Kato has some good gears and a very free running motor, indeed. If they have LED headlights, the headlight should stay on when coasting, too. It does on my Baldwin switchers, they have a Canon, similar to if not the E22. While coasting, the headlight stays on as the motor is easily generating enough current to kep the LED lit.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Randy,
Just for the record.....the BLI SW7 I HAVE did not come with traction tires. Blackened metal drive wheels, which I took the black off. There was a fix someone said that worked and I had it saved in My files, but I can no longer view it. A lot of people were complaining about that engine at the time to BLI. I don't know if it was ever fixed or not. I believe now....that's when BLI put the traction tires on them, but really didn't fix the pick-up problem......don't know for sure.
BTW I have a couple of Kato RS2's that coast pretty far when You turn throttle off.
Take Care!
Frank
doctorwayne That problem may be traceable to the frog, not because it's not powered, but because the frog on some Atlas #6 turnouts is higher than the rest of the turnout.
That problem may be traceable to the frog, not because it's not powered, but because the frog on some Atlas #6 turnouts is higher than the rest of the turnout.
You may have the answer to my problem here Wayne. I once made the hypothesis that the problem was related to some characteristic of the Atlas #6 turnout but didn't check the height of the frog closely. I will have a closer look in the next days.
Guy
Modeling CNR in the 50's
The problem isn't DC vs DCC - it's that those BLI switchers have TRACTION TIRES dropping one set of wheels from picking up power. At one point they always came with an extra axle without traction tires that you could swap on for better pickup (but reduced piulling power). The bigger circuit board and speaker mean less space for weight, so the sound model is lighter than a similar DC only version.
It's not really mor sensitive to power loss. It's that on a DC loco, loss of power is an open circuit for the motor, meaning the flywheel can continue to spin it and the power generated does not resist the spinning - take one of those Stewart Baldwin switchers, from full throttle on DC they will cost a few feet, but if while costing you short the rails - instant stop. When the power drops to a decoder, the motor is connected back through the driver H-bridge which shorts the motor terminals together, same deal, instant brake.
Clean wheels and pickup wipers are just as important. Also see Frank's item about bypassing those rivet joints in the turnouts to make sure there is reliable power through the point blades and closure rails. The actual plastic part is small enough that there is absolutely no way all pickup wheels of an 8 wheel switcher will be on plastic at the same time. For the loco to stall means whichever wheels are NOT on the plastic are not getting power - either a loco issue or more likely a track issue. See where it stops, use a small screwdriver to bridge things like the point to closure rail gap if one truck is sitting on the points, on the same side as the frog. If it moves, there's your problem, and a flexible jumper between the closure rails and points will definitely help.
I wasn't going to mention this.....but what the heck. I have a BLI SW 7 DCC/W sound, since about 96' I believe it was.....It is a great little engine detail perfect.....running....that's another story. It is by far one of the worst engines I have as far as pick-up problem's. It has been apart roughly 8 times, looses pick-up at the side of the trucks which has been addressed all eight times....but don't last. After all the messing around with it that I had did, I came to the conclusion that the primary reason for the poor performance was due to the fact that it is extremely light.....I found that out by running it all over the layout with two bean bags straddling the top of the engine and it didn't hic-up once.......but finding a place to add weight to it, would be another pain. So I gave up.....I run DC anyway so it's no big loss. If I ever get around to it, I more than likely will take out all the DCC stuff and speaker and add weight. It's detailed for the Indiana Harbor Belt.
Frank,
Very nice solution!
Ed
Thanks, Guy, I wasn't aware of that issue. That problem may be traceable to the frog, not because it's not powered, but because the frog on some Atlas #6 turnouts is higher than the rest of the turnout. I first noticed this when a friend's brass steamers (2-8-2, 4-8-2, and 4-8-4) all stalled on the same turnouts. Placing a straightedge across the rails and moving it through the turnout will reveal the problem, as it will catch if the frog is too high. Apparently, the high frogs lifted the first and second driver sets without causing a problem, but when the third driver was lifted, the stiff driver springing wouldn't allow any of the drivers on that side to touch the rail, even though the driver wheelbase was more than long enough to span the frog.A few careful passes with a mill file over the offending area will correct the situation.On a diesel switcher, if the trucks don't have enough "play" to follow slight undulations or bumps in the rail, all wheels on that side of the truck, and possibly also those on the other truck, can be lifted enough to lose electrical contact. I'm not saying that that's necessarily the problem, but it's easy to check for it and easy to correct. If that clears it up, it's up to the OP if he still wants to power the frogs.While I do run DC and it is more forgiving of electrical issues, most of my turnouts are Atlas and, other than the ones mentioned, I've not had a problem. None of them have powered frogs.
Wayne
7j43kStill, it might be better to use my machine screw idea on the metal-but-insulated frogs. "Wrapping a wire around" a screw and expecting it to work for a long time doesn't seem like a good idea.
