Hi Joe,
Sounds like another option to join the fun. There are several other similar models on the market already.
The Eachine E50 "Elfie" is well under $100. It appears to be a knock-off of the ~$350 Zerotech Dobby Poscket Selfie Drone. The still somewhat more expensive (~$500) Yuneec Breeze is another option, as is the Parrot BeBop..
But my ~$60 515 quadcopter can do basically the same thing with a little practice. Once you get used to flying a drone backwards as it's turned around and facing you, any drone can be a selfie drone. If it has headless mode, this makes that easy, just face it toward you when doing the start-up/calibrate sequence.
You are right that size matters. The smaller/lighter the drone, the less potential for it to cause damage, because you will crash unless you've already got lots of piloting experience.
What I wish my drone did better was hold altitude more precisely. The big issue over the layout are the ground effects caused by propwash against the layout in close proximity. I assume, but can't say for certain, that pricier drones have better altitude hold precision. Worth a test flight before purchase, if it can be arranged.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Theres a new drone coming out soon called the airselfie (meant to replace selfie sticks) Its a small drone that supposed to take pictures or video up to about 60 feet from its base. Though pricey IMHO at $295 it might have the potential because of its size for aerial layout shots. Read about it yesterday.
Joe Staten Island West
One option with my drone is that the camera is adjustable from straight forward to straitght down, giving you some shooting option.s
The limiting ceiling keeps these from being better, but they reveal useful details. Here's part of the Durango station, icehouse and turntable (complete with propwash blown truck).
Silverton at the North Star mill
yougottawantaMost RR are not built for the "drone point of view"
It is a matter of perspective, so if the layout is all "letterboxed" in and stacked up, true enough, you'll have trouble flying a drone over it because of the ground effects issues I've been dealing with. You really need about 3' of overhead space to make this work right now.
In the future, I can seea new class of ultralight drones whose more limited propwash will make using them easier.
But people with an interest -- not saying anyone needs to buy a drone -- might start planning and building so that when the follow-me drone for the layout becomes a practical reality, they'll be ready to enjoy it. For starts, that would include avoiding hidden track...
But doing that is right where layout planning is nowadays. We try to avoid hidden track as much as possible -- although I'll admit my layout sure doesn't meet that standard. In any case, I'm sure that there will be people experimenting with this in different ways. Like sound, drones on the layout will be a bit wonky while the basics get figured out, but I suspect that wide adoption will eventually come, simply because they're already so cheap.
The technology to do decent imaging is certainly already here, it's a matter of repackaging and adapting it to suit our needs. Here's an interesting side by side comparison of two pics of the same subject from this week's WPF. The first was taken with my Canon digicam on a nice Sony tripod. The second was taken by the no-name camera on my $55 drone. Not a bad matchup, considering what the Canon cost me.
Canon PS XS100
The Quadcopter generic 2.0 Mp
I am not a big fan. Most RR are not built for the "drone point of view"
BruntonI don't think you'll ever get a drone to do what you want. You would need to be able to control its position to within fraction of an inch, especially vertically. Even high-cost drones don't offer the sort of precision flying you need.
Hi Mark,
I'm not trying to duplicate what a good camera would do with the drone or to simulate the drone's flight so much as provide a new perspective. So I don't need precision so much as a way to simply hold and use a camera in a new way. Not sure if the last video I posted just above here is working for people or not yet, but it shows the sort of possibilities that this new technology represents.
In part, this includes a more light-hearted approach to the idea of layout photography. I try to fly with the goal of getting particular views, but now it's with the realization I can't always control what shows up once the video is downloaded. But what comes out is almost always interesting. This lack of control will definitely put some people off, because it's a hobby where being somewhat OCD is pretty rampant. I am that my way to a certain extent, but I also rather enjoy the random and often paradoxical results.
So what's coming out after many practice flights, I am getting what I expected, which is to expect the unexpected and embrace it. I do aim to improve on those results, although progress has been a little slower than hoped. Probably why they like to train young pilots and not 60-ish ones
A guy on another forum decided to do a "drone" flyover of his layout. It worked out great. What he did was to move a hand-held video camera in a "drone-like" manner, then add quad copter sound effects later.
I don't think you'll ever get a drone to do what you want. You would need to be able to control its position to within fraction of an inch, especially vertically. Even high-cost drones don't offer the sort of precision flying you need.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
With the mod to help the barometric sensor, the quadcopter few much better, more stable. I already knew what was behind where I drilled the holes, but if you're uncertain, take a look first by opening things up enough by loosening the screws.
With better flight performance came the increasingly obvious problem of getting too close to the ceiling. This causes another issue with the barometric sensor. The strong downdraft the copter generates makes for low pressure right at the ceiling, so it tends to want to move into the low pressure. I'm not sure why, as I'd thinking the sensor would then cause the copter to seek lower altitude. I suspect the downdraft is strong enough to overcome the ability of the sensor to order a lower altitude. So I fabbed a bumper cage to keep the copter from latching onto the ceiling like a tick.
It slips into holes in the body, so is easy to remove. It does make for a somewhat top-heavy copter, but is easy enough to fly. I made mine from the plastic sleeved steel line/piping found in the Plastruct refinery kit.
But there was tragedy involved. One of the area's mysterious vehicles crashed and burned. Several witnesses were present when the flying-sauver-like object landed in the middle of Animas Forks and took out three of the old prospector's burros
It turned into a hit and run when the mysterious drone left the scene and fled.
Some calls to the Air Force suggested possible answers and this supposed dashcam video...
ThreeDroneShortsNVEExport.0003 from Mike Lehman on Vimeo.
Thanks for the support, Guy. I actually lived in the Wright Bros home town, Dayton, for a coupel of years as a kid. Maybe something rubbed off?
In that vein, I may actually have come up with a solution to the serious control problems experienced when this machine is in ground effects, which seems to be causing most of the dodgy flying once analyzed.
The barometric switch is mounted at the rear of the chassis in the very back of the body. The whole thing is basically a two-part clamshell, with the main board, etc mounted in the bottom of the top half. Eight screw attach the bottom to the top. It's not airtight around the mating surfaces, but fits closely. There is some opening area where the battery compartment door slides open. Then there are four oval peneings, tow on each side, which seem to have been made specificallyas vents. A part of that is cooling the electronics, but doubt anything but the motors on outriggers are getting more than even a little warm.
What the vents also do is provide openings for the air pressure to shift in and out. They are located towards the middle of the underside. So the barometric switch is in what's basically a bucket. Anything coming in bangs down on the sensor and bounces off the interior of the enclosed end, permitting a second pulse to also cause the system to quiver far too easily.
In effect, the control system is reacting to the instantaneous inputs of air pressure, mostly caused by the ground effects bouncing off various elements in close proximity to the drone. That's why the darn thing is so jittery when it's close to anything solid or that would cause it to reverberate, as it's contantly shaken back and forth by whatever bounces back from the propwash.
What we really want the barometric sensor to do is sense difference sin air pressure caused by altitude. How to accomplist this? I came up with an elegant solution. The back part of the lower shell is curved and there's even a QC sticker there on mine to help guide you. Simply drill 5 small holes there jusr far enough inside the edge to clear the outer shell. This vents the end of the body, so that changes caused by propwash blow through more than they affect the sensor, yet the longer term pressue changes caused by changing altitude remain fully detectable.
I then flew the drone and found it's much calmer when close to both horizontal and vertical surfaces. Now things remain under control instead of tending toward the bezerk. Don't think I'll try a layout room test flight tonight, but I hope to be able to show some improvement tomorrow.
Pic of the simple vent barometric sensor vent mod.
Note the five small holes drilled around the QC sticker. That's all you need to do.
Mike,
Keep going. Orville and Wilbur would have been proud of you.
Guy
Modeling CNR in the 50's
rrinker Perhaps as camera technology improves this will become more feasible, but a tiny camera is not going to be as good as a larger one, and a small drone doesn;t have enough lift to carry a big camera. And unless you have a hanger size layout, a drone big enough to carry a nice camera is too large to fly indoors. Catch-22. The small ones also tend to be twitchy and not always have all the cool stability stuff you cna get in larger ones
Randy,
Thanks for the comments. Yes, this is right at the bleeding edge of being viable. The features on bigger drones are just starting to filter down to drones more suitably sized for indoor use like this, but I suspect it's the sort of thing that will progress rapidly.
I certainly won't brag on my piloting skills, they're pretty lame, even for a twitchy old guy like me. I think this experiment is more about establishing feasibility and inspiring others to give it a try. I was/am concerned about potential damage, but despite my clumsy attempts at avoiding it, crashes have done very minimal damage. Biggest one was next to three tracks in the Durango yard, but the drone is light enough all it did was knock a truss rod lose on a Blackstone drop-bottom gon. I thought it knocked a truck off, too, but turned out that I'd lost the mounting screw somewhere and only gravity was holding things in place, so a net positive in letting me know to effect a repair. Also popped the top cable tie lose on a stiff-leg derrick at the lumber mill, but what looked like a real mess required simply putting the hook back on the pin at the top.
Yes, progress with this depends on further modernization. If this drone were half the weight, it would be even safer for most stuff in HO. And any thoughtful pilot will try to steer a crash to less populated areas, but that depends on control and most of the time that's why I'm crashing, for lack of...but I do what I can.
In the end, yeah, I could crash into something I spent hours or days on, but that's life in the real world. We usually avoid tornados, hurricanes, plane crashes, and wind storms in the layout room unless the intrude there from the 1:1 world.
The wind storm thing is, I think, the major sticking point with drones over the layout. Lose stuff will get flung. But the biggest problem is the interaction between the prop wash and the barometric sensor and its effect on holding altitude. I've got an idea or two on dampening its sensitivity, so may add that to the test program.
Ultimately, low and slow is how to take good pics, along with any stability augmentation features, so progress will come.
What I envision are smaller, more sophisticated drones that are able to follow your train in "selfie" mode, sending the image back to your DCC or other controller, but thta's down the road a little as improvements bring us smaller drones with better stability features, as well as improved cameras. I will say that the 2.0 Mp camera is a big improvement over the 0.3 Mp one on the Brookstone. While not as good as a handheld, they can be quite good if the platform is close to motionless...still a challenge for me.
BMMECNYC Do the ducts interfere with the camera field of view?
Do the ducts interfere with the camera field of view?
Just to follow-up on this, no, the ducts don't seem to be an issue, even if the camera is pointed straight ahead. I've built new ducts since I've confirmed they're OK like this and will have a pick of the drone with them up a little later.
Perhaps as camera technology improves this will become more feasible, but a tiny camera is not going to be as good as a larger one, and a small drone doesn;t have enough lift to carry a big camera. And unless you have a hanger size layout, a drone big enough to carry a nice camera is too large to fly indoors. Catch-22. The small ones also tend to be twitchy and not always have all the cool stability stuff you cna get in larger ones - if you watch videos of people flying the small ones, usually the showoffs with great reflexes are flipping them over and zooming in and around obstacles as fast as possible. Two different friends of mine have two different types of the large outdoor ones - one guy likes to take pictures, so his is a highly stable model with all sorts of homing features so he can fly it up almost out of sight but be assured he can get it back in a known area before descending. The photos he has taken from it are breathtaking. One taken from behind his house showed an old (but still active) N&W, now NS branch line near him south of Roanoke. My other friend is all about the stunt flying. his videos are not usually from on board, but show him flying th thing upside down towards the ground at high speed and at the last second inverting and just kissing particularly tall blades of grass. His drone has two of the motors close together - picture doing a jumping jack with your feet together but arms up. That's how it can do crazy stunts, but it's also a lot harder to fly.
I only have one of the little ones, but without a camera of any sort. I can generally fly for a whole battery charge without crashing, but I still don't think I'd want to fly over my layout (if I had one at the moment). It's not too difficult to get the same effect with a smartphone and a selfy stick, unless your layout is a HUGE island. Maybe if I were more confident of my piloting skills, but even with rings around the props you cna still do some heavy damage to HO scenery and structure details.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
This drone is decidedly easier to fly than the dodgy little Brookstone. I'd also gained confidence from all the practicing with its limitations. The early test flights with the Quadcopter showed lots of promise. In large part this was due to the altitude hold feature, which depends on a barometric sensor/switch. When it is useful, you're more likely to find yourself flying in less confining spaces than the layout. Or that's my excuse anyway.
Looking around, I found a review of the same control system (but not the same drone). One of the prominent comments was on how windy conditions sometimes played havoc with the sensor. It is rather sensitive, so this makes sense. After gaining confidence in my flying outside the layout room, flying over the railroad proved more difficult. I am chalking this up the confined area and the odd blasts of winds this creates by the drone flying over in such close proximity to the ground.
Crash at Cement Creek AKA MOVI0019 from Mike Lehman on Vimeo.
A pretty darn good flight will be posted in WPF, but I wanted to emphasize the difficulties with this one. I'm sure I'll improve. I really did some banging around at first, but did only some minor damage that was easy to fix. The way this drone is setup tends to minimize any damage it'll cause. But flying over the labor of love that a layout is is always going to be tricky, you have to be willing to take some risk.
One thing I found helped were the ducts I made for the fans. I left them off at first, fearing they might concentrate the downblast too readily. The drone is powerful enough to find all your loose ballast, other scenery materials, light structures, and vehices. But the ducts seem to run interference for the barometric sensor. All of the sudden I was flying better because of their moderating the disturbed air around the Drone. Not great, but better.
One more piece of business. On the first page I illustrated the app on my iPhone 4 I thought was the correct one, since there are two choices presented in the App Store. Here's the one that you need, GX_UFO.
So with that straightened out, I'd hoped to use the phone as a FPV monitor, as designed and advertised. So far no joy. I have yet to see any wifi signal from the drone, which is generated by the small pod that holds the camera. My iPhone 5 will be out of the shop any day, so will try it next. Not too big a deal, but hope to have this symptom fixed soon.
OK, got some more mods done, test flights flown, and video. I'm going to start with the battery mod. The drone shipped with one battery -- and it turned out to have a bad cell even though I was able to fly it briefly before it grew so weak the drone couldn't lift off. After a couple of emails to the vendor sorting things out, a new battery is on it's way.
I was impatient to fly, so also ordered a 3-pack of batteries and charging gear. These had a standard JST connector frequently used in drones. The OEM battery used a proprietary connector to discourage swapping it out. The supplied charger seems a bit flaky, while the one that came with the extra batteries from Bloomiky works well and charges fast.
To use the extra batteries, I needed to swap in a suitable connector on the drone, so I ordered some JST connector pairs with pigtails. To do this right, a new connector also needs to be soldered to the board as a spliced pair on this connector seems chancy. Here is the new one on the left and the old one on the right.
To do this, the drone requires disassembly, here's a few pics.
Basically, you take the leads off the motors at one end by desoldering them from the board, the rotate back and lay down the one half of the drone body backwards to gain access, extract the old battery leads and install the new pigtails cut to suitable length. I found about an extra inch of lead was helpful. Here's what's under the hood.
The small box with the yellow wires running over it is the barometric sensor. More on this in a moment.
While I was in there, I found the antenna was laid down atop the board. Sometimes antenna polarity is important, but in this case I thought the omnidirectional nature of the upright whip worked best, so I drilled a hole in the top of the shell so it could stand up for maximum range.
