I have a large layout where I'm running both unit, freight and passenger trains. Most of my freight trains are going to come from staging and end up in staging making 3 or 4 stops along the way to pickup and drop off cars in a "local" yard. At these local yards, a local switcher will spot cars at the local industries and move other cars to the local yard to a departure track. What should I use for the through freight trains and local switchers -- Waybills, Switch Lists, a combination or something else. If possible I'd like to use just switch lists, but not sure how you use for both the through freight and local switcher. For example, would the local switch list show which cars would be dropped off by the various through freight trains, which are to be picked up and at what time the through freight would be arriving.
Your replies will be greatly appreciated.
KudlorMost of my freight trains are going to come from staging and end up in staging making 3 or 4 stops along the way to pickup and drop off cars in a "local" yard. At these local yards, a local switcher will spot cars at the local industries and move other cars to the local yard to a departure track.
In that operating scenario, I think that car-cards-and-waybills (CC&WB) will be much easier to manage than switchlists, which it seems would need to be re-written quite often.
What I like best about CC&WB is that they can easily be re-organized to match the changes as you switch. And they're self-correcting.
Byron
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
I've been back and forth on this, but can say this. CC&WB works great if your operators pay attention and check the card boxes at each station/industry. In fact, I would prefer that over switchlists as it's less work to keep current as Byron noted.
On the other hand, human nature and my operators being human mean that switchlists actually get more attention, given they're developed based on calling out the specific car cards that need dealt with.
For trains that go from staging to staging and which stop only at certain stations to switch, a switchlist may be the better option, despite the extra labor involved.
For locals, you could still rely solely on the CC&WB to gather the cars for trains and spot cars to industry and vice versa, then make switchlists only for the through trains that do work on the way to their destination. This is a scheme I'm still working on, but has cut my paperwork consierably, while still giving some guidance to the crews.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
By the way, responding to your thread title, "train orders" and CC&WB/switchlists are two completely unrelated things (on the model and the prototype). One refers to train movement and the other to individual car routing. Neither switchlists nor CC&WB tell operators what to do with their train.
To tell operators where to take their trains and what to do along the way, you need some sort of train instructions. Here’s one example:
[The above incoporates a bit of the prototype's employee timetable and some model-specific stuff. This was used with manual switchlists for car routing and a sequence timetable for dispatching on this particular layout.]
And here's part of that sequence timetable:
(The notes on the above are for the layout owner to guide the session. These were done for Jim Dias' fine Western Pacific layout some years ago. [September 2001 Model Railroader, May 2000 Railmodel Journal, and July 2000 Railroad Model Craftsman])
The term “Train Orders” usually refers to a specific element of Timetable and Train Order dispatching and is yet a different thing.
Edit: Here's another example of train instructions. These instructions tell the operators on the Kingsley Turn where to take their train and what to do along the way. This is from Rick Fortin's amazing 4th District ATSF layout. Car routing on the layout is via car cards & waybills, dispatching is Track Warrant Control. The instructions are on a small clipboard that also has a plastic pocket to hold CC&WB, and the clip holds track warrants and other forms.
I quit using CC&WB around a year ago because I didn't use them in my 9 1/2 years experience as a brakeman instead I turn to a simple switch list very similar to what I used.
Examples:
Mid States Grocery
S/O 1981,25150,7182-off spot 7182.
P/U 45911,60056.
American Plastics:
S/O 76990
P/U NA.
National Rubber Products.
S/O 32133,32280
P/U 34900 respot 34488.
Transload Spot 5.
S/O NA
P/U 12651.
All I really needed to know was the car number and where it went..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
KudlorTo clarify, when my through freight leaves staging, the Waybills for all the cars will accompany the train operator, then the Waybills for the cars dropped off in a yard are turned and handed to the local switching loco operator -- maybe put in the local Waybill boxes at the local yard.
On most layouts, there are car card boxes for each track. The through freight operator would place the waybills for the cards being set out in the appropriate box. Then the local operator can easily find them when they are ready to move the cars, associated with track where the cars themselves are sitting.
