What we're dealing with here is the shaft position in the wheel. These vary and if you have two that have too much shaft on the inside, then they will touch when in guage. I would try swapping wheels from another wheel set. I see this all the time, to the point that I check to be sure there is no continuity as part of the guage setting process.
As an aside, when Athearn went from outside frame to inside frame, all they did was change the shaft to wheel position. The shaft length remained the nominally the same.
As for the gear cracking issue, it is a fundamental design problem for ALL interference fit plastic gears on metal shafts, think of Bachmann ideler gears compared to similar Life Like. They all crack over time. Life Likes problem with these was they increased the interference amount. This led to faster failure times. Dealing with Athearn BB inside frame units, 80% have cracked gears. Thus I replace all gears when rehabbing a unit. A big factor this cyclic stress due to temperature change. If your area is held at a constant temp, then the gears will last longer. In thus case 10 degrees matters.
So many trains, so little time,
Larry
www.llxlocomotives.com
ATSFGuy Oh right sorry, forgot to make a side note. Sidenote: What if cars did have railroad trucks?
Oh right sorry, forgot to make a side note.
Sidenote: What if cars did have railroad trucks?
Alton Junction
Hey, this is a thread about wheels on model railroad locomotives, not on automobiles.
Regarding the Chrysler/Rambler, I have neither, I have a 2014 Toyota Corolla for safety and comfort.
richhotrainUnless you have some special tools, you are relying on your thumbs and index fingers twisting, pushing, and pulling on two little round wheels. Not always an easy task. It is not that difficult to get the wheelset in gauge, but it can be difficult to center the wheeset assembly on the opposing gear. Rich
My "special tools" has always been a small flat tip screwdriver and NMRA Gauge.
As far as the gears,they need not to be perfectly align. In fact maybe that's why I don't have problems.. If it ain't broke I don't fix it-that means as long as the engine is running smooth then its good to go.
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I had a similar problem long ago with a Life-Like / Proto E-unit; ran great, but stalled on a particular turnout. At the time, someone told me (I think at the LHS) how to fix it, and that Life-Like and some other manufacturers often made their wheelsets a little narrow, because it was thought that doing that would help the engines more easily go around tight 18" radius curves.
Frank, good idea. We do have a box of medical gloves around the house. I will give that a try.
Rich
richhotrainUnless you have some special tools, you are relying on your thumbs and index fingers twisting, pushing, and pulling on two little round wheels. Not always an easy task.
Rich,
Next time try the Blue throw away surgical gloves, that You can get at any Walgreens for pennies for 50 in a box. They will hold the parts better and are easier on the fingers. I do it all the time with the truck models to put the plastic wheel/rim on the 1/16'' brass rod that I use so they roll. Two to three twists in a clockwise motion and they are on. Twist oposite way, to take them off. Been doing it that way for yrs.. I also have a small pair of needle nose pliers with plain jaws bent in a 90 degree angle to hold the axle firm. I also made a jig. A round piece of brass bar stock that the gear flange fits into, hold the half axle with wheel on with the 90 degree pliers and lightly tap the axle end into the other end of the gear flange with a Jewelers brass whammer. They do make a tool for that...but I'm used to doing it My way. The tool is called an Arbor press. I would probably have gotten one a long time ago, but as often as I would use it, didn't find the need to warrant the cost.
Take the Plane, it's faster....
Frank
BTW: The wheels in the pic' are a lot smaller than axle gears and just as hard to get on without damaging them, unlike the gears which are Delrin.
While centered to the .00001 of an inch might be a nice goal, in practice as long as it's visually close it should be fine. That can be achieved by putting one wheelset in half way, then using the NMRA gauge to set the the other one in place, which should be as close to half as to make the gear centered.
Don;t just push and pull, twist at the same time and the stud axles should slide right in to the gear. Most of the gears have a small ridge in the center - it's pretty hard to get the stud ends to actually touch and cause a short, and if they ARE pushed in that far, the loco may not even sit on the rails, the wheels will be WAY narrow and probably fall between the rails. Any stub arrangement like this needs an NMRA gauge, you can't set them by eye and actually have it right all the time (you can get lucky once in a while).
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
zstripe One of the half axles can be in the gear further than it's mate....getting it in gauge would mean You would have to put the mating axle in the gear further for it to be in gauge. That would mean when You remove the bottom truck cover, one gear would be left/right of center, but will still mate with the drive gear and that is how mine were. When You replace the axle gears, You have to put the square bronze bushing on the axle first then put into gear...both spaces between the bushing and the gear should be the same on both sides of the gear for the gear to be in gauge and be centered on the drive gear when in gauge.
