tomikawaTT BRAKIE Do I strive for perfection? No..I only strive for believability. Larry, you are my hero! Rivet counters hate me. I don't model the rivets! Most of my freight wagons are honest-to-Murgatroyd (almost) RTR tinplate - little galvanized steel boxes with a wheel at each corner and a coupler pocket at each end. The Baker couplers originally installed have long since joined the trash stream. So, what level of precision is necessary, and what can be dispensed with? Let's take a close look at one car, WaRa12345 (don't laugh. I have a prototype photo!) Where is precision and attention to detail important, and where isn't it? Starting at the bottom - the wheels are code 108, 10.5mm diameter nickel silver turnings running on needle-point steel axles (both wheels insulated) in 'bearings' point-punched in the stamped sheet steel pedestals. With a little minor adjusting of those pedestals it's possible to get all wheels equally loaded on the railhead. Manufacturing accuracy of the wheel sets is a close approximation of zero deviation. Once tweaked, tracking is excellent. Then, couplers. Unmodified Kadee #6 couplers can be assembled and leveled with no more difficulty than that found on changing couplers on most North American products. The shims have to be installed at the draft gear box - you can't use washers at the non-existent truck bolsters. (Why #6? Because that's the way the frame/coupler screw geometry works out.) General appearance. The car body is within a millimeter of proper length, and closer than that in width. Pressed steel ends and doors have the appropriate appearance. Some fussy details (door latches, the long-lever foot brake and most grabirons) are absent - but not conspicuously so when seen in motion from a yard away. In all, the little pawn in the Operations chess game passes my good enough test. If I wanted it for a 'ready for prime time' photo or museum diorama it would need at least another week of work - but for now it's GOOD ENOUGH. Locomotives get more scrutiny, so they have to be good enough at 18 inches. OTOH, the running gear, drive system, motor and on-board electricals have to be as close to perfect as I can make them. Function wins over cosmetic appearance, every time. Structures at trackside have to be a bit closer to perfect than rolling stock. They stand still and can be examined in detail. OTOH, reduced-scale structures up a visually compressed model valley may be nothing more than properly shaped and appropriately painted blocks of wood. plaster or whatever. For them, the last coat of paint is a light-to-generous spray of late-summer blue-grey humidity haze. I've been working with the master plan for over half a century, and building on my present 'Last In This Lifetime' layout for a decade (with time out for writing a novel and having a cancer excised.) The basics are set in stone. Additional details are set in un-hardened Jell-O. The layout will be done (but probably not finished) when I am. Chuck (Slowly modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - to a reasonably consistent level of mediocrity)
BRAKIE Do I strive for perfection? No..I only strive for believability.
Do I strive for perfection? No..I only strive for believability.
How about some pics?
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
Neil and Steve, Thanks for the reply.Good to know.
The sad part with photo shop every photo becomes suspect. I've seen photos I had to look at long and hard before I realized I was looking at a highly photo shopped model photo.
One photo that really stump me was a picture of a 1/24 Panzer model interlaid on a actual WWII photo. It was a stunning photo.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Neil B. Sometimes the photographer will extend the sky background to hide walls, furnaces, water heaters, etc., before submitting the photos to MR.
Sometimes the photographer will extend the sky background to hide walls, furnaces, water heaters, etc., before submitting the photos to MR.
I didn't think to mention that, because 1) it isn't done by us and 2) it doesn't in any way alter the appearance of the layout itself.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
One addendum to Steve's list:
Neil Besougloff, editor
Neil Besougloff
editor, Model Railroader magazine
BRAKIE Another bum trip is looking at those super layouts in the pages of MR and other like magazines. I've often wondered how much of those layouts is still the great plywood central. We only see certain areas and not the complete layout on our "guided" pictorial tour and I wonder how many of those photos went through photo shop for editing.
Another bum trip is looking at those super layouts in the pages of MR and other like magazines. I've often wondered how much of those layouts is still the great plywood central. We only see certain areas and not the complete layout on our "guided" pictorial tour and I wonder how many of those photos went through photo shop for editing.