I carefully reassembled things, but could now swap in batteries as needed. The product listing indicated that you should not do this, something about the coreless motors overheating. I don't run them fast or hard enough for it to be an issue, but would be important to monitor if you did.
After last nights test flights, I'm not surprised the miner's militia plans to do something...
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Possibly, have to test it with power once the good batteries get here today. It would be when the camera is swiveled so it points straight ahead, if it's an issue, less so if it's angled downward more. I suspect it's OK as is or the ducts could be trimmed. That's what R&D is all about
Another good feature on this drone is the short overall height (~2") combined with the smooth top without projections. This allows flight at maximum altitude, given inside layouts have a ceiling -- that is obviously a hard limit, unlike in outdoor flight. Along with the blade guards, this should allow it to bump against the ceiling and slide along it just in case of contact, rather than catching a blade and throwing it out of control.
OK, now let's turn the modded drone right side up...
Looks pretty good to me, like it means business. Note the shrouds reach downward, but leave plenty of clearance so the drone will land on its legs unless it's really canted, which shouldn't happen so long as the auto-land feature is used.
There's more than good looks and simple protection going on with the ducted fans. A good intro is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ducted_fan
Besides the protection factor, other advantages are increased efficiency and reduced noise. I hope to be able to operate the drone at slower speeds, while making the battery last longer.
Speaking of the battery, it failed or was bad to begin with in one cell. So I'm waiting on replacements. The original vendor is sending a warranty replacment and I have three more coming from a vendor here in the US that should be here Wed.
BMMECNYC Video looks great. And those caged propellors should help keep the layout safe.
Video looks great. And those caged propellors should help keep the layout safe.
Thanks!
And you've managed to introduce the next part of the project, considering any mods that might help limit the potential of the drone to damage the layout, primarily due to what accident investigators like to call "uncontrolled flight."
First off are the specs I listed earlier in what I looked for in a drone. If the image you happen to have about this is drones zipping everywhere, bouncing off the walls, here the goal is low and slow. The slower and more controlled the flight envelope can be, the better off you'll be over the layout. The barometric switch to hold the altitude is a big part of this, along with auto land/launch, as it puts the steady hand of the robot at the controls in the most critical parts of flight. A controller that fits your hands well is also a factor, as you can't control the drone well if you can't manipulate the controls well. The drone has these features and my initial impression is they work wonders on improving my flying.
But the guarded props are the big deal here. That was the first thing I looked for beyond the basic performancer features I outlined. Surprisingly, the guards didn't look like they'd help much if the drone descended on something in landing. There are four stub legs that stick down, combining this support with the motor housings. Each has a nice rubbery knob to further protect with hard landings. The guards don't project downward much from the prop, but looking at things gave me some ideas.
If you look closely, you can see the mod I made here. I took 0.010" plastic sheet and cut bands (about 5/8" wide) that fit into the lip that's formed as part of the undersidee of the blade guards. They just wedge in, no glue needed, with a notch for the frame x-member that holds the motor and another for the LED to peek through. They are tall enough to take up most of the space between the prop blades and the ground. Leaving them unglued also allows them to breakaway easily in the event of a crash, taking up energy that would other wise be transmitted to the drone's body. In the event one was damaged, it's easier to replace like that, too.
Here's an angled pic of the underside to help the explanation provided in the last paragraph.
Dissipating energy works both ways in the event of a crash, protecting what's on the layout, too. This mod will help with that but (knock on wood) the new drone will crash less and with less potential to damage anything.
Making them removable also makes the major downside of the ducts less objectionable. The ducts do add a lot to the side profile of the drone, making it more susceptible to crosswinds if it was flown outside. Not a problem in the basement, where the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.
Note the center of the underside above has the pod that contains the camera, plus holds a micro SD card (4 Gb instead of the 2 that was promised) and generates the wifi link that provides control and video via smartphone apps. Note the swiveling camera, which goes from straight ahead to straight down depending on the angle you want to set. Underneath it is the battery compartment door.