KudlorA freight cars Waybill will show going from staging to a particular yard and then, when turned, will show the car going from the local yard to the destination industry. Correct?
Not usually, given the scenario you have described. In most cases, layout owners don't want the operators to turn waybills themselves, as this leads to confusion. Instead, the waybill would show the destination town and industry. For example To: Acme Milling Station: Springfield (your local town/yard)
The through train’s instructions would tell them to set out all Springfield cars together in Springfield and on which track (the through train crew doesn't care about the industries in your scenario). Then the local can do the final delivery based on the waybill information.
KudlorAt the beginning of a session, there may be Waybills in the boxes at the local yard for the local switching operator to move cars from industry to the departure track and possibly cars in the yard to be moved to industries. Correct?
Yes.
KudlorAm I correct that the local switching loco operator is responsible for setting out cars on the departure track in the proper order for the through trains to pick up?
Varies. In many cases, no, the local train just puts the cars out there in any order and they are classified at the next major classification yard (which might be represented by staging). But if their train instructions tell them to block the cars in a particular order, then they do so.
KudlorThe through freight operator is responsible for cutting out cars to be dropped off in the local yard and for properly placing the appropriate cars from the departure track in their train.
Yes, that is generally true. Again, their train instructions should tell them what to do with pick ups based on your operating scenario.
I’ve emphasized instructions in the text above to make the point that the crew needs something beyond what would typically be on the waybills or switchlists. In real life, the same crews worked the same jobs week after week, year after year. So the knowledge of what to do along the way was institutional knowledge (backed up by employee timetables and many other documents). Our operators need to have information delivered just where they need it and when they need it – and the individual train’s instructions do that.
BRAKIEI quit using CC&WB around a year ago because I didn't use them in my 9 1/2 years experience as a brakeman instead I turn to a simple switch list very similar to what I used
Conductors used waybills -- that's who probably wrote your switchlists. The Original Poster's layout is more complicated than a single-station small switching layout.
This thread reads like Greek to me.
Lonnie Utah This thread reads like Greek to me.
cuyamaThe Original Poster's layout is more complicated than a single-station small switching layout.
Not station..Industrial Park very similar to Progressive Rail's Airlake operation.
Still all I needed was the car number and where it went and that can be dupicated on any size layout. IMHO its less messy and far less work.
BRAKIENot station..Industrial Park very similar to Progressive Rail's Airlake operation.
Not really a distinction for the model.
BRAKIEStill all I needed was the car number and where it went and that can be dupicated on any size layout. IMHO its less messy and far less work.
Messy?
The car number and destination alone doesn't suffice for multiple operators interacting in a larger layout as the Original Poster describes. Why would you argue otherwise?
Better yet, cite some examples of multi-operator sessions that you have developed and managed on actual layouts using only car number and destination as the only paperwork. Perhaps we can all learn from your techniques.
cuyamaNot usually, given the scenario you have described. In most cases, layout owners don't want the operators to turn waybills themselves, as this leads to confusion. Instead, the waybill would show the destination town and industry. For example To: Acme Milling Station: Springfield (your local town/yard) The through train’s instructions would tell them to set out all Springfield cars together in Springfield and on which track (the through train crew doesn't care about the industries in your scenario). Then the local can do the final delivery based on the waybill information.
To: Acme Milling Station: Springfield (your local town/yard)
Depending on the size/complexity of your yard, a yardmaster could/should be a separate job from the local crew too. It's his job to interpret the waybills to determine what trains different cars should be sorted to, and see that the yard switcher gets it done. The local crew would pick up their stack of waybills from the yardmaster along with any train orders, and likely create a switchlist at that point for their own use, while waiting for clearance/brake tests/car inspection/etc.
After reading quite extensively on TT&TO operation, it's something I'd really like to experience on a large point-to-point model RR. I hear it can be quite taxing on novice operators though...
cuyama BRAKIE Not station..Industrial Park very similar to Progressive Rail's Airlake operation. Not really a distinction for the model. BRAKIE Still all I needed was the car number and where it went and that can be dupicated on any size layout. IMHO its less messy and far less work. Messy? The car number and destination alone doesn't suffice for multiple operators interacting in a larger layout as the Original Poster describes. Why would you argue otherwise? Better yet, cite some examples of multi-operator sessions that you have developed and managed on actual layouts using only car number and destination as the only paperwork. Perhaps we can all learn from your techniques.
