Trains.com

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

60163 'Tornado' Hits 100 MPH

6551 views
29 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    April 2015
  • 127 posts
Posted by Mheetu on Friday, April 14, 2017 5:36 PM

andrechapelon

 

 
BRAKIE
 
Sir Madog
Unfortunately, there is no F7 left to join the ranks of "high speed" steam engines still operating in the 21st century. If you want to enjoy travelling at speeds above your average Amtrak train, you will have to come to Europe to ride behind the A1 "Tornado", the A4 "Mallard" or DR 18 201.

 

There's several F7s left..I suspect NS F9s 4270 and 4271 could easily hit 100 mph even though they are rated at 90mph..

 

 

 

 

 

Er, uh, Larry, the F7's being referred to were built by ALCO (in 1937), not EMD and were steam, not diesel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_Road_class_F7

Andre

 

 

not sure how old or how fast the F7 is going but it looks quick in this video 

https://youtu.be/4yud2JavPuw?t=44s

 

  • Member since
    August 2011
  • From: A Comfy Cave, New Zealand
  • 6,247 posts
Posted by "JaBear" on Friday, April 14, 2017 2:55 PM
Come on Guys, I think that we’re starting to miss the whole point of this story.
 
 “Tornado” breaking the ton is certainly newsworthy, but in reality, what I get from this story is that a lot of institutional knowledge has been lost.
 
That back in the day, engine men, worldwide have had to run their locomotives at “high” speeds to maintain tight schedules was a rather “ho hum” affair.
 
I rather suspect that whether records were broken, or not, was of little consequence to them, compared to the quiet pride of getting the job done.

My 2 CentsCheers, the Bear.

"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 14, 2017 1:49 PM

DrW

 

 
Sir Madog
I am sorry, but there is no officially accepted record of the F7 reaching that speed. I don´t doubt it could have done and most likely did speeds of 120+mph, but those speed were never officially acknowledged.

History´s 10 Fastest Steam Engines

 

Not all numbers on this list are official either.  For #9, it says "inofficially"; for #3, a "claimed" 115 mph.

 

OMG, picking nits, aren´t you?

Here is a link to wikipedia, scroll down for steam engines

  • Member since
    October 2001
  • From: OH
  • 17,574 posts
Posted by BRAKIE on Friday, April 14, 2017 1:47 PM

andrechapelon
Er, uh, Larry, the F7's being referred to were built by ALCO (in 1937), not EMD and were steam, not diesel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_Road_class_F7 Andre

OOPS! EmbarrassedDunce  Better have my coffee before joining in on this type of topic.

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt  Safety First!"

DrW
  • Member since
    January 2008
  • From: Lubbock, TX
  • 371 posts
Posted by DrW on Friday, April 14, 2017 1:17 PM

Sir Madog
I am sorry, but there is no officially accepted record of the F7 reaching that speed. I don´t doubt it could have done and most likely did speeds of 120+mph, but those speed were never officially acknowledged.

History´s 10 Fastest Steam Engines

Not all numbers on this list are official either.  For #9, it says "inofficially"; for #3, a "claimed" 115 mph.

  • Member since
    April 2011
  • 649 posts
Posted by LensCapOn on Friday, April 14, 2017 11:20 AM

andrechapelon

 

 
BRAKIE
 
Sir Madog
Unfortunately, there is no F7 left to join the ranks of "high speed" steam engines still operating in the 21st century. If you want to enjoy travelling at speeds above your average Amtrak train, you will have to come to Europe to ride behind the A1 "Tornado", the A4 "Mallard" or DR 18 201.

 

There's several F7s left..I suspect NS F9s 4270 and 4271 could easily hit 100 mph even though they are rated at 90mph..

 

 

 

 

 

Er, uh, Larry, the F7's being referred to were built by ALCO (in 1937), not EMD and were steam, not diesel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_Road_class_F7

Andre

 

Hey even I caught the joke, and enjoyed it!

 

And I'm kind of slow. (Unlike a Milwaukee F-7 Baltic)

  • Member since
    September 2002
  • From: California & Maine
  • 3,848 posts
Posted by andrechapelon on Friday, April 14, 2017 9:58 AM

LensCapOn
 
Sir Madog

The Milwaukee Road F7 is said to be capable of speeds in excess of 100mph, but there is no record of proof for that. However, F6 #6402 was officially clocked at 103.5 on July 20th, 1934. There is certainly no doubt that the F7 could achieve that as well.

