I do not think copyright would apply here. What the ebay guy is doing is no different than the guy who buys wrecked cars and parts them out.
Well, maybe, Paul. The copyright thing would be very hard to prove and there have been several folks on here (the forum) that "kitbash" brass loco's with mixed media (i.e., plastic trailing trucks, ladders, etc.)
Chris
PRR_in_AZ I guess I'm missing the point. If I had a brass loco of some rare prototype and decided to part it up. Doesn't it make sense to disassemble the loco to parts, cast the parts in resin, keep the originals and keep selling the resin castings over and over. I mean, if someone is buying the parts to re-create a certain prototype loco, then they probably aren't going to care if the detail part is resin, brass, or plastic cause they are most likely going to paint and re-letter the loco. The whole concept is weird to me since there are plenty of brass castings still around. Why ruin a perfectly good assembled model. Not me! Chris
I guess I'm missing the point. If I had a brass loco of some rare prototype and decided to part it up. Doesn't it make sense to disassemble the loco to parts, cast the parts in resin, keep the originals and keep selling the resin castings over and over. I mean, if someone is buying the parts to re-create a certain prototype loco, then they probably aren't going to care if the detail part is resin, brass, or plastic cause they are most likely going to paint and re-letter the loco. The whole concept is weird to me since there are plenty of brass castings still around. Why ruin a perfectly good assembled model. Not me!
Well, at least 2 problems that I see.
First, you're probably in violation of the the copyright laws since your copying someone else's work and selling it.
Second, if you're modifying/building a brass locomotive, you probably want brass parts for it.
Paul
Once a person buys something it is their property to do with as they wish. If they buy the most elaborate and expensive brass steam loco available and run a steam roller over it, that is their right.
Nobody's forcing anybody to bid thirty bucks for a drawbar.
"A ______ and his _______ are soon _____ ." You have three minutes. Ready, set, GO!
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
This practice isn't exclusive to brass:
Here is a gent parting out an N scale Kato Mike. With two days-plus to go the sum of parts is already over a hundred dollars.
The draw-bar alone is presently at $30!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/N-Scale-Kato-Mikado-Parts-Draw-Bar-assy-/332185582380?hash=item4d57cdbb2c:g:cvQAAOSwRUhY9Afk
Even the front and rear tender trucks are offered as each, not a pair. (Click "see seller's other items" and scroll down).
So goes the marketplace...
Regards, Ed
There are Crowns I would like to own, but some now have also been handled a good bit and may require a little TLC due to their age. That does not mean I won't go there; I just tend to look for some newer, more highly detailed models more.
I ain't that guy.
For the record, I am not the fellow who parts out brass on eBay. Since we are in the same county and 3 miles apart, several at the last Timonium show and now that I began this thread, assumed this was me. I repeat....I am not "bbgameboy".
I purchase from time to time on eBay, but do not sell.
HZ
Howard,
Nope, I'm still here!
Roger Huber
Deer Creek Locomotive Works
The Crown series from PFM have not come and gone.....they are still among us, but what has come and gone are the folks who appricate these fine models.
Regarding "engine desecration": There was a time when "Crown" series models were valuable simply because they were "Crowns". Those days have come and gone.
I would only find acceptable that work, done to good quality standards, that "enhances" or makes the completed model somehow "more accurate" or a better representation of a specific engine at a specific time. Otherwise, to me, anything else relatively devalues the model.
I do think the "better" stuff being made currently is essentially a form of fine art, and that is why I generally don't mess with or otherwise alter them. I know there will be somebody who comes along after me, who will appreciate a more stock appearance of whatever it is that I leave behind for them.
Yes, they are the owners' to do whatever with so long as he is alive, whatever he pleases, hack it up into little pieces if you want. But there will always be those collectors who will pay more for pristine and original condition. That's just how the market is. If the collector chooses to ascribe a certain value to pristine originals, then those who made other choices about what to do with their models should not care or gripe about what a collector might choose. It's a free country, regardless of the choice made with these "toys".
I can only speculate on the reasons for parting them out. In some cases, it looks like much of a complete locomotive, and that parts are not necessarily selling, but...I really don't know.
