Things to do on it.
1. Install tender ladder grabs and ladder which were missing done
2. Install coal load which is missing awaiting
3. Drill out head light through metal body, do I want to do this? awaiting
4. Install light awaiting
5. Install detail parts in work
6. Oil running gear (makes a little noise) awaiting
7. Paint and weather awaiting
8. Make tender underframe done
What oil should I use and where do I put it on motor etc? I have put some grease on the metal gear teeth.
Modeling on the cheap
Your tender view shows the brass wheels on the same side. That's good, if they are on the correct side. The loco picks up current from one rail, the tender from the other. Check to verify they aren't picking up power from the same rail. Since they unit is obviously used, the tender trucks may be reversed. Your photos also show that the tender body and the cab are diecast metal. I would estimate that this was produced in the 50's. IIRC Mantua went to plastic cab and tender in the early 60s. There is a plate on the bottom that holds the drivers. Carefully remove it and you will see that the axles ride in brass bearings. Put a few drops of light oil on each axle. You need to put a drop of oil on the bearings at either end of the motor. The tender doesn't need an "underframe". That type of addition would raise the tender too much. There were great running engines. Have fun.
The Mantua Mikado is a good runner, good and heavy, and can be detailed to look as good as anything. I did a Mantua Pacific some years ago and I have a old Mikado in my "future projects box".
I although performance on the stock open frame motor is quite respectable, I was able to get a can motor conversion kit (motor and bracket) from Mantua. They were still alive back then. The can motor gave really outstanding low speed performance. I think you can still get the kits from Yardbird trains. Or, try replacing the alnico motor magnet with the new nyodinium supermagnets. It turned out the major dimensions (length, height,width) matched those of the B&M P4 class very closely, so my Pacific is a P4. If I was doing it over again I would find some way to blacken the shiny handrails.
Here is my future project Mikado, looking pretty much like it did at the train show I bought it from.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
Yeah, the Tyco/Mantua Mikado was a rather generic 2-8-2, but a great starting point for kitbashing and customising.
I built this one for my son, and fitted it with a can motor and NWSL gearbox.
The vestibule cab was built right over the stock (plastic) cab, then any of the original which showed through the windows was carved away...
I brought its weight up to 33.25oz., so it was not only a smooth runner, but a great puller.
Prior to that, I built this one:
The cab is from MDC, as is the tender, modified to a coal-type, with an open bunker, while the oversize sandbox is from a long Tyco three-dome tank car. The trucks, from PSC, cost more than the locomotive.
Wayne
The pickup wheels on the Mantua tenders are brass and are likely oxidized perhaps to the point of not collecting much current. They should be cleaned -- then try seeing if the engine runs with tender.
If you do not want to remotor, in my experience the early Mantua motors were pretty good but if left unattended the commutator surfaces got grimy. Applying a very light oil to the plates, then rubbing off that oil, will likely show all sorts of dirt. And the gaps between commutator plates tend to accumulate grunge that can be carefully removed with a wood toothpick.
MicroMark offers special magnets that can be placed on open frame motors such as this to beef up the power of motors, particulally older ones.
The generic appearance of the Mantua Pacific and Mike can be changed quite a bit with different cabs, different pilots, and different tenders. If you have the metal cab that is an early version of the engine (which might mean it has the best version of the Mantua motor).
Dave Nelson
On the tender, I would replace the all-plastic wheels on the center axles with matching metal pick-up wheels. In fact, the best way to go is to replace all 6 axles with all-metal wheel sets.
You might extend that concept to the locomotive pilot and trailing truck. People-who-know-things think that having plastic wheels on rolling stock is, uh, a mistake.
You ask about cleaning the commutator. Can't hurt. Undo the brushes from the springs and slide them up. This will make it easier to get at the commutator. I'd first try alcohol on a Q-tip. And then remove the left-behind fibers. If the commutator has a bad surface (your call), you can smooth it with silicon carbide paper. I'd see that as likely unnecesary, though.
Yeah, those look like oil holes. A wee bit of oil shouldn't hurt. It would likely be good to open up the gearbox and inspect the gear surfaces. Maybe clean off any dried grease and/or add new better grease goo.
I see the connection between motor and gear shaft. It's hard to tell what it is. I'm guessing maybe flexible tubing. It could likely be replaced with a driveshaft universal. I know NWSL makes them. It should give you less friction. But, of course, if the existing works well, it may not be necessary.
Looking at the gearbox again, I suspect the "oil" holes are for the worm itself, as opposed to its bearings. Those show at the ends of the box, and need a drop of oil each. If opening up the gearbox is daunting, some thick oil down those two holes might suffice.
As you can see from Wayne's photos, detailing this engine can be fun and rewarding. Top of my list would be changing the cab and getting new sanding lines coming down from the dome. Both of these say "Mantua 2-8-2" to me.
I'm not terribly fond of the tender. I've got their 4-6-2, and I replaced the tender with a bigger Varney one I had. I consider that an improvement. But if you like the existing one, why change?
Ed
Will it be DCC ready?
Some where i have a extra 3 wheel truck off a 4-6-2, not sure where it is, a lot of my stuff is packed away in storage. After looking at hundreds at lest pictures a 3 wheel truck on a 2-8-2 is verey rare they had 2 wheel trucks for the most part. If i can find my old 3 wheel truck plan on replacing the plastic wheel with a brass one of of it.
The oil holes on the gear box are not verey deep. not sure if that is normal or not.
Dcc lol heck no!!! of the hundreds of engines i have i have one that is DCC and it was for the train club that i used to belong two, It hardly ran it was so pickey on the track. If DCC had one more letter in it, it would be a four letter word.
I Plan of detailing this one, and a IHC 2-8-2 as soon as i have the money to do it. http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/259444.aspx
The original motors of these models were the noisiest component of the drive train, so changing to a can motor will make a big difference. I have used the mantua can motor retrofit kit on one of mine. It is ok, but lt does not have a flywheel, which is a must for this model in my opinion. Enjoy!
Simon
Fourt,I look forward to this rebuild.. If I was doing this rebuild I would really detail this engine to the Nth degree-simlar to Waynes excellent detail upgrade.
--------------------------
Wayne,I would have never guess your engine started life as a Mantua 2-8-2. Wow! Excellent!
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Thanks, Larry. My son is no longer interested in trains, so the Mike was sold to one of my good friends, who's quite taken with it.
I have a similarly modified Bowser K-11 Pacific, which was also done for my son...
...and I have plans to redo it considerably, to match a local prototype (no feedwater heater, no vestibule cab, and a different tender.
While drilling out the headlight back into the body with a 3/32 drill bit i manged to break it off inside the body, not sure how i am going to be able to get it out. I have the worst luck with drill bits.
Hi fourt:
Interesting project!
As far as the broken drill bit goes, is there enough space to put an 0603 LED inside the headlight in front of the broken bit? If there is enough space you could just leave the broken bit where it is and run the LED wires along the outside of the locomotive. If they are magnet wire they would be reasonably close to scale.
If you don't want the wires showing, another alternative would be to drill a hole below where the broken bit is and run the wires through that. It really doesn't matter if the hole is on an angle as long as it comes out inside the shell. You might have to do a little filling in on the bottom of the headlight, or maybe replace the headlight completely if it gets too messed up.
Do you use any oil when you are drilling? If not, you might consider putting a bit of light oil on the tip of the drill bit. It helps to keep the drill bit from binding. It is also a good idea to pull the drill bit out of the hole periodically so you can clean the cuttings off of the bit. White metal tends to foul up the bit which then causes the bit to bind. That puts more stress on the bit.
As I mentioned in the other thread, don't put a lot of pressure on the bit. Let it do the work. Be patient!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
i like your idea about another hole below where i broke the bit. No didnt use any oil, i actully broke the drill when i had it in reverse pulling it out. I might see if a machine shop can drill out the broken one for not to much money.
fourtI might see if a machine shop can drill out the broken one for not to much money.
Unless you know somebody in the business you might be suprised at what a machine shop will charge you. You could probably buy another locomotive to use as a donor for less money.
The other problem with taking it to a machine shop is that they have to clamp it down pretty hard to keep it from moving. That might cause some damage.
Why not just go with the second hole? Nobody will know its there when the locomotive is finished. You like to "model on the cheap" so do it cheap!
If I can suggest, don't reverse the drill when you are pulling it out of the hole. Reversing it causes the cuttings to come out of the flutes on the drill bit and they can then get jammed between the bit and the side of the hole. Drill in 1/8" or so and then pull the bit back out while keeping it spinning in the same direction. Then stop the drill, clean the cuttings off the bit and do the next 1/8". Add a small drop of oil every 1/4" or so. You don't need much.
Yup afrid they will charge a arm and a leg. Looks like the second hole will be the way to go. Bad thing there will be the old drill bit blocking the hole in the smoke stack for the screw that goes in it to hold the body to the frame. Maybe a long narrow punch to break it?
I forgot that you had said that the smoke stack screw hole was blocked. Boy, when you mess up you really do a good job of it!!
Is it possible to drill into the back of the smoke box from inside the shell, maybe with a longer bit? If you could drill in far enough to reach the tip of the broken bit you might be able to drive it out with a punch. You would probably have to drill a fairly large hole so that you can find the tip of the bit.
Not sure, maybe if had very long drill bit could do it going in where the cab is through body, And hope you find the broken bit. Doing that by hand would be a nightmare, maybe a drill press and vise to hold model. Best bet i think is drill through smoke stack to cut broken bit in half. I am leaning toward not putting a working light in it now.
Going to take to my dad tommrow and see what he thinks. You would think after 20 years working on aircraft i would know better, maybe that why i quit that and got differnt job.
You cannot drill out a broken drill bit. Drill bits are made from the hardest steel available and no drill bit will bit into another drill bit. If any part of the broken bit is sticking out, and you can grab it with vicegrips, you might be able to pull it out. It not, it's in there for good.
You can cut a drillbit with an abrasive disk in a Dremel. If the broken drill bit is in the way, and you can get the Dremel in close enough, the abrasive disk will cut right thru the drillbit. On the other hand, if there is enough drillbit sticking out to interfere with the smoke stack screw, or to get at with a Dremel, you ought to be able to grab it with vicegrips. If the regular size vicegrip is too big, they make smaller ones which you can order from places like McMasters Carr.
The little surface mount LED's are plenty bright enough and small enough to fit into the headlight casting as is, without drilling thru the casting.
I too broke a bit in exactly the same scenario. The bit I was using was not the best, so I used the best bit I could find, and successfully drilled through the same hole, but a bit sideways. A risky operation to say the least, but it worked ( with some oil as suggested). Was a lesson for me to only use the best when drilling metal...
I'm sure the model will look great after you reassemble it.
I have vague recollections of an MR Clinic on the topic of removing a broken drill bit from zinc alloy castings, and Gordon Odegard suggesting the use of an acid or chemical that would eat away at the zinc alloy enough to allow the bit to be pulled out. How that would be controlled I do not know. Using acids that powerful in a home environment would scare me.
I agree that drilling into a drill bit is not a happy solution. If the end of the bit is at the surface, is it possible to mill in a slot so that a screwdriver could back it out? Yeah the casting gets milled too but there are putty products to fill that.
A random internet search showed that many non model railroaders also lament this problem. One guy claimed success from a tool intended to extract broken taps.
http://www.sears.com/omegadrill-t-o-broken-tap-extractors-set/p-SPM6375890705
Looking at it, if i cut off the headlight stub, there MIGHT be enough to grab with vice grips. If not i am not sure what i am going to do about part of the bit that goes through the smoke stack where the screw holds the frount on. Which ever way i go will have to wait till tommrow, as dont have time today. Thanks all for the help.
We had a tool in the miltary to remove stuck screws etc, but it is way to big for something the size i have.
The only way I have ever been able to extract a broken drill, in anything, is to get a solid grip on it with a pair of vice grips, then rotate. I think someone else mentioned that.
I learned the hard way not to try half azzed methods first. It just buggers things up and makes it even more difficult when the vice grips finally get deployed.
Best of luck with it.
CG
Used Mantua boilers pop up regularly on Ebay. If your rescue operation fails, it would be easy to replace. Working on old steamers is not always cheap, unfortunately...
It would seem to me that the broken bit in the stack area is of more concern than that for the headlight. If the broken headlight bit isn't in the way, you should be able to use a suitable drift the bash the broken bit out in the direction from which it came. It's unlike that you'll find a suitable drift (at least at a reasonable price), but a suitably-sized nail might do the trick. A hardened nail intended for use in concrete will likely work best, but any nail close in diameter to that of the hole should work. Saw or grind-off the nail's point, then, with the boiler casting well supported (in a vise or atop wooden blocks), insert the nail, noting how deep it goes and give 'er a whack. If the depth to which the nail penetrates has increased, it's likely that the bit has been moved. Continue whacking as necessary, checking periodically to ensure that the nail isn't bending. If it is, prepare and use another one...otherwise, with your luck, the nail itself could become stuck.
LOL had to google what a drift was, a punch is what i would call it, diffrent name same thing. The nail idead might work also. I plan on taking it to my dads tonight and see if there is enough showing once we cut the headlight off to grab it with vice grips.
All this now depends on time to do it, my car started engine started making bad sounds on the way home today, hope to find a place that can take a look at it for cheap, and hope nothing to $$$$ to fix. What a week, the broke bit, the paint spilled all over table floor etc, now the car and the docters visit yesterday for a thumb problem.
fourt:
fourtWhat a week, the broke bit, the paint spilled all over table floor etc, now the car.
Hang in there dude! Things can only get better, well at least they can get better after you see the bill for the car.
I drove clunkers for many years before I could afford a decent car. I had no choice so I made the best of it. The problem these days is that rebuilding an engine is no longer a simple process.
I wish you all the best!
I cut off the headlight nub and there was about 1/4" of the bit sticking out, grabbed a channel lock pliers and gave it a tug out, it came out with no problem, why it broke i have no idea now as i figured it had got jammed in the hole. Now just have to drill the rest of the hole through the body.
The car dealership wanted 120$ just to look at it. Going to shop around monday hopefully get a better price.
fourt,
Glad you picked up the Mantua Mike. I have seen enough that were detailed and weathered to the point you could not believe the relatively crude model was the source. That is a very early model with the LARGE motor, gearbox, and brass wheels. They are supose to be good runners in stock form due to the large motor and gearing. Have fun and show us some pics of the progress.
I have a cheaper version that I was thinking of geting close to a NYC H-7, but moved to N for space reasons and a post 2008 time frame.
https://nycshs.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/h-7mikados.pdf