But wait! There's more to the story of ducted fans, which I will cover in the next installment.
Thanks! I read your earlier comments on your joystick klutziness and had to laugh, as it certainly sounds like just about my skill level. So if I can pull this off, probably anyone can, it was way easier to control things needing only 2 hands instead of 3. Plus I hope the mods I'm going to show will also help. The R&D phase continues soon...
That's a huge improvement,Mike,and I'm sure it will only get better as you become more familiar with it. 'Looking forward the new views of your layout.
Mike
Well, I won't absolutely promise over-the-layout video by the time WPF rolls around, just maybe...
My drone arrived expeditiously and here is the unboxing sequence, condensed version.
The controller, fits my hands well, solid, nice control feel
The manual is a bit iffy in translation, but you'll manage. Here's the drone
As you can see, it's quite compact. Overall height is ~2". Operating radius is listed in the manual as 50 meters, but will be tested later. Video from first flight shows how much more stable it is than my crazy little Brookstone:
MOVI0000 from Mike Lehman on Vimeo.
You might note Wally the cat peering around the corner in the frame briefly at the beginning, as well as his tail later on. No cats were harmed in the production of this video.
The auto takeoff/auto-landing feature works great, but the best of all is the barometric switch that holds altitude. First results shows it stays within a couple of inches. This leaves the operator free to worry about direction and taking pics, much reducing the pilot workload. The steadiness of the initial flight was amzing to exprience. So more is coming soon, including some theory and mods that I think are useful to consider and easily done with this drone...
The FPV is provided via Wifi to your smart device. I do have the app on my iPhone 4 and this is what it looks like,(still not tested):
Note the iPhone is just propped up by the controller, it doesn't attach. I think you get full drone control via it, in addition to the video link, so looking forward to trying that, too.
There was a battery issue, which I will have resolved, that will follow the next post on some mods I made. I also have to do some "air traffic control" by "landing" my fleet of aircraft that's been hanging around. Then fly, process, and upload the video. Won't promise but do hope I have something exciting for WPF. More soon.
Got an update, as I made a decision on a followup drone to my Brookstone training drone. I won't shill for amazon by posting a link but if you search there for "Kingtoys FPV RC Quadcopter Drone 515V" you should find it. For about $60 shipped, I'll be getting these features that I consider important for operating over the layout.
* headless, so I only need to worry about which way is front when taking pics
* auto liftoff/auto landing, to limit accidents in these crucial moment in flight
* altitude set/hover via barometric sensor, leaves you free to operate camera while drone stays at set height, makes for better pics
* SD card-capable (also has wifi link to your smart phone) makes it easy to get files onto your computer
* 2.0 mp camera, why not take good pics? (although lots of cheap 0.3 mp out there), the lens also adjusts over a wide range so you can take pics/video from multiple angles easily
* includes standard controller (also works via cell phone)
* first person view (FPV) so you can see what the camera will see
The drone is about 7.5 x 7.5 inches, so small and light enough to minimzie any crash consequences. The 3-bladed props are enclosed in protective cages. There are some nice fat rubber bumpers where it lands on the engine nacelles to protect them. Range is listed as an impressive 300 meters (not sure I believe that, but would be cool), more than enough for the planned indoor use.
Delivery is about three weeks out.
Thanks, Henry.
The wyes are #2½ Shinoharas, which is similar to a #5, I'm told. I'm not sure of the curve radii here, but they're at least 30", or possibly a bit bigger. If one were crowded for space, I think some tighter curves could be used.The three legs of the wye each measure about 32" points-to-points, while the tail track leading into the corner adds another 24"
Wayne
mlehmanI know drones must be registered if they exceed 0.55 lbs in weight. That would be a largish drone for inside use and could really cause some havoc if it went down on the layout.
Ah, but in HO that's 0.10 oz.
Paul