'er!
One caveat that would also be something I would want to keep an eye on is the 'price' of the heavier natural loads on the bearing cones in the plastic Delrin trucks on the rolling stock. Again, it's hearsay, but I have read that the plastic won't stand up for long. Is it so? Would a lube of some kind, say a molybdenum or graphite work, white lithium, Dextron III Mercon ATF (as I was convinced to use years go), extend the lives of the cones?
-Crandell
Each test track has a hopper car load. That's it for shale.
Time to replenish my fine shale supplies.
Shale bedrock used by the company to pile real Nova Scotia scrap metal.
This is a shale outcrop that will eventually have soil and moss on top.
Walton shale will be used everywhere in my layout to build up rail beds and to lay track ballast. This was an early work up at my metal scrapyard - much more refined now. There are no giant boulders on the tracks now that I have a better technique for laying down ballast.
2. Shale Shale is also found in many places in my real Nova Scotia layout area. Shale is often found in sheets like the one shown in my hand. This piece was collected off the shale beach in Walton. Shale is even easier to work with than gypsum and can be processed using all the techniques I discussed for gypsum. I use shale more than any other natural material in my layout work. It is used for rail beds and track ballast, buttresses and foundations, roofing to simulate a New England style slate roofing for example, bedrock, ground cover, scenery, and hopper loads. The piece in my hand is slated for the roof of my feed and seed plant.
OldSchoolScratchbuilder ATLANTIC CENTRAL Its broad appeal to other modelers is questionable. First off, "free" assumes that it exists in a location/situation where a person is allowed to "remove" it. Second, for many of us modeling time is a valueable resource, so taking time for this operation would hardly be free, it would effect our ability to focus on other aspects of our modeling - not unlike cutting down a tree to mill lumber to build bench work - I think most lack the tools or situation that would make that practical In Nova Scotia rock and mineral collecting is permitted by the Government. This is in writing on some of their public documents. Private property I get permission like the barite silos in Walton. You can even sell what you find at rockhounding shows, etc. I am not trying to appeal to modellers. I am presenting what I do. Working with natural materials is my valuable modelling time. BTW, I do use real trees to make all the lumber in my structures! This is called fine woodworking and artwork. My username says old school and that is exactly what I do. With the exceptions of trains, tracks and electronics, my modelling scenery predates the invention of commercial plastics. All my scenery is handmade primarily from wood, stone and glue.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Its broad appeal to other modelers is questionable. First off, "free" assumes that it exists in a location/situation where a person is allowed to "remove" it. Second, for many of us modeling time is a valueable resource, so taking time for this operation would hardly be free, it would effect our ability to focus on other aspects of our modeling - not unlike cutting down a tree to mill lumber to build bench work - I think most lack the tools or situation that would make that practical
Its broad appeal to other modelers is questionable. First off, "free" assumes that it exists in a location/situation where a person is allowed to "remove" it.
Second, for many of us modeling time is a valueable resource, so taking time for this operation would hardly be free, it would effect our ability to focus on other aspects of our modeling - not unlike cutting down a tree to mill lumber to build bench work - I think most lack the tools or situation that would make that practical
In Nova Scotia rock and mineral collecting is permitted by the Government. This is in writing on some of their public documents. Private property I get permission like the barite silos in Walton. You can even sell what you find at rockhounding shows, etc.
I am not trying to appeal to modellers. I am presenting what I do. Working with natural materials is my valuable modelling time. BTW, I do use real trees to make all the lumber in my structures! This is called fine woodworking and artwork. My username says old school and that is exactly what I do. With the exceptions of trains, tracks and electronics, my modelling scenery predates the invention of commercial plastics. All my scenery is handmade primarily from wood, stone and glue.
Again, I understand, thanks for sharing.
While I have no interest in sifting minerals for car loads, or milling my own lumber to scratch build with, I am a very traditional modeler myself, doing a fair amount of kit bashing, scratch building, craftsman kit contruction, and using a fair amount of traditional materials. Only a small percentage of my rolling stock is RTR, most buiilt from kits of one level or another.
As for scenery, I still use many methods that predate modern products like ground foam and plastic trees. I have made my share of wire and plaster tree trunks.
My point, everything need not be one extreem or the other, a blend of old a new can be very effective.