7j43k Frank, Oh. I guess I've been out-of-the-loop on Atlas track for quite awhile. Back when I used it, the frogs were plastic. And, I confess, I never thought much about what might or might not be "inside". DON'T drill through the plastic frog. Still, it might be better to use my machine screw idea on the metal-but-insulated frogs. "Wrapping a wire around" a screw and expecting it to work for a long time doesn't seem like a good idea. Ed PS: With the machine screw, you'll need an "associate" up to with a screwdriver on the screw head, while you work underneath. Thought I'd warn ya.
Oh. I guess I've been out-of-the-loop on Atlas track for quite awhile. Back when I used it, the frogs were plastic. And, I confess, I never thought much about what might or might not be "inside". DON'T drill through the plastic frog.
Still, it might be better to use my machine screw idea on the metal-but-insulated frogs. "Wrapping a wire around" a screw and expecting it to work for a long time doesn't seem like a good idea.
PS: With the machine screw, you'll need an "associate" up to with a screwdriver on the screw head, while you work underneath. Thought I'd warn ya.
ED,
In the pic' with the turnout next to the fence. That black flat head screw next to the frog is a 1-72 machine screw screwed into the hole next to the metal frog. I drilled a hole into the road bed all the way through the bench work from the top, (My bench work is 1/2 ply and 1/2 Homasote) and inserted a solid 24 gauge wire into it. At the top at the hole I made a 90 degree bend in the wire so it would rest on the lip of the hole and screwed the 1-72 machine screw into the hole with the wire, it threaded itself right in with stripped wire in the hole. The turnouts were already installed and ballasted in an industrial section of the layout, but I needed the frogs powered, cause I like going extremely slow......they all work like a charm and that is since the early 90's. Now....they make pot metal and Aluminum solder.....Solder-iT makes it in a paste form.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Solder-It-ALP-21-Aluminum-Pot-Metal-Solder-Paste-7.1-Gram-Syringe/48356348?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=1235&adid=22222222227035922758&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=57112027418&wl4=pla-89244539858&wl5=9021636&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=112354589&wl11=online&wl12=48356348&wl13=&veh=sem
doctorwayne Unless your switcher is a four-wheeled critter, any standard diesel switcher should have no difficulties with unpowered metal frogs or plastic ones, either.
Unless your switcher is a four-wheeled critter, any standard diesel switcher should have no difficulties with unpowered metal frogs or plastic ones, either.
I whish you were right. But Jim is certainly talking of a BLI DCC switcher. DCC and DC are two different worlds when talking of power pickup. I have those three DCC equipped switchers that have power pickup problem over Atlas #6 turnout: BLI NW2, P2K S-3 and Backmann GE 44 Tonner. All have excellent power pickup on all 8 wheels on straight or curved tracks and on Atlas #4 turnout frogs but they will often stall on Atlas #6 turnout frogs. My Atlas S-2 will perform flawlessly on the same frogs though.
SeeYou190...Have you confirmed it is picking up power from both trucks?...
That'd be the first place I'd look, too. Unless your switcher is a four-wheeled critter, any standard diesel switcher should have no difficulties with unpowered metal frogs or plastic ones, either.Look for improperly-bent wheel wipers or broken wires leading from the wipers or between the trucks and the motor - I'm not familiar with BLI stuff, but I think you'll find the problem there.
I think the problem has to be resident largely in the locomotive. I can't accept that BLI would bring to market a design that is at best iffy going across the typical turnouts available in the hobby. Maybe on a #10+ insulated frog turnout...is that what we have at play here?
I have small switchers, both diesel and steam, in HO, and use both hand-laid #8 turnouts and Peco #6, all with insulated frogs. I have no problems, except that lately, and only lately, my Proto 2000 0-6-0 has begun to stumble and stall on those same turnouts. Why did it work early in its 'career', but not so well now? The turnouts haven't changed; they meter the same way when I test them. It must be something in the engine, or maybe the tender, perhaps both. What would possibly affect both that might change over time? Crud, oxidation, wear 'n'tear, something broken (wire, solder), or displaced.
I think it's a pickup problem. One way to be sure would be to get a known twin of that engine and see if it takes the turnout well. If not, only then would I think about what is wrong in the turnout...even if it meters correctly along its various rail segments.
I believe Dick is talking about powering the pot metal frog on a Atlas custom line turnout that has the small hole tab on the side of the frog once the turnout has already been installed and ballasted.....I did a similar way Myself. If Your going to drill a hole through a Atlas plastic frog You have to remember there are jumpers inbedded in the plastic frog and you are bound to hit one...instant short.... when powered.
I like Dick's idea of powering a plastic frog. IF you don't want to change the switches. Seems kinda weird, but he says it works.
The good news is that you can try it out once and see for yourself. You could even take the screw out and fill the hole with hole-filler. If it didn't work.
'Cause that looks to be about the only way you'll ever power a PLASTIC frog.
I think, however, that I would modify his method a bit. I think I'd try a machine screw, rather than wood. Then I'd run a nut up from below (because I used a long-enough screw) to tighten up the assembly. Then I'd run another screw up to trap my connecting wire. There might be other modifications that come to people's minds.