BRAKIE Not station..Industrial Park very similar to Progressive Rail's Airlake operation.
BRAKIE Still all I needed was the car number and where it went and that can be dupicated on any size layout. IMHO its less messy and far less work.
You might want to take a look at JMRI's OperationsPro to see how that's done. You can pick from a number of options, including custom-formatted 3rd party options, but at it's most basic level it really just gives you car numbers/descriptions and locations. See especially the sections on Manifests and Switch Lists.
And no, you don't need to have your computer connected to your layout in any way to use JMRI's OperationsPro. You don't even need to have a computer in the layout room. All the trains can be built and the paperwork printed in advance.
It has a number of users on various-sized layouts, some of who have converted to OperationsPro from paid (and sometimes quite expensive!) Ops software packages.
cuyamaThat's because it’s out of context of the layout itself. Newbies to operations come up to speed very fast on the layout with a knowledgeable mentor helping out on their first couple of trips. It’s actually not that hard at all. And on your own layout, you can start really simply just by moving a few cars in a purposeful way. Then add complexity and challenge only if it seems like fun.
I'll let you convince the 5 y/o of that! :D Seriously tho, when we're not "racing trains" (I know, but sometimes they're slow races), I try to get him to think about moving cars around the layout in a fun way. His favorite things to move around on the layout are trucks and livestock (cows). He also enjoys taking the diesels in for "fueling" (we don't have a real fueling station. lol). We have no real rhyme or reason, but it's still fun.
Kudlor I have a large layout where I'm running both unit, freight and passenger trains. Most of my freight trains are going to come from staging and end up in staging making 3 or 4 stops along the way to pickup and drop off cars in a "local" yard. At these local yards, a local switcher will spot cars at the local industries and move other cars to the local yard to a departure track. What should I use for the through freight trains and local switchers -- Waybills, Switch Lists, a combination or something else. If possible I'd like to use just switch lists, but not sure how you use for both the through freight and local switcher. For example, would the local switch list show which cars would be dropped off by the various through freight trains, which are to be picked up and at what time the through freight would be arriving. Your replies will be greatly appreciated.
Kudlor, you may want to take a look at JMRI's OperationsPro. It will easily handle all your stated requirements. You would use manifests for your through freights and switch lists for your local switchers, and you can customize how each of them looks.
And no, you do not need to be using DCC, or have JMRI connected to your layout in any way, or even have the computer in the layout room. OperationsPro is completely separate from the physical layout.
You input the specifics of your layout (locations, yards/spurs/staging, routes, etc), your car roster (and optionally your loco roster), set up your preferences and options, and your trains. Then you tell OperationPro build those trains and print the paperwork.
OperationsPro is very powerful, and has great support on the JMRI list both from the developer who writes the code and from a number of users, some of whom are quite advanced.
http://jmri.org/help/en/package/jmri/jmrit/operations/Operations.shtml
http://jmri.org/
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/jmriusers/info
StevertYou might want to take a look at JMRI's OperationsPro to see how that's done
I'm pretty familiar with Operations Pro and it absolutely does not build all the schedules, timetables and train instructions from only car number and destination. There's a lot of other input and work needed in programming to create a multi-operator session with interactions between trains, yards, staging, etc. That's the point. (and why there are dozens of options to program)
The output of an individual switchlist isn’t the issue. It's also how to communicate to each operator how to do his or her job and coordinating all of the operators and all of the jobs into a satisfying session that (if desired) reflects prorotype practice.
[Parenthetically, JMRI Ops has come a very long way, but some of the folks I know running it are sometimes frustrated at not being able to reflect more prototypical interactions between trains (different levels of service, expedited trains -- not just individual cars), dedicated switchers vs. more prototypical multi-town locals, etc. ]
StevertOperationsPro is completely separate from the physical layout.