Sheldon--
Yes, you are technically correct that buying and selling trains is not "part of the hobby" but there are things we all do to facilitate the hobby. I have met many who do consider themselves to be model railroaders, who routinely buy and sell to feed their "train habit" er addiction, as I am attempting to do.
I know one guy, a college instructor, whose nickname has been "100 dollar Bill" because he typically would never spend more than $100 on a brass steam engine. He has a special gift for befriending people right before they kick-off, and then their wives sell to him for cheap. So he routinely buys 20 brass items at a shot, sells most on Ebay quickly to cover his costs, and keeps one or two pieces for himself as the "profit". I watched him do it over and over again.
He then strips, re-details, or otherwise modifies the models he keeps to represent a specific road number of a specific engine at a specific time, and completes the painting and weathering.
His west Texas prototype centered layout has been featured in Model Railroader, and on the cover.
He buys, fixes, strips, paints for other people, and sells--anything that will make him some extra cash to spend on his hobbies, and he enjoys that work, limited only by the amount of spare time he has.
John
Howard Zane Years back on eBay there was a parted Virginian AE 2-10-10-2 which is almost at the top of the "endangered species" list. I won the boiler with cab, but missed the tender with trucks, boiler front, front and rear loco trucks, and entire mechanism. Contacting the other winners did not work, so no, I'm not a fan of parting in any form. Possilby had I bid higher....but when the cost of all the components were added plus time to reassemble.............nah! HZ
Years back on eBay there was a parted Virginian AE 2-10-10-2 which is almost at the top of the "endangered species" list. I won the boiler with cab, but missed the tender with trucks, boiler front, front and rear loco trucks, and entire mechanism.
Contacting the other winners did not work, so no, I'm not a fan of parting in any form. Possilby had I bid higher....but when the cost of all the components were added plus time to reassemble.............nah!
Your post describes one of the reasons I don’t like the practice of parting out brass models. If the model is all there but just in pieces in different auctions, it makes it very difficult for a person looking for a complete model.
If the loco is seriously damaged or incomplete, it makes some sense to sell it as parts. If the loco is functional and all the parts are there, then parting it out seems to me at the very least, to be a cynical move designed to maximize profit at the expense of a buyer who might want a complete loco. Unless you pay exorbitant prices to ensure you win all the auctions for the parts (to make sure you get ALL of the loco) you are likely to get a partial locomotive…I know that there are people who kit bash who see these auctions as opportunities to buy just what they need, but there are (IMHO) better ways to acquire parts for less money…
While I’m not crazy about this phenomenon, I don’t lose any sleep over it. I don’t bid in those auctions. I am also of the camp that buys brass to run and I am not averse to modifying a brass model to get a good runner.
My two cents,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Do the parts sell?Then what they're doing is right by the only standard that matters in commerce.Personally I've never been a member of the Church of Worshipping Brass. They're toy trains. Nice toy trains perhaps, but toy trains.I remember back in the early 60s somebody did an article on superdetailng a brass Big Boy. More than a few people wrote in ******** about this guy "desecrating" a brass engine, even though the finished project was noticably more realisitic.
PRR8259 I have seen some rare models come up on Ebay for sale, that had been "altered" by the seller, and one was a model I would have wanted had it not been modified, but being rare sometimes does not make it valuable at all. There are Texas & Pacific steamers that are rare, but because they are Texas & Pacific, by definition, not everybody needs one and they can be tough to sell. When you are looking for them, they are tough to find--anywhere--but when you go to sell...meh. I think the completed, operable models are "art" in themselves, and perhaps there might be cirumstances where a damaged model would be parted out rather than fixed. It's just not something I would want to do. Although everything I have gets played with and used on the layout, I do believe in trying to keep models as intact and pristine looking as possible, so they are handled carefully, because some future owner will be thankful for that. I'm learning to take full advantage of bargain brass models and flip them for profit, to use those profits for other model train purchases. I recently saved $500 by buying just one that I really wanted low ($655 below market value) and selling another that I didn't need that much at a higher price point (it sold in 1/2 hour on Ebay). That's real money back in my pocket. I do not appreciate the apparent negativity toward some of us who choose to buy/sell/trade these models. If I can do it to make a little extra here or there, I'm going to. In fact, the only way I'm going to afford some of the super articulateds (in the above $2000 price range) that I'd like to have is going to be by doing a few trades for profit along the way. John
I have seen some rare models come up on Ebay for sale, that had been "altered" by the seller, and one was a model I would have wanted had it not been modified, but being rare sometimes does not make it valuable at all. There are Texas & Pacific steamers that are rare, but because they are Texas & Pacific, by definition, not everybody needs one and they can be tough to sell. When you are looking for them, they are tough to find--anywhere--but when you go to sell...meh.