On that note in reverse, I do not use DCC, but rather choose to "roll my own" electronics with an Advanced Cab Control DC system of my own design with wireless radio throttles, which includes CTC and signaling.
Have fun, take care,
Sheldon
richhotrain What exactly do you mean by "lifetime" test(ing)? Rich
What exactly do you mean by "lifetime" test(ing)?
Rich, from what I read above, I believe others have cautioned the OP that having these raw materials near/in the trains may create a corrosive invironment. Surely too much of any salt just laying around may not be good.........
OldSchoolScratchbuilder ATLANTIC CENTRAL Respectfully I'm not sure I understand. Based on the photo above, I would not be interested in using this material. Regardless of other concerns, the size of the pieces is way too large to represent most anything carried in open hoppers. I have used this size so you can see it clearly. I can make any size, in fact, I have made gypsum as track ballast at HO scale. All my building foundations are made of 'concrete' - gypsum+binder. First advantage, it's free. I do not have to spend a penny. Second advantage, it's real. I will have an operational (animated) gypsum mine and quarry in my layout using real gypsum. I had a personal tour of the National Gypsum open pit mine in Milford a year or so ago. I will even make HO scale explosives that work - got to see that on my tour. Third advantage, it's my personal preference as a retired phyisicist with one of my daughters and her husband being geologists in Calgary. Fourth advantage, the theme of my layout is Nova Scotia geology. Fifth advantage, it's fun. Sixth advantage ... there are more. It's 1:00 am here in Nova Scotia but I had to get up to take a picture just for you. Is this better? I can even get smaller particle sizes if you like.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Respectfully I'm not sure I understand. Based on the photo above, I would not be interested in using this material. Regardless of other concerns, the size of the pieces is way too large to represent most anything carried in open hoppers.
Respectfully I'm not sure I understand. Based on the photo above, I would not be interested in using this material. Regardless of other concerns, the size of the pieces is way too large to represent most anything carried in open hoppers.
I have used this size so you can see it clearly. I can make any size, in fact, I have made gypsum as track ballast at HO scale. All my building foundations are made of 'concrete' - gypsum+binder.
First advantage, it's free. I do not have to spend a penny. Second advantage, it's real. I will have an operational (animated) gypsum mine and quarry in my layout using real gypsum. I had a personal tour of the National Gypsum open pit mine in Milford a year or so ago. I will even make HO scale explosives that work - got to see that on my tour. Third advantage, it's my personal preference as a retired phyisicist with one of my daughters and her husband being geologists in Calgary. Fourth advantage, the theme of my layout is Nova Scotia geology. Fifth advantage, it's fun. Sixth advantage ... there are more.
It's 1:00 am here in Nova Scotia but I had to get up to take a picture just for you. Is this better? I can even get smaller particle sizes if you like.
OK, fine, thanks for explaining. Obviously this suits your needs, interests and location, good luck.
Second, for many of us modeling time is a valueable resource, so taking time for this operation would hardly be free, it would effect our ability to focus on other aspects of our modeling - not unlike cutting down a tree to mill lumber to build bench work - I think most lack the tools or situation that would make that practical.
So good luck and have fun,
There are some cons - other than the qualities in the material itself - for using "real loads".
- Excess weight is often the biggest discouraging factor. It doesn't take many overweight cars to severely limit a given loco's hauling ability.
- Sooner or later an overweighted car of real product will derail and fall over, spreading the contents everywhere. I guess if one has a "plywood central" its no big deal, but those that have beautifully scenicked right of way - well that is another story.
- Often, the "real thing" just doesn't look right on our layouts. That's subjective of course, but I've experienced it many times with various materials.
On the other hand, there is a solution that would work for many of us. By building a base of foam or cardboard or whatever that would fit in the car, and covering that base with adhesive, the real material could be applied and shaped to the builders content. This would significantly reduce weight, eliminate the trauma of spillage, and allow the cars to be handled at will.
For what its worth....the above all came from experience.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
And finally, very fine particulate gypsum which I have used for filler and track ballast.
Gypsum powder sifted out.
Here is my homemade DavidsTea fine grain sieve.
All white particles here are gypsum. I can even go smaller than what you see in this picture. The gypsum powder in the test tubes (earlier photo) also contain very fine particles. For example, all I have to do is wash away or sift away the powder and I will be left with tiny grains that look like beach sand. There is also real Nova Scotia coal, sandstone, and shale in this sorter.