Very few. For 99.99% of the photos we publish, the only Photoshop work we do is sharpening, adjusting color, and rarely rotating to straighten the horizon. In the 8 years I've been working here, I only remember four examples of actually altering an image, and in each case, it was an otherwise perfect photo with only one glaring flaw. One involved removing cobwebs from the front of a locomotive, one was straightening up a wobbly figure in the foreground, the third was putting a steamer's lead truck back on the rails, and the fourth was straightening a diesel handrail that the photographer didn't notice had popped loose. That's the extent of Photoshopping that's ever done to our photos. We get enough good photo submissions that if a photo has more problems than that, we don't have to use it. So when you see a spectacular photo in our magazine, you know the layout is actually that spectacular.
BRAKIE jecorbett jmbjmb I feel you. I know what I want to do. But I also know it's not right. And I keep rethinking trying to make it right, yet knowing it never can be, at least in the space and funding reality we live in. In many ways I wish the hobby could take a step backward to a less perfect world. jim It can. For me it can and does. I use same old fashion spike method to lay track like I did when I built my first ISL back in '62 and like in '62 I go for believability not perfection.. I'm not above switching BB and Roundhouse cars with a BB SW7, GP7 or GP35. While I have better detailed cars and locomotives I still (Oh the humanity! For shame of it all! ) enjoy the older models. Maybe its because it reminds me of the shinning times when life was good and simpler. OTOH I no longer wear a watch nor am I a slave to the time clock and may not even know the day or date without looking--maybe this is the shinning time?
jecorbett jmbjmb I feel you. I know what I want to do. But I also know it's not right. And I keep rethinking trying to make it right, yet knowing it never can be, at least in the space and funding reality we live in. In many ways I wish the hobby could take a step backward to a less perfect world. jim It can.
jmbjmb I feel you. I know what I want to do. But I also know it's not right. And I keep rethinking trying to make it right, yet knowing it never can be, at least in the space and funding reality we live in. In many ways I wish the hobby could take a step backward to a less perfect world. jim
I feel you. I know what I want to do. But I also know it's not right. And I keep rethinking trying to make it right, yet knowing it never can be, at least in the space and funding reality we live in. In many ways I wish the hobby could take a step backward to a less perfect world.
jim
It can.
For me it can and does. I use same old fashion spike method to lay track like I did when I built my first ISL back in '62 and like in '62 I go for believability not perfection..
I'm not above switching BB and Roundhouse cars with a BB SW7, GP7 or GP35. While I have better detailed cars and locomotives I still (Oh the humanity! For shame of it all! ) enjoy the older models. Maybe its because it reminds me of the shinning times when life was good and simpler. OTOH I no longer wear a watch nor am I a slave to the time clock and may not even know the day or date without looking--maybe this is the shinning time?
My railroad is now a freelanced eastern railroad but I still hang on to all my old big UP steam from my last layout. Two Northerns, two Challengers, and a Big Boy, all from Rivarossi. My current layout is DCC and the steamers I have accumulated are all better detailed and most have sound but I still have a fondness for that UP steam so they sit on the shelf. I've thought about retrofitting them with decoders but they also have the oversized flanges that don't run well on code 83 track.
If it helps, theres a big difference between accuracy, and believability. On my layout, I decided that the scenic and industrial elements may not be accurate; it didn't exist that way in the SPECIFIC locale where I set for my layout. But most or all of it COULD have. Most if not all of it did exist somewhere in the GENERAL area, and really not too far away.
So I said to myself, lighten up, get to it, build what you want to see, just keep it believable enough to satisfy your eye. Building some small portions that are accurate to a specific prototype you like can help here. Works for me, and got me past previously mentioned paralysis. Dan
jk10 things will get better, back in the 80's when my wife of 32 years and I were married we had not a whole lot other than a second hand car , a motorcycle and a very small house, now we are much better off although I'm not so sure I will ever be able to retire.