 

 

You sir, need to read more. There is lots of documentation of the F-7 doing 120 mph or more. It's just that the timing method was short of offical standards (stop watch for one). Even Trains magazine had some timed trips back in the day. (note to self: examine my Trains collection DVD) The F-7 was a legend in it's day and well known for it's extreme speed. The 84" drivers were not for show. It. Booked.

What's your point? I was told by someone I know to be an expert on the SP that a GS-4 hit 125mph on the Nevada desert when it took over from ailing diesels on the "City Of San Francisco" sometime in the early 1950's. It was never officially confirmed. While I'd like to believe that story, in the absence of corroborating evidence, I'm taking that story with a grain of salt.

As for the 84" drivers of the F7, ex Deutsche Reichsbahn 4-6-2 18 201 has drivers of 91" diameter. A Great Northern (UK) Stirling Single (4-2-2) had drivers in excess of 8 feet in diameter, NYC&HR 4-4-0 999 had 86" drivers and both the Santa Fe 3460 class and C&NW E-4 had 4-6-4's with the same driver diameter as the MILW F7.

Andre

 

 

It's really kind of hard to support your local hobby shop when the nearest hobby shop that's worth the name is a 150 mile roundtrip.
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 14, 2017 9:42 AM

I am sorry, but there is no officially accepted record of the F7 reaching that speed. I don´t doubt it could have done and most likely did speeds of 120+mph, but those speed were never officially acknowledged.

History´s 10 Fastest Steam Engines

That´s all I am saying, nothing more, but nothing less!

Maybe it helps to take the lens cap off and risk a look over the fence.

  • Member since
    September 2002
  • From: California & Maine
  • 3,848 posts
Posted by andrechapelon on Friday, April 14, 2017 9:30 AM

BRAKIE
 
Sir Madog
Unfortunately, there is no F7 left to join the ranks of "high speed" steam engines still operating in the 21st century. If you want to enjoy travelling at speeds above your average Amtrak train, you will have to come to Europe to ride behind the A1 "Tornado", the A4 "Mallard" or DR 18 201.

 

There's several F7s left..I suspect NS F9s 4270 and 4271 could easily hit 100 mph even though they are rated at 90mph..

 

 

 

Er, uh, Larry, the F7's being referred to were built by ALCO (in 1937), not EMD and were steam, not diesel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_Road_class_F7

Andre

It's really kind of hard to support your local hobby shop when the nearest hobby shop that's worth the name is a 150 mile roundtrip.
  • Member since
    April 2011
  • 649 posts
Posted by LensCapOn on Friday, April 14, 2017 8:43 AM

Sir Madog

The Milwaukee Road F7 is said to be capable of speeds in excess of 100mph, but there is no record of proof for that. However, F6 #6402 was officially clocked at 103.5 on July 20th, 1934. There is certainly no doubt that the F7 could achieve that as well.

You sir, need to read more. There is lots of documentation of the F-7 doing 120 mph or more. It's just that the timing method was short of offical standards (stop watch for one). Even Trains magazine had some timed trips back in the day. (note to self: examine my Trains collection DVD) The F-7 was a legend in it's day and well known for it's extreme speed. The 84" drivers were not for show. It. Booked.

  • Member since
    October 2001
  • From: OH
  • 17,574 posts
Posted by BRAKIE on Friday, April 14, 2017 4:21 AM

Sir Madog
Unfortunately, there is no F7 left to join the ranks of "high speed" steam engines still operating in the 21st century. If you want to enjoy travelling at speeds above your average Amtrak train, you will have to come to Europe to ride behind the A1 "Tornado", the A4 "Mallard" or DR 18 201.

There's several F7s left..I suspect NS F9s 4270 and 4271 could easily hit 100 mph even though they are rated at 90mph..

 

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt  Safety First!"

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 14, 2017 1:36 AM

The Milwaukee Road F7 is said to be capable of speeds in excess of 100mph, but there is no record of proof for that. However, F6 #6402 was officially clocked at 103.5 on July 20th, 1934. There is certainly no doubt that the F7 could achieve that as well.

