Nice! Your way of thinking sounds a lot like mine. I always have this idea in my mind of what the "epitome" of a 1940s-1950s railroad would be, and I'm trying to carry it out in model form. I like big, modern steam and having a class of beefy 4-8-4s (or 2-8-4s if I have to) is a must for me. Freelancing is great. It can be difficult to try and replicate the exact locomotives we have in mind, but if we can ever pull it off it will be worth it.
Dakota
So back in high school I read a book by James McCague called Fiddle Hill and fell in love with it. The book talks about the fictional Pacific Midland Railroad and its last steam-operated division in the Colorado Rockies. I really like the name (unique enough, and throws a nod to Tony Koester's old layout which I'm a big fan of) so I stuck with that.
There isn't a whole lot of detail about the Midland in the book other than it being a major transcontinental player in the San Francisco-Chicago market. The book talks about it crossing the Rockies but I love the scenery of the Sierra Nevada so I think that's where the eventual layout is gonna be set - I also really like Hollister Noble's One Way to Eldorado (which is set in the Sierras) so the layout concept might be based more off of that, but "Pacific Midland" sounds cooler to me than Noble's "Great Western."
The road's main steam power is supposed to be Northerns and Challengers - it strikes me as similar to the UP since the 4-8-4s are described as having "Elephant Ear" smoke deflectors. I'd be okay with basically redecorating FEFs but I'd like to do something a little different. The one perk to being stuck in an apartment with no room to work on the layout is that I can devote all my time to working on the equipment roster!
I think I may swap the Challengers out for Yellowstones, depends on what I can find for equipment when I actually get around to those. I'm just trying to identify some key features I can use to make the engines stand out - I'm thinking everything's gonna get All-Weather Cabs and Centipede Tenders. I like Elesco Feedwater Heaters (and they look distinctive) but that seems a bit outdated for big, modern steam power. I'm trying to stick to Bill Darnaby's principle about having one or two "main" types of engines to keep the roster looking distinctive. I'm thinking the rest of the roster's primarily going to be diesels (specifically PAs - I have a couple doodles of a set kind of like Burlington's E5s to pull the crack Silver Arrow flyer) to compliment the big 4-8-4s and articulateds, though I have a soft spot for Berkshires so I may have one or two "transfers" off another division of the railroad, plus maybe a few big Compounds in helper service... Haven't really made up my mind yet, though this is why I love freelancing!
I bet it would probably work, it would definitely be a good project for those who like to kitbash and detail. If I came across one cheap, I'd be willing to give it a go.
What's the story on your railroad?
JoeFerrito Y'know funnily enough I've been trying to solve a similar problem for my freelance road! I like the look of the Bowser, I just have no idea where to find any of 'em - have you seen any of the kits floating around?
Y'know funnily enough I've been trying to solve a similar problem for my freelance road!
I like the look of the Bowser, I just have no idea where to find any of 'em - have you seen any of the kits floating around?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bowser-Train-LOCOMOTIVE-NORTHERN-100475-W-BOX-PAPERWORK-/201703582376?hash=item2ef6786aa8:g:C6cAAOSwcUBYFiU9
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NIB-HO-Northern-4-8-4-Steamer-Tender-500475-Ready-To-Run-VERY-NICE-/201702169215?hash=item2ef662da7f:g:yb8AAOSwal5YE-LW
Right now what I'm thinking of using for kitbash donors are the Bachmann "FEF" models - sure as hell not an FEF, looks more like their Niagara with some changed details. Think if I changed the cab, domes and the smokebox door (as well as the tenders) I could make something that looked pretty distinctive. That said I'd assume I'd have to remotor since it's a Bachmann that isn't a Spectrum, but I'd be willing to do that.
My other thought was bashing an actual Athearn FEF but I don't know if I could make the thing look distinctive enough, and I'm already worried about the Midland looking like a UP clone...
Wow, there's some outstanding info on here! Thanks, guys.
I really like the idea of using 4-8-4s and 2-8-4s, like the RF&P did. Having both with the same family appearance might be the best of both worlds.
As for the camelback converted from the Thomas series model....wow. That's some truly inspiring work. I can only imagine the patients it took to make something that nice from something so basic.
The Milwaukee Road's Northerns were mentioned. I looked them up and found this towards the bottom of the page under the S3 section:
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/northern/?page=cmstpp
If this be true, this is a great example of an actual prototype that was "kitbashed." I guess there really is a prototype for everything haha.
Dakota,
The Bowser 4-8-4 is a good choice. Very generic looks, great pulling ability, easily modified and they show up on feebay frequently. They are obviously kits but with basic skills, tools and patience they can be assembled by most folks.