But note that as you move trains, you must constantly update the program so it knows where the cars are located. This is one of the challenges with JMRI Ops (or any switchlist program) that can manifest itself in yards especially.
cuyamaBut note that as you move trains, you must constantly update the program so it knows where the cars are located. This is one of the challenges with JMRI Ops (or any switchlist program) that can manifest itself in yards especially.
I also don't see how 'pre-baked' manifests work for anything other than the trains that start the operating session in staging unless your railroad runs like clockwork, or doesn't run on a clock at all and you just run trains sequentially. Routing cars properly around trains that don't always run on schedule is half the puzzle, no?
Kudlor　 To clarify, when my through freight leaves staging, the Waybills for all the cars will accompany the train operator, 　
To clarify, when my through freight leaves staging, the Waybills for all the cars will accompany the train operator, 　
Correct (car cards and waybills typically, depends on how its set up, lots of options).　
　 then the Waybills for the cars dropped off in a yard are turned and handed to the local switching loco operator -- maybe put in the local Waybill boxes at the local yard. Correct? A freight cars Waybill will show going from staging to a particular yard and then, when turned, will show the car going from the local yard to the destination industry. Correct?　
then the Waybills for the cars dropped off in a yard are turned and handed to the local switching loco operator -- maybe put in the local Waybill boxes at the local yard. Correct? A freight cars Waybill will show going from staging to a particular yard and then, when turned, will show the car going from the local yard to the destination industry. Correct?　
You could set it up that way, but in my experience, no.　
A waybill is a document that routes a train from an origin (shipper) to a reciever (consignee). It covers the whole trip. If I am shipping a car from Los Andeles to New York that would be ONE move on a waybill. It might interchange with 4 different railroads be handeled by 20 trains and be switched at a dozen yards, but its one move. Origin to destination. Classically a waybill is turned when it reaches its destination (and is either loaded or unloaded) or changes status (stored/held to active movement). Typically a yard is not a destination where a car is loaded or unloaded and unless the car is going to be held or stored at the yard, it typically doesn't change status there.　
Normally waybill boxes are either set up one per track in a yard. On line it might be one per track or 3 per station. One box each for set outs, holds and pick ups.　
There is aplan for how the trains move and then the cars are assigned to the trains that move cars going to the destinations the train goes to. If you have a train out of Anna staging going to the yard at Dora, it really doesn't matter where teh cars actually go, any cars on that train are going to Dora. My railroad has staging at R, three stations B, C and W and a branch to K. At B there is a car that goes to a local industry at K. The yard engine at B sees the car goes to K, consults a list that says cars for K get mixed in with the W's. The yard engin switches the K in with teh W's and puts themon a through freight that goes to W, in a group with all the W cars. When the train gets to W, the yard engine there sees the car goes to K and reads a list that says cars for K go on the K local. The next session the W yard job builds a K local with all the K cars. The K local takes the train to K, sees that the the car goes to the gunpowder works and spots the car at the gunpowder works. So far we haven't turned a card. Its the same move since the very first step at B. 　
The 3rd session I will turn the waybill on the car and see its billed a destination that is far away, reached through the staging at R via B. The K local runs, sees the car is going to R. The K local takes all of its outbound cars back to W. At W the yard job sees the car goes to R, so it puts it on a train that carries R cars. The next session the W yard job puts the cars with a group of other cars going to R and puts that on train that carries R's. The R train operates. A trains with cars for R terminate at B and the B yard engine sees the car goes to R, so it puts the R car in with a group of other R cars and shoves it into an R staging track.　
The car has traveled from one end of the layout to the other and back, its taken 4 session to do it, its been handled by 4 switch engines at 2 yards, been on 2 locals and 2 through freights, and the waybill was only turned once, then the train was spotted at the destinationand it changed from an empty to a load.　
Once its in staging I will pull that waybill and apply another (I only use 2 move waybills). If you use 4 move waybills, you could just turn the waybill and keep going.　
　 At the beginning of a session, there may be Waybills in the boxes at the local yard for the local switching operator to move cars from industry to the departure track and possibly cars in the yard to be moved to industries. Correct? 　