I think the completed, operable models are "art" in themselves, and perhaps there might be cirumstances where a damaged model would be parted out rather than fixed. It's just not something I would want to do.
Although everything I have gets played with and used on the layout, I do believe in trying to keep models as intact and pristine looking as possible, so they are handled carefully, because some future owner will be thankful for that.
I'm learning to take full advantage of bargain brass models and flip them for profit, to use those profits for other model train purchases. I recently saved $500 by buying just one that I really wanted low ($655 below market value) and selling another that I didn't need that much at a higher price point (it sold in 1/2 hour on Ebay). That's real money back in my pocket.
I do not appreciate the apparent negativity toward some of us who choose to buy/sell/trade these models. If I can do it to make a little extra here or there, I'm going to. In fact, the only way I'm going to afford some of the super articulateds (in the above $2000 price range) that I'd like to have is going to be by doing a few trades for profit along the way.
John, don't confuse indifference with negativity...........
Buying and selling for fun or profit, is not model railroading, that is a seperate hobby I have no interest in regarding model trains. Buying and selling is just work to me, no matter the items.........
I have two brass locos, not new or rare, PFM USRA light Pacifics, bought long before there were any good plastic/discast offerings.
But I needed them to look more 1940's/50's and less 1925. So they got plastic Delta trailing trucks, Bachmann long haul tenders, and a few other little detail upgrades before being lettered ATLANTIC CENTRAL.
They run good, look good, and I don' t think of them any different than any other loco on the layout.
But without those changes, I would not want or need them..........
As for the original topic, it seems crazy that there would be much market for half of a brass loco, but who knows?
I won't be buying or selling anything like that.
Sheldon
Contacting the other winners did not work, so no, I'm not a fan of parting in any form. Possilby had I bid higher....but when the cost of all the components were added plus time to reassemble.............nah! Now a clunker....that is another story.
There must be a demand for the parts. Otherwise the guys who part out brass locomotives would have quit long ago.
I might disagree with the practice if all brass models were exceedingly rare, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Granted, there are some truly rare brass models, and we have to hope that the 'scrappers' are intelligent enough to appraise the assembled models before breaking them up, but if they are breaking up models that are not rare then so what? At least they are not melting them down!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
oldline1looking at the auctions these guys have going all the time I would say they weren't basket cases. They disassemble and sell the major components and small parts as individual auctions
Maybe those locos "fell off the truck".
A brass engine chop shop.
Where are Crockett and Tubbs when you need them?
I've also seen this same practice for more modern diesel locos, especially Athearn RTR, Atlas and Kato, seperated trucks, frames, body shells, and motor, and some freight cars. All the parts are all from the same seller, at different times.
I just see the ad and chuckle. The same with the ads I have seen for building kits. One seller had Plasticville kits, sold one wall at a time.
It's just BAU, on Ebay. I did send a question to a seller that had Roundhouse/MDC 50', side ladder tank cars, for sale, one piece at a time. He never responded.
Mike.
My You Tube
I don't hesitate to modify something like a Sunset PRR H10s 2-8-0 to resemble a particular loco. This can mean a new headlight, revised running boards, a new or modified tender, etc. There are a number of brass engines that I have modified like that. They tend to be the ones that were produced in great numbers, and are not unique. Modification of brass models is certainly not a new idea.
I have a couple brass models with horrible mechanisms, but nicely detailed boilers and tenders. I've determined that there is one very good and very comon brass model that can supply a perfect new mechanism. I'm in the market, and will have no qualms about doing the conversion when I get the parts together.