Another option would be a brass import. The large layout of the Renssalear Poly guys (NEB&W) chose an NKP DL&W 4-8-4 and made several minor mods to create their own "brand" on the engine. MR had an article on this many years ago. Something like that is a real possibility and these are some of the brass 4-8-4s that are readily available at reasonable prices.
Converting some engines like the N&W J, SP GS-4, RDG T-1, GN S-1/S-2 and a NYC Niagara might be difficult to hide their heritage but others have great possibilities. I think the DL&W, SP GS-1 & GS-8 offer a good choice and are usually available at decent prices.
Converting some 4-8-2s to a Northern offers more options. The USRA Mountain is an easy mod. The B&M R-1d by GEM or AHM is a very heavy engine to convert.
A lot of these engines will change their entire "look" with just a tender change. Spare tenders pop up on feebay on a regular basis too.
With all the many parts castings by Cal-Scale, Cary, PSC, PIA and Eric's the sky is the limit on a conversion.
Roger Huber
Deer Creek Locomotive Works
DDavidsonFarms Thanks for the replies, friends. I will be modeling 1945-1950, so using a an already-built prototype with slight detail changes may be an easy way to go, as stated above. As for using 4-8-2s instead, it would be a very plausible choice...premier passenger trains on my freelanced road will have been dieselized with E6s by this time, with small 4-6-2s and Doodlebugs handling branch line service.
Thanks for the replies, friends. I will be modeling 1945-1950, so using a an already-built prototype with slight detail changes may be an easy way to go, as stated above. As for using 4-8-2s instead, it would be a very plausible choice...premier passenger trains on my freelanced road will have been dieselized with E6s by this time, with small 4-6-2s and Doodlebugs handling branch line service.
1945-50 was an interesting time for railroads. Because production was so limited during WW2, there were long waiting list for diesels and streamlined cars. Great Northern for example bought E-7s in 1945 for the Empire Builder, but couldn't get new streamlined cars until 1947, so for a year and a half or so ran a heavyweight train with E units. New York Central received it's 4-8-4 Niagaras in 1945 after receiving their first E-7s. Up until 1950 or so, it wasn't uncommon to see a top-of-the-line streamlined train being pulled by a steam engine pinch-hitting for diesels, or for a streamlined train to contain some heavyweight cars.
DDavidsonFarms A couple of 4-8-4s were on my list...mainly because they're my favorite arrangement...and I wanted to represent dual purpose steam locomotives built during WWII for the railroad. These would be the last steamers built for the line.
A couple of 4-8-4s were on my list...mainly because they're my favorite arrangement...and I wanted to represent dual purpose steam locomotives built during WWII for the railroad. These would be the last steamers built for the line.
Any engines built during WW2 had to be built to an existing design, so either your WW2 era Northerns would have to have be copies of engines your railroad built before the war, or would have be copies of another railroad's engines - like I mentioned in my example of Milwaukee Road buying copies of Rock Island 4-8-4 engines. (So you could look at buying unlettered versions of BLI's Milwaukee 261 and lettering it for your road, perhaps with a few detail modifications.)
I feel that changing a locomotives appearance is tied to imagination and how far you want to go. I have taught myself that really anything is possible. This is the more extreme end of kitbashing but the most out there project I thinik I did was making a Reading L-7 camelback from a Thomas and friends Gordon. The only real reason for using the base was proper driver size which is hard to come by in other models, plus it had a conveniently placed motor in the middle of the drivers.
But the trade off is a extensive build looking like this before paint.
Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/60361449@N02/
Anthracite Modeler - YouTube
You might consider the roster of the Richmond Fredericksburg & Potomac, which was one of the few roads that never owned a Mikado or a Consolidation. The road handled fast passenger and freight trains between Washington DC and Richmond, VA, serving as a link between the PRR and B&O on the North, and the ACL and Seaboard to the South. Fast feight and passenger trains were handled by big Pacifics and a few 4-8-2's, until the road began buying an impressive fleet of 4-8-4's. During WWII they needed more engines, but the War Production Board refused to let them buy what they wanted. Instead, they got a small number of Van Sweringen Berkshires from Lima because that's all the WPB would allow.
Adapting this scenario to Central Texas, I think I would deviate from RF&P practice and say your road used USRA Mikados as general utility engines in the 1920's, with Pacifics for passenger service. I would create a history that says your road bought a few dual service 4-8-2's in the 1920's, based on the Heavy USRA. Pleased with the 4-8-2's, your road then progressed to the 4-8-4 (such as the suggested Bowser engine) as its dominant heavy duty dual service engine. In WWII, your road wanted more 4-8-4's, but had to accept a small number of Van Sweringen (NKP or Pere Marquette version) Berkshires. Diesel switchers began arriving in the late 1930's and throughout the 1940's, so that all small steam switchers were gone by 1950, leaving only a couple modern heavy 0-8-0's (modified USRA). The USRA light Mikes were still there, handling the locals and work trains. Passsenger diesels began to arrive in the 1940's, pushing the 4-8-2's and 4-8-4's into strictly freight service; the 4-6-2's were restricted to secondary passenger runs.