At the beginning of a session, there may be Waybills in the boxes at the local yard for the local switching operator to move cars from industry to the departure track and possibly cars in the yard to be moved to industries. Correct? 　
A the beginning of a session I will have CC&WBs in the staging yard boxes, in the various track boxes at the yards (that have cars in them), in the track boxes at the online stations (that have cars in them).　
　 Am I correct that the local switching loco operator is responsible for setting out cars on the departure track in the proper order for the through trains to pick up? The through freight operator is responsible for cutting out cars to be dropped off in the local yard and for properly placing the appropriate cars from the departure track in their train. Right?　
Am I correct that the local switching loco operator is responsible for setting out cars on the departure track in the proper order for the through trains to pick up? The through freight operator is responsible for cutting out cars to be dropped off in the local yard and for properly placing the appropriate cars from the departure track in their train. Right?　
No one answer to a lot of your questions. That is one way of doing it but there are others. The local might bring all the cars back to the yard and the yard job will switch up the cars an build the through freights. If there is no yard job then the local might. The through freights are normally blocked, that is the train only works selected stations and only has cars that go to that station (i.e. make a connection to another train or go on a local/switcher to industry or interchange at that station), and all the cars for a particular station are grouped together. If my though freight at B has set outs for both C and W, then all the yard job at B will put all the C's together and all the W's together. They shouldn't be mixed willy nilly. When the train gets to C it makes a straight set out and setout out all the C's in one group or block of cars. It will only pick up cars that are in blocks for the remaining stations the train works on its route. If the stations on a route are A-B-C-D-E and a train runs from A to E with a stop at C, it won't carry cars that set out at B or D and won't stop at B or D to pick up. If it picks up at C, it only picks up E's because the only place it stops after C is E. Cars for B and D will be handled by other trains.　
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
cuyamaBetter yet, cite some examples of multi-operator sessions that you have developed and managed on actual layouts using only car number and destination as the only paperwork. Perhaps we can all learn from your techniques.
Already did in my first reply..You seem to be wanting to follow the CC/WB path so,my style won't please you even if I wrote a article for MR explaining it step by step.
CC/WB must deal with 4 sided waybills including routing..All my easy peasy methods just deals with the car's number,JMRI's operation Pro and a printer..The modeler will have to work out a system that suits his needs.
And yes,Progressive Rail's Airlake operation is well suited for a ISL or could be a part of a basement size layout.
BRAKIEcuyama Better yet, cite some examples of multi-operator sessions that you have developed and managed on actual layouts using only car number and destination as the only paperwork. Perhaps we can all learn from your techniques.
BRAKIEAlready did in my first reply.
Not at all. Nothing in your first reply explained managing multiple trains interacting, crew instructions, serving multiple stations/towns, or anything of the sort using only car number and destination.
BRAKIEAll my easy peasy methods just deals with the car's number,JMRI's operation Pro and a printer.
You cannot have actually used JMRI Ops to move multiple trains, manage yards, staging, and multiple on-line locations. JMRI takes a lot of programming and tuning to achieve all that. How is that "easy-peasy"?
Making a switchlist for one station or location for one train is easy. That's not what the Original Poster is asking.
BRAKIE.You seem to be wanting to follow the CC/WB path so,my style won't please you even if I wrote a article for MR explaining it step by step.
I've used CC&WB and switchlists both. I happen to like CC&WB after working with both, especially for working in active classification yards.
If you have a method that generates timetables, crew instructions, yard cut lists, etc. -- and at the same time manages interactions between multiple trains and multiple crews for multiple locations all from entering only car number and destination one time with no other programming, you've found the Holy Grail. It's sure not documented on the JMRI Ops site. You should share it in more detail.
BRAKIECC/WB must deal with 4 sided waybills including routing
That's not correct, by the way. Single-sided waybills also work great, just slip a new one in when restaging. Now that's easy-peasy. Train instructions can take care of the routing in many cases, otherwise it's one line one time on a waybill. How hard is that?
Switchlists are fine, CC&WB are fine. But let's be realistic about the strengths and weaknesses of each and the realities of setting up multi-operator sessions on larger layouts -- which is much more than just car movement.