Larry I agree, I've often wondered if those MR issues with the award winning layouts were photo shopped to perfection. I keep hearing about operations and although I can't say I've ever tried switching cars in and out of industry's , it does interest me and have always tried to develop the layout so that it could be done. I am a Lone Wolf modeler and have never had anyone run trains with me other than my son who now shows no interest in it, although he did show a great amount of disappointment when I disassembled the layout. The one benefit to being a Lone Wolf modeler is I can design the layout in a couple different ways , the ideal way would be to be able to run a train on the main line and still be able to switch out some cars at the same time and the other way would be to design it to do one or the other, the latter would allow for more room for other things because you wouldn't have to be concerned with using extra realestate for spurs coming directly off the mainline rather than a spur coming off a seperate track off the mainline. Sorry if my Rail langauge.
Thanks JaBear
Sheldon very good points and all well taken. I might add that when we start off with a 4x8 sheet of plywood layout with DC Atlas turnout throws and advance to an addition onto that 4x8, tear down and move onto the next style and eventually end up with an around the wall, there is so much to learn and enjoy. Through my years I was like a magnet to the hobby always wanting to try different techniques whether there old timer techniques on scenery or the newest way to add color and tecture to strip wood I always ate it up.
I might add I was never ever unhappy with my layout and was not the reason I took it down.
Tom its funny you say this with taking the layout apart and reassembling it, the old timers down at the RR club here moved there ginormous layout from one rental property down to another and I had taken note that any turnout was in the middle of the table and the entire thing was very module. My second or was it third layout was like that and it helped a great deal but when I took a turn to a not flat layout using a grid style and track risers everything seemed to change. When I disassembled I did keep all my pine for the grid benchwork, mostly because well just because, but all my scenery and very large diorammas and structures were either given away or thown out although I did keep some of the finer detail structures only because in the back of my mind I had thought if and when I build another layout it would have a lot less large structures to give more room to other nice scenes.
Lynn
Present Layout progress
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/p/290127/3372174.aspx#3372174
I have to say, there's a little bit (or a lot of, depending on the poster here) of each of you in me regarding this hobby. I can tell you that in my endeavors since I re-entered this hobby in 1993, all of my layout attempts were far from done (FFD). My first attempt at it was all tracked, wired and ready for scenery when, in 1998 I moved. In about 2001 I had a completely dedicated train room but no money to build a layout. I still worked on some small projects, like building a highly detailed caboose. Then, another move, in 2005, took me back to school for basically an academic year to get some needed college credits. I had no time (nor money) to build a layout. Then, in the winter of 2006 I took a job and moved to where I am now. For 10 years I lived in a 2 bedroom apartment. The second bedroom served as my office, which shared space with my U-shaped switching layout. It too was all tracked, wired (including a very nice control panel, which I spent countless hours building and soldering all the switch and LED contacts), and ready to scenic. I just moved about 2 months ago, into a small 3 bedroom house. I now have seperate rooms for bedroom, office and train room. When I built the layout in my apartment, I built it in four bolt-together sections, so I was able to move the layout with track in tact.
Presently, my layout sits in my train room, still in pieces. I do plan on reassembling it in it's original configuration, as I want to be able to actually have the joy of not only scenicing it, but actually operating it. then, maybe one day I will do something different. As previously mentioned in this thread "It's not the destination, but the journey", i. e. have fun!
ATLANTIC CENTRALPlanning saves lots of time and money......
Indeed it does even on those 1x10 or 1x12 footer ISL I build. I plan as I go and I will lay the track in place,grab a cup of coffee and envision a op session and if I not happy I will make the needed changes and envision a op session. Once I am satisfied then I will spike the track in place.
The place and change planing may take 2-3 days but,the actual track laying around 4 hours on a good afternoon-to me a good afternoon means no phone calls,friends or family dropping by..
I had to think on this one a bit, here are a few thoughts:
The enemy of good is better.........
Planning saves lots of time and money......
It is the journey, not the destination.......
That said, I have never in 45 years given up on the hobby or taken down a layout just because I was unhappy with it.
In fact, I decided a few years back that all future layout work would be modules able to be moved so work is not lost.
Sheldon
wickman....I will get enjoyment from building the new layout...
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
wickman jmbjmb I feel you. I know what I want to do. But I also know it's not right. And I keep rethinking trying to make it right, yet knowing it never can be, at least in the space and funding reality we live in. In many ways I wish the hobby could take a step backward to a less perfect world. jim Jim I think we can sometimes get caught up into the trying to please everyone else mode and throws limits at us. Just do what feels right.