Of course all these steam engines must be oil burners, in keeping with the Texas location.
Tom
John and Dakota, thank you both for your kind comments.
Wayne
I guess I could have the best of both worlds with the Berkshires and Northerns haha.
Love your modeling, Doctor Wayne. As a matter of fact, pictures of your locomotives are what inspired me to maybe try my hand at kitbashing to get what I want. That Berkshire with the swapped sand dome is exactly what I was looking to do if I went with 2-8-4s. The Northern is a good example of disguising one's appearance with minor details. Can't really tell it's a Santa Fe locomotive anymore.....just looks like a beefy, modern 4-8-4 built for a road in the northern U.S.
Really nice modeling there!
As a former Bowser employee (last worked for them 24 years ago prior to a job in my chosen profession) I would just like to point out that they still own Cal-Scale. Due to the name recognition of the Cal-Scale parts, they never wanted to change the name. They actually cast a lot of the parts once used by the brass import manufacturers overseas and once upon a time shipped them over to them. Exactly how many parts I never learned, but missing parts on some of the imports can be replaced by new Cal-Scale castings, if you know enough about the prototype to know what you need.
Bowser as we know it today is actually comprised of I believe more than 20 formerly separate distinct companies, way beyond just Stewart.
Selley is also one of them. The Selley Finishing Touches line includes the pewter (lead alloy) castings, including but not limited to animals and people, etc.
Unfortunately they were never able to bring the Arbor Models line of steamers back from the dead. The tooling was in far worse shape than Lee was led to believe and the market for those kits was rapidly shrinking, so he just never got around to it. They were clearing out the last of the Arbor Models parts recently and had a box of miscellaneous Berkshire parts including whole boilers available for sale. I don't know if it's still at the Bowser retail store or if it was already scarfed up.
John
Here's a Bachmann Berkshire which I did for a friend. Other than the paint, the only change was to remove the original large sandbox and replace it with a different large sandbox (a dome from a long Tyco tank car):
This is Bachmann's Santa Fe Northern...
I modified the front end with a Cal-Scale pilot, radiator, headlight and Mars light, along with a new bell. The vestibule cab is sheet styrene, cemented to the original cab after removing all rivets and raised details. After the new sides were in place, I used my X-Acto to carefully carve-away any of the old cab which could be seen through the new cab's windows.The tender is the original 8-axle oil tender, shortened somewhat and with the oil bunker replaced by an open coal bunker. I cut-off some of the lower portion of the tender's body, then replaced it with the top off a Tyco 54' ACF covered hopper. The centipede frame was traced from a photo and then cut out of sheet styrene. The two 4-axle trucks were cut apart and then cemented back together to form the 5-axle centipede bed, to which the lastic sideframes were cemented. The tender's front truck is from an Athearn streamlined pasenger car:
This is Bowser's NYC K-11 Pacific, somewhat modified with Cal-Scale detail parts and some sheet metal (styrene) fairing. The vestibule cab was constructed over the cast Bowser cab, much the same as on the Northern. The tender is from Tyco, somewhat modified. Bowser kits are fairly easy to build if you take your time. I re-powered this one with a can motor and a NWSL gearbox:
Because the Bowser Northern is a generic version, you can customise it to whatever extent you wish. Bowser owns Cal-Scale, and has loads of detail parts available. If you need something which they don't have, PSC probably has it.
DDavidsonFarms Hi Sheldon. I'll be modeling Central Texas, the "Hill Country" as we call it. You may remember my post a while back on choosing steam power, I believe you helped out on it. I had originally chosen 1953 as me era, but decided to backdate to 1945-1950 as I've found that most of the Texas lines seemed to have dieselized fairly early on. I think I stated I was going with 2-8-4s for my final WWII era steam, but I just can't help but want Northerns. Were I smart, I'd probably choose the Berkshires and use Bachmann's NKP version with a few detail change, since there were several roads that used that same design....but I always seem to take the complicated route. The T1 would probably be a good alternative. It's a fine looking Northern, and I feel as though I'd be more comfortable with it than I would most other that are being produced now. It does have that "generic" look.
Hi Sheldon. I'll be modeling Central Texas, the "Hill Country" as we call it. You may remember my post a while back on choosing steam power, I believe you helped out on it. I had originally chosen 1953 as me era, but decided to backdate to 1945-1950 as I've found that most of the Texas lines seemed to have dieselized fairly early on. I think I stated I was going with 2-8-4s for my final WWII era steam, but I just can't help but want Northerns. Were I smart, I'd probably choose the Berkshires and use Bachmann's NKP version with a few detail change, since there were several roads that used that same design....but I always seem to take the complicated route.