I just use car cards and waybills. If I were to write a switch list I would just be writing the information from the car cards and way bills onto the list. Instead the list is in my head based on the cards in my hand. On the front side of a way bill is a request for an empty car. It states where the car is to be loaded and with what. The top two lines are the address:Name of business:Town located in:The waybill is not turned until after it is spotted at the business and has had time to be loaded. This is usually done before the start of the next session. Once the waybill is turned it shows the new address it is being sent too. In your case you can start with the waybill already turned if you start it in the staging yard and just want to drop off a loaded car. Or you could use the front (empty) side of the waybill to route the car to the staging yard to begin with so it can be loaded ‘beyond the basement‘. That is what I do.
cuyama If you have a method that generates timetables, crew instructions, yard cut lists, etc. -- and at the same time manages interactions between multiple trains and multiple crews for multiple locations all from entering only car number and destination one time with no other programming, you've found the Holy Grail. It's sure not documented on the JMRI Ops site. You should share it in more detail.
Kudlor If possible I'd like to use just switch lists, but not sure how you use for both the through freight and local switcher. For example, would the local switch list show which cars would be dropped off by the various through freight trains, which are to be picked up and at what time the through freight would be arriving.
I use much the same system as Lone Wolf, on a much smaller scale.
A train order card may say "Lindsay local freight. Pick up cars on track zero.
Proceed north thru Mrtyle. Spot cars and Pickup cars as indicated at Seagrave and Lindsay.
Return southbound to the Yard.
Sort cars as indicated.
Owner (me) turns waybills between sessions.
I also recently visited a club layout. They used 10 (ten) position waybills.
This means that a car going to east yard says so, then at the arrival yard the yard operator receives the car with the waybill alrady turned by the train conductor, so he knows where it is to go.
The waybill is a strip of paper, and turning it involves refolding for new instructions visible.
Ten years ago I operated once on a7000 sq. ft O scale layout, with about 1000 cars. They used CC&WB as the system is self correcting.
StevertDo you have to enter data and set up your routes, trains, etc. to make that happen? Of course you do! How else is the program supposed to know about your layout or operating scheme?
Exactly the point. It's not just entering "Car number and destination"
davidmurrayThis means that a car going to east yard says so, then at the arrival yard the yard operator receives the car with the waybill alrady turned by the train conductor, so he knows where it is to go.
Here's where CC/WB operation goes South..A real yard conductor doesn't see a waybill since he has no need to. A road conductor turned his bills into the yard office and the yard clerks write up switch list for the yard conductor with copies for the brakemen. If the cars are being hump then a copy to the hump operator.
I used CC/WB since Doug Smith article on CC/WB operation appeared in MR way back in 61 or 62. I stopped last year due to the fact I never worked with a waybill and the need to write a CC and WBs for new cars and each of my cars had ten waybills since that avoided that "Gee,there's that Chessie boxcar going to the team track again syndrome.It now could go to any of my industries that receives boxcars.
By using numbers I no longer need to dig through waybills before operation or turn waybills between operation for the cars that is to be picked up.
Now like the prototype I do not switch each industry every day.The crew may only have to pick up one car or deliver one car or could have up to 10 cars to spot with as many pickups.
Other days there is no work to be done and the two man crew does other tasks like maintenance on the engine and cutting grass around the office and cut weeds along the ROW.That's my excuse when I have other things to do and don't get a chance to do my daily operation.
Lonnie Utah, from one 'Let's keep it simple' operator to another, I will agree with you that it is all about keeping it simple and fun when operating trains with a young grandchild (in my case, a 7-year old).
But, in deference to cuyama and the others who have replied to this thread, true operations on a model railroad involve the simulation of the prototype and, for operation-oriented modelers, it is a lot of fun to add the "complexity" of CC&WB.
And, secretly, I must admit, there is something about the use of CC&WB that I am probably missing when running trains around a large layout without stopping to take the time to conduct prototypical operations that my layout is, in fact, set up for.
Rich
Alton Junction
LION uses the OS sheets from the 242nd Street Tower.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS