Is MTH Getting Into HO?

[Anonymous]

I read this on another forum. Is this true?

Ben

[AggroJones]

Yeah. There were lots of threads about it here already. Everyone seems to be very mad [editied swear word] about it. Someone else will probably post links to them.

[AntonioFP45]

Yes, Ben

There are two threads with many posts. One of the guys on here may fish for one of them and post it on the front page for you or give you the link. I made responses on both both threads as well.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 10ben10

I read this on another forum. Is this true?

Ben

MTH has advertised their HO PRR K4 in Model Railroader and showed pictures of the engine. BLI also announced a K4 at about the same time as MTH and it is now in the stores. I can't believe the MTH K4 will sell well since the BLI K4 is already out. I have one of the BLI K4's and it is a nice model.

[ndbprr]

Well if past history is any indications MTH will claim they invented the K4 and sue everybody including the PRR and it successors claiming they have sole rights to anything to do with it. Then they will ask the courts to have anyone who ever made one fork over every cent to MTH since the competitors participate in unfair trade practices. Then us PRR modelers will be told we have to deal with MTH exclusively and prices will double. While I am being sarcastic I hope nobody buys anything they make in HO and they retreat out of the market quickly. MTH is not wanted or needed in my opinion.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ndbprr

Well if past history is any indications MTH will claim they invented the K4 and sue everybody including the PRR and it successors claiming they have sole rights to anything to do with it. Then they will ask the courts to have anyone who ever made one fork over every cent to MTH since the competitors participate in unfair trade practices. Then us PRR modelers will be told we have to deal with MTH exclusively and prices will double. While I am being sarcastic I hope nobody buys anything they make in HO and they retreat out of the market quickly. MTH is not wanted or needed in my opinion.

NDBPRR,

Relax, no need to worry. Remember the two MTH related threads? Many of us made "the statement" that basically we would not support MTH's HO venture due to its refusal to

(1) Cooperate with the NMRA and its standards.
(2) Of course, the MTH vs. QSI lawsuit which through a boulder in front of the "DCC Train".

The amount of responses to both threads were incredible! Even the MTH rep became involved.

If I may kindly suggest though we should avoid flaming MTH on here though if we're to be taken seriously. As stated before, these threads are read around the world! So realistically MTH is already taking a financial hit before their HO units even hit the market. $$$$$

MTH owner, Mike Wolf, has seen the threads and he's very likely "Gotten The Message" that an overwhelming number of HO (and N ) modelers have no intention of purchasing MTH's products. As for those modelers that choose to, more power to them as this is a free market.

Also don't forget that as stated by other modelers, MTH's K4 is already at a disadvantage as it is not as well detailed as BLI's K4. HO & N modelers tend to be more discriminating when it comes to realistic body detailing. This is thanks to companies like Intermountain, Stewart, and Lifelike that "Raised the model detailing bar a lot higher" in the past few years.

Peace and stay cool guys!

[willy6]

MTH..........................Money Through Harassment![tdn][:(!]

[PennsyHoosier]

Recent Model Railroaders have featured pics of the MTH K4s. How well they will sell remains to be seen, due in part to some real antagonism to certain of MTH's stances. Note the virulent response of some on this thread.

Antonio's point is well made. All are welcome and encouraged to express their opinions--but I don't think we need to flame.

And, in the end, I just bought a BLI K4s. I LOVE IT!!!!! I think I'll buy several more. I don't have any plans to purchase the MTH offerings.

[boomer5344]

A few comments....
This N scale modeler would LOVE to see MTH get into N scale ! The production model
MTH K4 will be much more detailed than the BLI model.
Lastly, The MTH K4 is already 100% NMRA DCC compatable.
This whole "MTH is not wanted in HO" is so childish and ridiculous. Just wait till the
actual model comes out, then decide.

Lets get back to the trains!!!

[rrinker]

QUOTE: Originally posted by boomer5344

A few comments....
This N scale modeler would LOVE to see MTH get into N scale ! The production model
MTH K4 will be much more detailed than the BLI model.
Lastly, The MTH K4 is already 100% NMRA DCC compatable.
This whole "MTH is not wanted in HO" is so childish and ridiculous. Just wait till the
actual model comes out, then decide.

Lets get back to the trains!!!

Are you looking at the same issues of Model Railroader that the rest of us are? The MTH K4 has a huge non-prototypical smokebox hinge, just like their O scale models. The firebox looks like it's jacked up off the trailing truck. This you say is better detailed than the BLI K4? Please. A Bachmann Spectrum K4 is more nicely proportioned than that abomination. If MTH freely turned over every patent they claim to the NMRA I STILL wouldn't buy the HO K4 simply because it is a horrible model, far too toylike. And I don't think I'm alone here in feeling this way. It has nothing to do with any litigation or whatnot and everything to do with the actual quality of the model in question.

--Randy

[willy6]

[#ditto]

[boomer5344]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker

QUOTE: Originally posted by boomer5344

A few comments....
This N scale modeler would LOVE to see MTH get into N scale ! The production model
MTH K4 will be much more detailed than the BLI model.
Lastly, The MTH K4 is already 100% NMRA DCC compatable.
This whole "MTH is not wanted in HO" is so childish and ridiculous. Just wait till the
actual model comes out, then decide.

Lets get back to the trains!!!

Are you looking at the same issues of Model Railroader that the rest of us are? The MTH K4 has a huge non-prototypical smokebox hinge, just like their O scale models. The firebox looks like it's jacked up off the trailing truck. This you say is better detailed than the BLI K4? Please. A Bachmann Spectrum K4 is more nicely proportioned than that abomination. If MTH freely turned over every patent they claim to the NMRA I STILL wouldn't buy the HO K4 simply because it is a horrible model, far too toylike. And I don't think I'm alone here in feeling this way. It has nothing to do with any litigation or whatnot and everything to do with the actual quality of the model in question.

--Randy

Randy,

The MTH photo is only a pre-production model. MTH is notorious for having terrible pre-production touched up models in the catalogs. The model in the photo looks like a dressed-up bowser model to us. They do this all the time to us in O gauge. Most of the MTH Premier locomotive catalog photos are HO brass models. The actual model will be beetr,MUCH better. I have lots of the proof looking at me right now in my train room.
Also, the thing isn't going to be out for another several months so lets all just calm down,enjoy our trains and save the criticism for the actual production model.

BTW , I love what BLI does in HO, wi***hey'd do yhe same in N too.

Boomer[:)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by boomer5344

Lastly, The MTH K4 is already 100% NMRA DCC compatable.
This whole "MTH is not wanted in HO" is so childish and ridiculous. Just wait till the
actual model comes out, then decide.

I'm a relative newbie to the current HO scene, but I'm pretty sure this is incorrect. Sure it won't self destruct if you try to run the MTH K4 w/ DCC. It will run just fine. But 100% compatible? Not even close as far as I can tell. MTH's K4 has many features restricted only to DCS, and not just the features that couldn't be done with DCC that would HAVE to be DCS. They purposefully chose to offer reduced functionality by "open source" DCC to promote their proprietary DCS system.

That's perfectly within their right as a business to do, of course, but IMO it's a big reason to stay away from their product(s), and it's certainly not full compatibility. Upon deciding to re-enter this hobby one of my biggest frustrations was the DCS vs. TMCC war in O gauge. In fact, it's probably the major turn-off of that scale for me. Learning that HO had a standardized, open-source control system was a breath of freesh air to me. Now I learn it's being threatened by none other than MTH.

Under those circumstances, I don't blame some modelers for thinking HO scale would be better off without MTH's entry at all.

[twhite]

I just saw a model of BLI's K4 in my LHS, and though I don't plan on buying one, i've got to admit that it's one HELLUVA beautiful model! I think by the time MTH has theirs out, BLI will have stolen all the thunder, anyway. Perhaps they should have jumped on the HO bandwagon with a USRA 4-6-2, instead of a Pennsy. And much as I like Pennsy steam, there are a lot more of us that could use a USRA Light or Heavy 4-6-2 as a base loco for our own conversions. I think that MTH may have missed the boat completely on this one. It'll be interesting to see how their K-4 fares and if they'll decide to further invest in the HO market.
Tom

[KemacPrr]

Guys the K-4 that MTH has in their adds for the new HO scale version is one of their O scale models !!!!! The BLI K-4 would have been Lionels next HO loco thats why it hit the street so fast. What does interest me about MTH is their willingness to do oddball units, Centipedes, Lima Tranfers etc. This might open up the opportunity for these in HO. Only time will tell but it might be an interesting 2005 in the HO scale loco market.
----------------------- Ken McCorry

[Anonymous]

When I made one of my original replies on this forum it was concerning MTH and the k4 and its sync.smoking feature.I must confess I was not very current on major issues within the model train world.With the price of non brass engines heading towards the 500.00 a pop mark I was and still look for the absolute most I can get from my dollar.But as i began to read more and more posts that was about the time as the two before mentioned threads,I was kinda shocked at what i read about MTH and their buisness practice.How much futher would DCC be behind its current level if the Lenz corporation would of taken a simaliar stance.The fact that they handed it over to the train community through the nmra on a silver platter,has no dought influenced their success.Does anyone remember the old Cracker Jacks commercial about the joy of sharring.This hobby is about sharring as it is anything else.We share are advise comments and opinions everyday here in this and many other forums.I have yet to meet a model railroader who would not take a little time to share his hobby.Mth has with out a dought heard the collective roar,and i think their sales will reflect this.I personely will spend my money on products that are manf. by companies that are not just about greed,but improving the hobby for all to enjoy.Even if MTH offered the k4 or any other model in brass with all the features that one could want,at a price to good to pass up I would do just that.Pass it up.Will MTH survive in the ho market place,time will tell,to the people who buy their products like it was said earlier more power to you.To me they will be just one more product to pass over while I scan the shelves at the LHS looking for my next BLI.

[AntonioFP45]

Railguy,

You stated your points exceptionally well!

So often I think that if MTH would have taken "Lenz's approach", they might have been close to the top of the command control food chain by now. Even with the interference from the MTH vs. QSI lawsuit, DCC seems to be "exploding" in popularity. It's hard to pick up any HO or N scale related publication and not find a DCC related topic in it. What's surprising is that , from what I've been reading, a significant number of modelers in the "Over 50" age category are going DCC! Initially, some of these gentlemen were among the most skeptical, based on negative experiences with some of the past command control systems.

The interesting twist to this is that many of MTH's customers are also in this age category, so again, had MTH "done it right" even more of these modelers might have potentially jumped on board the DCC train!

[Phil1361]

QUOTE: That's perfectly within their right as a business to do, of course, but IMO it's a big reason to stay away from their product(s), and it's certainly not full compatibility. Upon deciding to re-enter this hobby one of my biggest frustrations was the DCS vs. TMCC war in O gauge. In fact, it's probably the major turn-off of that scale for me. Learning that HO had a standardized, open-source control system was a breath of freesh air to me. Now I learn it's being threatened by none other than MTH.

Under those circumstances, I don't blame some modelers for thinking HO scale would be better off without MTH's entry at all.

Senna1, that's exactly how I feel. But I blame both Lionel and MTH. They both seem to feel that by keeping their stuff proprietary they will make more sales. (Lionel does license TMCC but not all of their sounds just the generic sounds). First way back Lionel came out with TMCC and said DCC couldn't handle the amps of O Scale. Then a comapny (I always forget the name) figured out a way to do it (it was called 3RDCC) and it was offered to Mike Wolf but he turned it down saying he wanted his own system.

I have NEVER EVER bought a locomotive because I liked the control system. I buy a model because I like it-period.

I have a few converted locomotives (I'm a 2-Railer) which have TMCC and DCS but I also have 5 locomotives with no system installed.I'm kind of getting sick of all of this. I am going to a O Scale club tonight and I will get a first hand demonstration of DCC. If I like it I may start adding DCC to my locomotives that do not have a command control system.

I don't blame the HO guys for not supporting MTH. If I was in HO I wouldn't support them either unless they came out wih something I couldn't live without. Even then, not out of hatred for MTH but in support of compatibility I probably wouldn't buy their models.

You just can't put a price on compatibility!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Railguy,

You stated your points exceptionally well!

So often I think that if MTH would have taken "Lenz's approach", they might have been close to the top of the command control food chain by now. Even with the interference from the MTH vs. QSI lawsuit, DCC seems to be "exploding" in popularity. It's hard to pick up any HO or N scale related publication and not find a DCC related topic in it. What's surprising is that , from what I've been reading, a significant number of modelers in the "Over 50" age category are going DCC! Initially, some of these gentlemen were among the most skeptical, based on negative experiences with some of the past command control systems.

The interesting twist to this is that many of MTH's customers are also in this age category, so again, had MTH "done it right" even more of these modelers might have potentially jumped on board the DCC train!

You are 100% right ,it is amazing to me that they whole heartedly took the path they are on.

[Anonymous]

Please forgive me if I am way out of touch with the Problems with MTH and the HO Scale Modellers.

As someone in their Late 40's and not having an official training in Railroad Modeling, Why should I NOT buy a MTH locomotive? I really feel that it is up to the modeler to support who they want to and isn't it Service, Price, and what YOU want to buy and model more important?

Tell me where I'm wrong here! I'm into this now as a hobby and want to get the most enjoyment for my Grand Son and myself.

Chris

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by NYC56

Please forgive me if I am way out of touch with the Problems with MTH and the HO Scale Modellers.

As someone in their Late 40's and not having an official training in Railroad Modeling, Why should I NOT buy a MTH locomotive? I really feel that it is up to the modeler to support who they want to and isn't it Service, Price, and what YOU want to buy and model more important?

Tell me where I'm wrong here! I'm into this now as a hobby and want to get the most enjoyment for my Grand Son and myself.

Chris

Chris

You should purchase whatever you want from anyone that you choose. This hobby is a fun way of spending time, and if the product is good, you should enjoy it. I have a BLI K4, a Spectrum K4 and a PFM K4, so I probably will not be getting one of the MTH models.

I would seem logical to me if MTH wanted to make a hit with the HO market, they would have imported one of the models we have been asking for in this forum and some ot the others out there. They have ignored our requests for certain engines that have only been available in brass for many years and came out with one that has been available many times over in brass and now plastic and cast metal. The same goes for BLI and most of the other importers ignoring the Northern Pacific and DM&IR, Illinois Central and many other railroads. If you count USRA models, a few have been imported, but they represent the USRA version and are not modified as specific railroads changed them.

I don't believe any of us really knows how the MTH will work with HO DCC until they are out on the market. I do know about the #1 Scale MTH DCC system since I do have one and it is not compatible with other DCC. In my opion, the MTH does have the best sound that is available today for steam, including my PFM sound unit.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker

QUOTE: Originally posted by boomer5344

A few comments....
This N scale modeler would LOVE to see MTH get into N scale ! The production model
MTH K4 will be much more detailed than the BLI model.
Lastly, The MTH K4 is already 100% NMRA DCC compatable.
This whole "MTH is not wanted in HO" is so childish and ridiculous. Just wait till the
actual model comes out, then decide.

Lets get back to the trains!!!

Are you looking at the same issues of Model Railroader that the rest of us are? The MTH K4 has a huge non-prototypical smokebox hinge, just like their O scale models. The firebox looks like it's jacked up off the trailing truck. This you say is better detailed than the BLI K4? Please. A Bachmann Spectrum K4 is more nicely proportioned than that abomination. If MTH freely turned over every patent they claim to the NMRA I STILL wouldn't buy the HO K4 simply because it is a horrible model, far too toylike. And I don't think I'm alone here in feeling this way. It has nothing to do with any litigation or whatnot and everything to do with the actual quality of the model in question.

--Randy

Well said Randy! I agree, the MTH K4 looks very toyish. The BLI K4 and the Spectrum K4 look far better by comparison. Atleast when Lionel (who makes 3 rail O as well) entered HO, they made exceptionaly good looking models.
Also, BLI released their K4 a few weeks after they announced it, now there's a first! I wi***hey did that with all of their models!

Happy Railroading,

Jonathon