One of the half axles can be in the gear further than it's mate....getting it in gauge would mean You would have to put the mating axle in the gear further for it to be in gauge. That would mean when You remove the bottom truck cover, one gear would be left/right of center, but will still mate with the drive gear and that is how mine were. When You replace the axle gears, You have to put the square bronze bushing on the axle first then put into gear...both spaces between the bushing and the gear should be the same on both sides of the gear for the gear to be in gauge and be centered on the drive gear when in gauge.
There is some difficulty in accomplishing that objective though. It is not always easy to twist, push, pull those two axles into the ideal position. The gear openings can be tight. The entire assembly may be tight.
Unless you have some special tools, you are relying on your thumbs and index fingers twisting, pushing, and pulling on two little round wheels. Not always an easy task. It is not that difficult to get the wheelset in gauge, but it can be difficult to center the wheeset assembly on the opposing gear.
slamminAt the risk of picking nits, Fiat owns Chrysler.
If you really want to pick further, Fiat is owned by Exor of Amsterdam (the Agnelli Family).
But I think you have made your point.
Regards, Ed
"Do you think Chrysler will still repair your DeSoto or Rambler? After all, they are now owned by Chrysler."
At the risk of picking nits, Fiat owns Chrysler. Fix It Again Tony
ATSFGuy WAlthers should know better, This is an issue that should not be an issue. Do Athearn, Atlas, Broadway Limited Imports, or Intermountain have these issues?
WAlthers should know better, This is an issue that should not be an issue.
Do Athearn, Atlas, Broadway Limited Imports, or Intermountain have these issues?
To my knowledge, the WalthersProto releases do not have the problem.
ATSFGuyWAlthers should know better,
This has been hashed over dozens of times here.
Life-Like is long out of business. Walthers bought the remaining assets of Life-Like and DID offer free axle replacements for several years. **
Do you think Chrysler will still repair your DeSoto or Rambler? After all, they are now owned by Chrysler.
The gears are an easy fix, the locomotives involved are fifteen to twenty years old.
ATSFGuyDo Athearn, Atlas, Broadway Limited Imports, or Intermountain have these issues?
Not so much the cracked gears but they ALL had their share of quality issues.
** [edit] Shortly after Walthers acquired Life-Like, they would send complete axle/bearing/wheelset/gear assemblies on request. From what I've heard some people were requesting rather LARGE numbers of these free replacements.
Walthers had to later restrict the policy and required the submission of a receipt or proof-of-purchase to weed out the "hoarders".
Happy Modeling,
Ed
Walthers should know better, This is an issue that should not be an issue.
Peahrens,
One of the half axles can be in the gear further than it's mate....getting it in gauge would mean You would have to put the mating axle in the gear further for it to be in gauge. That would mean when You remove the bottom truck cover, one gear would be left/right of center, but will still mate with the drive gear and that is how mine were. When You replace the axle gears, You have to put the square bronze bushing on the axle first then put into gear...both spaces between the bushing and the gear should be the same on both sides of the gear for the gear to be in gauge and be centered on the drive gear when in gauge. The place that I bought mine from was a LHS dealer that I knew for yrs. and He was going to send it back and I explained what I found so He decided to check some others He had and found the same thing wrong. He just replaced them with new axles, gears, bushings already on, they came that way from MFG, for 4.10 a pair. The ones We fixed, I also bought from Him. I did know what the space was at one time, but forgot, since the 90's. Like I tried to explain in My other post...there is really not a lot of space in the gear separating the two half axle's. When the gear is cracked,people have also had them short fast, along with the thumping noise.
It also puzzled Me at first and Him.
Take Care!
zstripeRich, I hope You realize that You can have one half axle in the gear further than the other axle and getting it in gauge means the one axle won't be in as far and in some cases touching....which will cause an instant short. If it was shorting, that may have been exactly what was happening. I had bought two brand new P2K's with the different numbers back in the 90's...one ran great out of the box. The other run about 3 inches and short out...then would short going around any curve. The wheels were in gauge...but looking at the gears in the truck with bottom cover removed, they were not all centered......one was to the left a bit...doing a continuity test revealed that the slightest pressure on the wheels would cause the axles to touch in the gear creating a dead short. There really is not that much room in the gear when the axle's are in gauge so they don't touch....around 1/16 inch or smaller. Take Care! Frank
Frank, I want to be sure I understand precisely as I have a number of these. It never occurred to me that the two half axles might meet within the gear and cause a short. I get that part.
But if they are in gauge i would think that the only way the axles would touch would be that one or both of the 1/2 axles were simply too long. If they were of proper length and one axle were inserted more than usual amount, then if the other axle were inserted (a lesser amount) to put the wheels in gauge the gear would be off center slightly, but the axles would not touch together unless they are too long.
If I've got that right, there would be cases where too long axles would require slight grinding to shorten them so they would not touch when the wheels were set to proper gauge. Of course, one would prefer equivalent insertion so the gear was nicely centering on the mating gear.
Please clarify if I'm misinterpreting the point. Thanks.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
Frank, that is an excellent point.
For now, I have the wheelsets in gauge and they are not shorting out.
But I have observed that the axles are not evenly spaces as to the gear.
So, that could spell trouble in the future.
I will watch for it.
The two spots where the loco was shorting were at two of my Peco crossings, notorious for their closely converging rails of opposite polarity.
I hope You realize that You can have one half axle in the gear further than the other axle and getting it in gauge means the one axle won't be in as far and in some cases touching....which will cause an instant short. If it was shorting, that may have been exactly what was happening. I had bought two brand new P2K's with the different numbers back in the 90's...one ran great out of the box. The other run about 3 inches and short out...then would short going around any curve. The wheels were in gauge...but looking at the gears in the truck with bottom cover removed, they were not all centered......one was to the left a bit...doing a continuity test revealed that the slightest pressure on the wheels would cause the axles to touch in the gear creating a dead short. There really is not that much room in the gear when the axle's are in gauge so they don't touch....around 1/16 inch or smaller.
slammin Rich, As long as you've been around, I thought that you had probably address the P2K cracked gear problems already. Maybe this axle was always out just a little but performed well on more forgiving trackwork. The recent Peco turnouts apparently magnified the problem. Glad your back on track!
As long as you've been around, I thought that you had probably address the P2K cracked gear problems already. Maybe this axle was always out just a little but performed well on more forgiving trackwork. The recent Peco turnouts apparently magnified the problem. Glad your back on track!
I have 14 Proto diesels, making up 7 consists. I have replaced cracked gears on 8 of those diesels and now another one has raised its ugly head.
I still have on hand another 12 spare gears from Athearn waiting their turn to be installed.
Thank you, one and all. The problem is fixed. The only thing better than the forum is its members.
What I had forgotten about in asking my question is that the wheelset is not a single axle but, rather, a pair of axles fitted into a gear. Duh. I was able to pop the cover plate off the truck and pull the wheeset. The gear was not cracked as I had replaced it years ago. So I twisted the wheelset into gauge and all is now well.
Why if I replaced the gear years ago is the wheelset now failing? Good question, simple answer. I have since added two Peco crossings, and those became the trouble spots for this particular loco which I haven't run in awhile.
Thanks again, guys.
Rich, I've acquired a number of P1K & P2K locos to DCC/sound and always get into the wheelsets to check the gauge and tightness and replace gears as needed. I always keep some of the Atheran gears on hand.
On setting the gauge, I had one loco that derailed at turnouts by picking the frog. While I had checked or adjusted the gauge, I found that I had not done it precisely enough. Don't just get the wheels within the NMRA gauge slots but check that you are getting the flange centers centered in the slot by looking critically at that. It did the trick for me.
Probably not an issue for your Geep but I do suggest to always count the gear teeth. I had an E unit that had a different number from the Athearn gears and when substituted the Athearns did not work quietly, though I would have expected that not to be a problem. Maybe a unique issue with my loco. I've always had a good outcome when substituting the Athearn gears for the same teeth number LL gears. I thnk I've seen 2 or 3 different teeth number gears in the LL diesels. On one not of the Athearn type nor my E6 type (where I got some spares via replacment trucks available) I successfully epoxied the wheels into the slightly cracked gears. A temporary fix intended, so far it has worked but I'd say it's a next to last resort (e.g, to more expensive NWSL fixes that are probably available).
One of my weaknesses is I have not consistently documented the status of what I've done for the gears in a given loco. I have a file for each but am sure I have not always stopped to record what I've done. Of course, I have a perfect memory. (What were we talking about?).
Bearman,
Adjusting the gauge on the wheel sets is a piece of cake. New complete wheelsets are a lot more expensive, usually 15 to 18 dollars for 4, vs about $6 for 6 gears. The gauge should be checked before installing the new wheelsets. This job is almost as simple as changing couplers. Rich there are lots of threads discussing this repair and plenty of you-tube videos. GO FOR IT!
If the gear is cracked, Athearn Part #60024 replaces it. Nevermind that this part is listed as fitting the SD 40-2, AFAIK it works as a replacement for all the P2K GP cracked gears.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I dont know what it costs to replace the wheelsets, but replacing them seems to be the easiest way to go.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
This is an easy fix. Carefully pop the cover off the botton of the truck. Lift the axle assembly out and twist the wheels pulling on them until they fit the gauge. You may want to clean out any old grease and re-lube while you have the cover off. If this is an older P2K you should check for cracked axle gears. If the wheels are easy to twist, you need new gears.
I noticed that at slow speeds my Proto 2000 GP9 is stalling and sometimes shorting on two spots on my layout.
i checked the four wheelsets on the loco, and two of the wheelsets are out of gauge, too tight.
Do these wheelsets need to be replaced or can they be widened into gauge?