Jim I think we can sometimes get caught up into the trying to please everyone else mode and throws limits at us. Just do what feels right.
I fully agree with that 100%. Another bum trip is looking at those super layouts in the pages of MR and other like magazines. I've often wondered how much of those layouts is still the great plywood central. We only see certain areas and not the complete layout on our "guided" pictorial tour and I wonder how many of those photos went through photo shop for editing..Years ago we saw photos of those layouts as they looked to the camera's eye-with some dark room editing for size and clarity..
A family friend got me hooked on trains when I was in high school. The guy's mom was my babysitter, and I was in high school with his son. Through my babysitter, our families always stayed in contact. When I saw his layout, I was hooked. I started to buy everything I could on a high schooler's salary, went to shows, and subscribed to the magazine. When college rolled around, I stopped buying things. On occassion, I would buy a freight car or magazine here or there, but it was much less frequent. I had a college apartment right next to the CP mainline running along the Mississippi River, with my bedroom looking at the tracks. Several hours were spent watching the train and dreaming of some sort of layout. After college, the interest was there, but came and went as other hobbies and a lack of space limited what I could do. Now that my wife (1 month anniversary today) and I have a house, I am actively planning a small 2' x 8' or similar switching layout. Enough to keep me occupied and involved in the hobby. I'm planning to go to my first operating session this coming weekend. My wife thinks I'm crazy, mainly because of the space situation, but I'm trying to stay as committed as I can to building something over the next few months. Other hobbies; sports cards, WWII postcards, and others are still of interest, but I've pretty much jumped full ship into the trains. It combines history and an enjoyable hobby. It'll keep me out of trouble as I tell my wife.
Larry and jecorbett I agree , I'm going to try to cut back on trying for perfection this time around and rework my expectations and try to relax.
I've never reached that point with this hobby but what you describe is a lot like my love/hate relation with golf. The past two years has been a lot more hate than love and I had just about reached the end of my rope about a month ago. I walked off the golf course in the middle of a round and vowed never to return. Then my brother suggested a I give a new swing technique a try. Without boring everyone with the details it is called the square-to-square method which has been around for a long time but it was new to me. There are lots of YouTube videos available for free and I went on line to learn the basics. I picked up on it right way and it completely turned my game around. It's as if the golf gods know when you've reached the limit and it's their way of drawing you back in.
Golf is my warm weather hobby and MR is my cold weather hobby. I'm rarely doing both during the same months. With this hobby I am much less judgemental of my work. I'm a firm believer in the "good enough" approach and am more than willing to accept less than perfect modeling from myself. Maybe because in this hobby, we don't keep score.
I've been in the hobby as long as I care to remember and I decided long ago a operating layout beats building and rebuilding and rebuilding yet again. Besides my love for switching I wanted a simple layout that can be built in days instead of years so,my choice is a Industrial Switching Layout or ISL for short. A good Saturday afternoon and I can be switching cars in four hours and I can always spend time detailing the layout as I choose.
Of course most of my layouts have been 1 x12 or 1 x10 footers..
Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me guys.
Randy I don't have a pool for summer but my mind is always going back to rearranging track and getting the most out of the area.
JaBear yes I will get enjoyment from building the new layout and with less structures to begin with and only a dozen or so nice quality kits to build I'm thinking the less is more statement may be a good thing.
Richard I feel your pain, when I first thought to myself that I needed to get back in the hobby I actually thought o could do something in a 10 x 9 space and after having a large area layout I quickly realized it wasn't going to work and I myself wouldn't be happy.
Dave although I hear you about fixing an issue that you know will continue to bother you , I personally would just dive in one day and do it. I think I'm a perfect example of just diving in and doing it , although for me I had/have regrets for my actions, where as for you your just rearranging and if you find it was a wrong decision you can always reverse the action. And a little tip, our layouts are never really done, enjoy it.