Unfortunately, there is no F7 left to join the ranks of "high speed" steam engines still operating in the 21st century. If you want to enjoy travelling at speeds above your average Amtrak train, you will have to come to Europe to ride behind the A1 "Tornado", the A4 "Mallard" or DR 18 201.

  • Member since
    April 2011
  • 649 posts
Posted by LensCapOn on Thursday, April 13, 2017 9:09 PM

Sir Madog

 

 
LensCapOn

Milwaukee Road class F7's laugh at your 100 mph.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_Road_class_F7

 

 

 

Gresley´s LNER A4 Pacific "Mallard" holds the world´s speed record of 126 mph and still runs, while F7´s are only a faint memory of a time long gone!

I was mostly laughing at the treatment of a 100 mph speed by a steam engine. While impressive it was a speed well within capacity of late steam. As for the F-7, there is lots of documentation that they blasted past 120mph daily before the WWII speed restriction. How fast they actually were was never documented but suspect they could have beaten 126mph.

And since Kalmbach is a Milwaukee company, and I'm a Milwaukee resident my side on this is clear.Smile*

 

*(and keep talking about the Mallard and I'll start muttering about Orange Sauce..)

  • Member since
    February 2005
  • From: Vancouver Island, BC
  • 23,330 posts
Posted by selector on Thursday, April 13, 2017 7:54 PM

The Pennsy tested a J at 100 mph or slightly better, but at one point it burnt a valve due to improper lubrication.  The Pennsy later opted to build their T1 Duplex.  There is no doubt that a J with larger and well-balance drivers and gear, still with roller bearings, and maybe with poppet valves, would have run consistently well at much higher speeds.  It's boiler could certainly meet the requirement.

I could be wrong, but I have read that the speed record for N. American steam powered locomotives apparently came during a Westhinghouse air pump and brake test.   They needed an engine that could haul major butt, so they selected a CPR Jubilee 4-4-4.  It attained an indicated speed of 112.5 mph before they applied the brakes.  I'm sure a T1 could easily have surpassed that, probably near 125-130 on really good track.  With poppets, the T1 could retain its horsepower at higher cycles of the piston than on a conventional valve system such as Walschaerts or its improved version, Pilliod/Baker.  They were toying with the idea of fitting a Jubilee with poppets for the same reason.

  • Member since
    August 2010
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 8,955 posts
Posted by Firelock76 on Thursday, April 13, 2017 7:34 PM

Back in the N&W steam days an engineer running a Class J (maybe 611, maybe not) down the "racetrack" between Petersburg and Norfolk Virginia got it up to 115 mph, briefly, then slowed it down to a more conservative 70 mph.

Class J's could fly and hit 100 easily, but they really weren't supposed to be run that fast.  It does show how brilliant those designers in Roanoke Shops were! 

  • Member since
    September 2014
  • 237 posts
Posted by JEREMY CENTANNI on Thursday, April 13, 2017 4:13 PM

Wonder what 611 could do wide open.  Over a 100 is a certainty.

Same goes for 844 and that's from Steve Lee's mouth when asked about how fast has it gone and a non committal answer.

  • Member since
    February 2005
  • From: Vancouver Island, BC
  • 23,330 posts
Posted by selector on Thursday, April 13, 2017 12:38 PM

All railroads did their best to maintain both 'flow' and schedules.  It's the way they kept motivated customers.  Sometimes, they have to push their equipment.  There are numerous stories, on both sides of the Atlantic, all credible, that indicate steam locomotives were pushed well beyond the rated speed for the track, often as much as 20-30 mph higher.  One story in Trains about 25 years ago tells of a Pennsy T1 having to do about 115 mph between two stops judged solely on the times of departure and arrival, and it was the road foreman who said as much to the crew when he had them appear in his office.  Rather than be hostile, he said, "Good job, boys."

It is well known that NYC's Hudsons and Niagaras blasted through their routes in order to claw themselves back to a schedule. So did Penny's K variants with their 80" drivers, and so did all the other Northerns, Pacifics, Atlantics, and other high-stepping locomotives when their masters commanded them to. I just wish I had been aboard one of them.   I'd even offer to hand-dress the corners of the firebox. Cool

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 13, 2017 9:46 AM

LensCapOn

Milwaukee Road class F7's laugh at your 100 mph.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_Road_class_F7

 

Gresley´s LNER A4 Pacific "Mallard" holds the world´s speed record of 126 mph and still runs, while F7´s are only a faint memory of a time long gone!