However, my urge to modify comes to a screeching halt when it comes to my W&R NKP (W&LE) 0-8-0, or my Challenger PRR M1 4-8-2, or my Challenger B&O EM-1 2-8-8-4. Those truly are works of art that shouldn't be tampered with.
If parts become available after a reasonable modification or rebuild, then it makes sense to make the parts available to somebody who can use them. If a model takes a one-way dive, you might as well salvage what you can. But destroying a true work of art just for the parts is somehow wrong, and I can't do it.
I guess it depends what you decide is too important to sacrifice.
Tom
Much like DoctorWayne, I am kit basher. And I too only own two brass locos, not extensively redetailed, but with different trailing trucks, Bachmann tenders, and freelance paint schemes.
Did I give any thought to their value before or after? No, it is virtually a given they will not be sold in my life time. When my son inherits them he is welcome to do with them as he pleases. But I will give him my trains just in case it proves important to him.
In my mind, no model train has value beyond the pleasure I get from building, modifiying, running and owning them. I bought them to play with, not as an investment.
If someone after me enjoys them fine, but I will need to die for them to find a new owner.......
As for people parting out brass, not sure I see the demand, but it is their business what they do with them - just like mine with Bachmann tenders......
I too have noticed these sellers. Its too bad they are parting out those models. I have also noticed a lot of engines and tenders offered seperately. About 10 years ago I bought a large local HO collection. The lot included 3 1950s American Flyer steam engines. They were in decent condition. I put them on eBay at about 60% of recent sales. They went unsold for weeks. Finally I offered the tenders seperately. Listed that way, all pieces sold the first time listed, bringing more than my initial price for engine and tender. Go figure!
Well, I think all models are an art form. Some are more finely detailed than others.
But I would think that the buyers of these parts are planning to build their own model with these. This would constitute a new art work. And it's not like their is only one model, there are several (sometimes many) of each made. So unlike say the Mona Lisa, we haven't lost an irreplaceable art work when some one cuts up a brass lcomotive.
BTW, cutting up a Picasso is probably an improvement
It's their property, and they can do as they wish with it. We can criticize all we want, but it isnt going to amount to a hill of beans.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
I'm somewhat in agreement with Kevin on this one, although I own only two brass locomotives. One has been re-motored, re-geared, and re-worked with new details not in keeping with its prototype, and its new cab is from a Bachmann loco. The other was modified to more closely match its particular prototype. Both have been re-painted, and I don't really care what their value might be to anyone else.I've also modified dozens of brass locos for others, sometimes simple repairs or new paint jobs, but often re-motoring, or re-detailing and sometimes stripping steam locos down to their bare boilers and building something quite different from their original appearance. They became whatever their owners wanted them to be.I don't see the sense, though, in cutting up such locomotives just to part-out whatever might be deemed useful. Pretty-well all of the detail parts that went on any brass model are still available from companies like Cal-Scale, Precision Scale, and Greenway Products. New, good quality motors can be had on-line at good prices, too.
Wayne
I get a fair bit of criticism from "brassies" now and again.
.
Every steam locomotive (except my EM-1) on the STRATTON & GILLETTE roster is brass. All have been disassembled, sometimes stripped of factory paint, redetailed, painted, and custom decals applied. Do I destroy them, sure. Do I enjoy them, yes. Whose are they, mine!
I have also purchased two brass running machanisms from these scrappers on ebay. I do not like distictive boilers like ATSF or Pennsylvania, but sometimes I need parts for a project. These guys do me a service. I save a little, they might make a little.
I see nothing sacred about brass, and I do not consider it art any more than I consider Kanye West's new album art. I buy brass because i runs well, is easy to repair, and already has adequate detail.
I would like to thank all the collectors for storing my brass for me until I was in a point in life where I could afford it. That was very kind of you.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Well, looking at the auctions these guys have going all the time I would say they weren't basket cases. They disassemble and sell the major components and small parts as individual auctions. The stuff I've seen all looks like it's in good condition. I personally dislike seeing them sold as pieces rather than whole locomotives. I wonder if they make enough from the parts as compared to a whole item? If you don't sell all the parts then they are really stuck with the rest. I just don't know. There are a couple people selling plastic structures the same way...........walls, roof, trim, etc. Kinda sucks to me!
My 2¢,