Oh. And since it's a flat head screw, you'll likely want to countersink the hole JUST THE RIGHT AMOUNT. Too little, it seems like you get a nasty bump. Too much, and the screw head approaches electrical uselessness.
Since Dick's the guy with actual experience, he may wish to comment further.
Jim,
I had a feeling that was what You were going to say......unfortunately no frog juicer in the world will power a plastic frog. The bad part about replacing the ones You have will wind up redoing some of Your trackwork where all the turnouts You want to replace are. They have a completely different footprint than their counterparts and there in lies the problem. Maybe You can just re-do Your most critical area's with turnouts that the frog can be powered and doctor-up the others with a more reliable wiring set-up. I'm going to leave a pic' of one that You can try to do a couple and see if they work better. One of the other ways is too wire/solder jumpers at the hinged point area to the stock rail on both side of the points, instead of relying on the rivets, which loose contact over time. Will be Your call on the above suggestions.......were it Me.......I would change the turnouts and chalk it up to experience. I know that is easier said then done, in some cases.
Good Luck!
Hi Frank,
They are Atlas turnouts and, yes, the frog is plastic. When I began to set my layout a few years ago, I didn't know the difference if frogs, live or insulated. Some of them have ballast finished over them, but I don't mind taking them out and replacing them with a live frog. It's less frustrating than not having the layout work the way I want. I did purchase a Tam Valley Frog Juicer but don't know if that would work with the Atlas insulated frogs or how to set it up if it would work. I power all of my turmnouts with Tortoises.
Jim
It appears that everyone one is telling You to power Your frogs.....which is fine....but they are assuming that Your frogs can be powered.....what if they are plastic? They do exist. Would You kindly say what kind of turnouts You are using please. Also if they are manual or electrically thrown and by what?
Thank You!
gatefiveJust finished two 2x4 modules with twelve Atlas insulated frogs. ... I used a #2 wood screw through the tab on the frog and then solid #24 to the Frog Juicer. Works perfectly and no hesitation at all even at the slowest speed. Only trick is to work slowly on the screw going into the tab on the switch. It self threads itself through the Atlas tab then hits wood and screws down tightly. The #24 wire just wraps around the screw and when painted brown like the ties it almost disappears.
hm. Are you saying the atlas insulated frogs can be powered somehow? share more please!
I used two BLI SW-7 switchers on my last layout.None of my frogs were powered... BUT I had feeders to each POINT. Quite a bit of work, but absolutely 100% worth it.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
"Powering your frogs might seem like a lot of work, but if it will give you reliable operation then it's probably worth it."
That comment is certainly true! Just finished two 2x4 modules with twelve Atlas insulated frogs. Short wheel base locos of any sort would tend to jerk thru, but for low speed switching things always stalled. I used a #2 wood screw through the tab on the frog and then solid #24 to the Frog Juicer. Works perfectly and no hesitation at all even at the slowest speed. Only trick is to work slowly on the screw going into the tab on the switch. It self threads itself through the Atlas tab then hits wood and screws down tightly. The #24 wire just wraps around the screw and when painted brown like the ties it almost disappears.
Dick Foster
Sonoma Short Line
Sonoma CA
Gate 5
For manual switching Caboose Industries 220S ground throws will flip the polarity for you. I had them on my previous layout and they did a great job and weren't that difficult to install.
Personally, I would go with powered frogs on all your turnouts - especially if you have any short-based switchers on your layout.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Hi Jim:
Powering the frogs will definitely help but if the turnouts are already installed and ballasted then doing the wiring could be a challenge, that is unless you are willing to have some visible wires on the turnouts.
There is some excellent information on this website about how to power the frogs on a variety of turnouts:
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm
Keep in mind that you have to have a means of controlling the polarity of the frogs. If you have Tortoises then the contacts are already built in. There are other means for automatically switching the polarity like Tam Valley's Frog Juicers for example:
http://tamvalleydepot.com/products/dccfrogjuicers.html
Powering your frogs might seem like a lot of work, but if it will give you reliable operation then it's probably worth it.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Powering the frogs, or "making them live" could help.
.
Have you confirmed it is picking up power from both trucks? I had a brass locomotive that was giving me similar problems on Kato turnouts (unpowered frogs), and I found it was onlyu picking up power from one tender truck. I cleaned up the connections and the problem was fixed.
You might also want to confirm your point rails are receiving power. They are longer than the frog, and could also be a source of aggravation.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Hey Everyone,
A quick question. I have a BLI switcher with a short distance between trucks and it seems that the wheelbase distance isn't long enough to power through turnouts. Since it's a BLI there isn't much chance of installing a KeepAlive. The frogs are NOT powered. Would it solve the problem if I powered them? Would it create any issues for locos with a longer wheelbase going through the turnouts? I haven't wired any turnouts to make them live, so any photos, etc would be helpful if that is the solution.
Thanks.