 

  • Member since
    September 2002
  • From: California & Maine
  • 3,848 posts
Posted by andrechapelon on Thursday, April 13, 2017 9:18 AM

SouthPenn

I would love to see a video of the valve mechanism and drive rods at that speed.Big Smile

 

It's not 100 MPH, but here's a look at the valve gear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BALKTyY9_9Y

Andre

It's really kind of hard to support your local hobby shop when the nearest hobby shop that's worth the name is a 150 mile roundtrip.
  • Member since
    September 2002
  • From: California & Maine
  • 3,848 posts
Posted by andrechapelon on Thursday, April 13, 2017 9:15 AM

LensCapOn

Milwaukee Road class F7's laugh at your 100 mph.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_Road_class_F7

 

When you've got an operational F7 doing 100 MPH in 2017, then you can laugh.

Andre

It's really kind of hard to support your local hobby shop when the nearest hobby shop that's worth the name is a 150 mile roundtrip.
  • Member since
    April 2011
  • 649 posts
Posted by LensCapOn on Thursday, April 13, 2017 9:08 AM

Milwaukee Road class F7's laugh at your 100 mph.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_Road_class_F7

  • Member since
    March 2015
  • 1,358 posts
Posted by SouthPenn on Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:28 AM

I would love to see a video of the valve mechanism and drive rods at that speed.Big Smile

South Penn
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 13, 2017 6:26 AM

At last, the former Deutsche Reichsbahn class 18 201 has found a stable mate! 18 201 is registered for speeds up to 180 kph and frequently does "revenue runs" exceeding 160 kph (100mph).

 

  • Member since
    August 2011
  • From: A Comfy Cave, New Zealand
  • 6,247 posts
Posted by "JaBear" on Thursday, April 13, 2017 6:20 AM

hon30critter
........ but I have to wonder how reasonable it would be to run the locomotive at it's maximum on a regular basis.

Dave, I’m going to make the sweeping statement that it’s very reasonable, and I’d suggest, that to keep their schedules, many of the steam hauled "named" passenger trains in the UK, North America, and Europe had to be capable of reaching and sustaining high speeds. 
   
 Of course, there are a number of factors that have to be taken into consideration such as the condition of the permanent way, i.e. track maintenance, grade and curvature: the condition and design of the locomotive, and the weight and condition of the passenger cars on the drawbar.

Cheers, the Bear.Smile

"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: Bradford, Ontario
  • 15,797 posts
Posted by hon30critter on Thursday, April 13, 2017 3:02 AM

7j43k
Was I mistaken, or was the loco kinda bouncing when it came through that station.  If so, maybe some shock absorbers might be a good idea.

Ed,

I don't think you were mistaken. The view of the inside of the cab clearly showed that things were rockin' and rollin' quite noticeably. I think it is wonderful that they were able to get the Tornado to go that fast, but I have to wonder how reasonable it would be to run the locomotive at it's maximum on a regular basis. Why tempt fate?

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

  • Member since
    May 2004
  • 7,500 posts
Posted by 7j43k on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 11:38 PM

OK.

A wonderful thing.

But.

Was I mistaken, or was the loco kinda bouncing when it came through that station.  If so, maybe some shock absorbers might be a good idea.

 

Ed

  • Member since
    August 2010
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 8,955 posts
Posted by Firelock76 on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 8:36 PM

How-cool-was-THAT?

STEAM RULES!

  • Member since
    August 2003
  • From: Collinwood, Ohio, USA
  • 16,367 posts
Posted by gmpullman on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 8:30 PM

Outstanding!

And the pick quote I came away with?

"Rather than champagne the crew was gasping for a cuppa" Yes

I love it!

Ed

  • Member since
    May 2004
  • 7,500 posts
Posted by 7j43k on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 8:26 PM

Congratulations to all concerned!!

A lovely locomotive.

Of course, I do hope we over here can build a T1 and see what it can do.

 

 

Ed

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

Users Online

There are no community member online

Search the Community

ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
Model Railroader Newsletter See all
Sign up for our FREE e-newsletter and get model railroad news in your inbox!