The striving for perfection -- and perfect, total information in particular - can be stressful and even paralyzing. I have been at a standstill on a major portion of my layout because a large industry (the major industry on my layout and a reason for its existing) that I know was, and thus really should be, on the east side of the tracks is unworkable and impractical unless I put it on the west side. I know this. I simply cannot bring myself to do it, because it's wrong, because it would change the work of the local switcher which is just about the only interesting operation on my layout, so I sit and hope to think up ways to "make it work."
In every other area of modeling I have learned to compromise and say "enough" or "this is just the way it has to be." I mean, I regard myself as a prototype modeler but I happily run Athearn blue box and even lesser cars together with the rest, and it does not bother me in the slightest. Not here, not this issue. I don't feel sad about this but time is running out to get this darn thing done. A non-modeler buddy keeps telling me "you'll be dead before you finish this thing." I fear he is right.
Dave Nelson
Got my first used, Lionel layout (came with a 4'x7' table) at an age young enough so I don't remember getting it. Had it set up off and on through elementary school. When mother remarried I got a good sized room in an old chicken house. Expanded, but never got into real scenery making. College and Uncle Sam had it in boxes until my kids came along. Got it out for grandsons, lost much in a fire. Switched to HO, but too busy to build, just added to inventory. Finally made a 4'x6' that was suppose to be able to travel, one side is "finished", the other still foam. Lost prised layout space, new space 1/3 of planned layout. Currently stalled not wanting to take the 4'x6' down to put a shelf around the new room. Yes, fluctuations in activity are commonplace.
Good luck,
Richard
wickman It seemed the more I worked on my layout the more I was getting stressed out about it,.......
I've been "playing with trains" for nearly 48 years, since I was a shade over 2 years old (there's an old silent 8mm home movie for evidence). I've had some time out - the last layout I built as a kid was when I was in 7th grade, and it wasn't long after I got more heavily into electronics, including buying and addembling my first computer kit. The layout languished, barely touched, until high school when I went the next step and actually leaned it up against the wall to free the floor space. College followed and then the real world, with no room for any sort of layout but I did resubscribe to magazines and start reading again. Finally had an apartment with enough spare space for a small L shaped switching layout, plus I joined a local club. I have had a few times since then that I haven't had a layout, such as now, but I've pretty much always beein doing something hobby related since then. I've been back and forth with electronics, but the projects I am working on are directly related to the layout I am planning for my basement.
I may not do a whole lot of direct work during the Summer, but it is prime planning time. On a nice day I will jump in my pool and float around and think of better ways to get the track I want in the space I have. It's very relaxing and I've hit on more than a few different ways to go about something.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I have always cycled between model RR, and model trucks and such in 1/25. When I lose interest in one, the other is there. This can last years. I took about 7 years off from model RRing last time. (I'd run the trains occasionally, keep the layout clean) But each time I re-enter either, it's with renewed energy. I NEVER get rid of WIP stuff from either hobby. I keep all finished models from both, too.
I also more or less take the summer off from hobby activities, but when weather gets bad, like about now, they are my haven. It helps that the hobby-train room is a separate structure, I can just shut the door.
So last winter I had what may have been a seniors moment and paid dearly for it. It seemed the more I worked on my layout the more I was getting stressed out about it, not the way it was going or the overwhelming effect of what next question but more of I was striving for perfection. The more I did the better I wanted the end results. Back when I got the bug for this hobby, I think it was 2003, I know the year only because this was the first forum I had found and had recieved my basic planning and tutelage from and I see I joined in 2003. After many layouts and always trying new techniques I came across I had found that the more I learned the more I pushed myself to do better, whether it was scenery, trackwork, backdrops etc I was always pushing for better and this went the same for what I tried to incorporate into a layout, I know this because with each new layout I found elements of previous layouts. I found with the last layout with the second room expansion I was second guessing myself as to I wanted to continue in the hobby and one day I simply removed structures , some I gave away some I simply discarded but I inevitably took down the layout and turned the main room into a storage bin with new paint and carpet. The summer went by and although I had a new motorcycle and was enjoying being in the wind, I always found myself checking out the old structures and RR tracks as I was out and about. I don't know what it is but it seems once you have this great hobby in your blood , the desire is always there. So I start over from scratch mulling over the perfect blue for that backdrop.
is it just me or has anyone else had this experience? Ya I know I'm just weird.