The T1 would probably be a good alternative. It's a fine looking Northern, and I feel as though I'd be more comfortable with it than I would most other that are being produced now. It does have that "generic" look.
Yes, I remember your other thread. The T-1 also has a number of basic features in common with the LIMA Berkshire, like deck mounted front air pumps, similar tender design, etc. I converted my Berks to Mikes, but they look right at home with the T-1's on my layout, so some of each might be just the ticket....
Sheldon
DDavidsonFarms Thanks for the replies, friends. I will be modeling 1945-1950, so using a an already-built prototype with slight detail changes may be an easy way to go, as stated above. As for using 4-8-2s instead, it would be a very plausible choice...premier passenger trains on my freelanced road will have been dieselized with E6s by this time, with small 4-6-2s and Doodlebugs handling branch line service. A couple of 4-8-4s were on my list...mainly because they're my favorite arrangement...and I wanted to represent dual purpose steam locomotives built during WWII for the railroad. These would be the last steamers built for the line. And that Bowser kit looks great! I would be very satisfied with results like that for my railroad's Northerns. I will definitely hold onto the idea of getting one or two of these kits.
Thanks for the replies, friends. I will be modeling 1945-1950, so using a an already-built prototype with slight detail changes may be an easy way to go, as stated above. As for using 4-8-2s instead, it would be a very plausible choice...premier passenger trains on my freelanced road will have been dieselized with E6s by this time, with small 4-6-2s and Doodlebugs handling branch line service. A couple of 4-8-4s were on my list...mainly because they're my favorite arrangement...and I wanted to represent dual purpose steam locomotives built during WWII for the railroad. These would be the last steamers built for the line.
And that Bowser kit looks great! I would be very satisfied with results like that for my railroad's Northerns. I will definitely hold onto the idea of getting one or two of these kits.
Dakota, you don't say what part of the country you are modeling, but for a Northern with a more "generic" look, how about the Reading T-1?
I have two of them on my freelanced ATLANTIC CENTRAL, and Broadway Limited makes a nice model of them.
Used/NOS versions can be found on Ebay, and back in the beginning, under the PCM name, they sold a DC version which you might find at a bargain price.
http://www.broadway-limited.com/paragon2readingt14-8-4.aspx
Hi there. I purchased a used Bowser 4-8-4 a few years ago to have one for my little CN fleet. It's far from being prototypical, but I did change the pilot, bell, ad some pipes, etc. I also changed the motor and added DCC sound. It runs very well. I worked on other plastic engines, including a Bachmann 2-10-4 which I believe is comparable to the 4-8-4 SF you are referring to. The Bachmann runs well, but only after adding some weight (there was lots of room in the boiler, for some strange reason). So both options could work, I guess. I definitely prefer a metal boiler with brass details, so I would definitely go to Bowser if I were to do this again.
Simon
The Bowser 4-8-4 was itself a "generic" locomotive (it did not have a Belpaire firebox and PRR did not have a class R steam locomotive anyway). From various angles, and based on the tender chosen, it looked like prototypes from any number of railroads, including the Soo Line's Northern. In fact if you are looking for a prototype to follow for a "generic" 4-8-4 you can hardly do better than the Soo Line engine.
Another possibility would be the nicely detailed IHC plastic 4-8-2 which also was generic and which somewhat resembled the locomotives of various prototypes. I have not attempted it but it might be possible to squeeze a four wheel trailing truck under the firebox of that engine.
Dave Nelson
Bowser kits build up into a good running, heavy, good pulling model. They are not shake-the-box kits, but not all that difficult to put together. The basic models are a bit plain, but Bowser used to sell a superdetail kit of cast brass detail parts that would give you a nicely detailed model. Most, maybe all, of the detail parts are still on the market from places like Cal-Scale. If I was to find a complete Bowser kit I'd buy it just on general principles. Most Bowser steamers are PRR prototype, with the distinctive Belpaire boiler, which really marks a steamer as Pennsy. Since you said you are freelancing, you can say your freelanced road is into Belpaire boilers like the Pennsy was.
The Bachmann and other plastic steamers run nicely. Most of them are too light to pull much, and the innards are so stuffed with motor and drive gears that there is little room to add lead weight. Changing steam domes and headlights isn't hard. Here is an old AHM Berkshire, the Pere Marquette one, repainted for the B&M.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
I think I still have an unfinished Bowser steam engine kit around somewhere, started on it around 1990 and never got it finished. Their kits aren't all that easy.
If your layout is set in WW2 or later, you could get by with a 'real' engine. During WW2 to government limited locomotive production to proven designs. That's why Milwaukee Road 261, a 4-8-4 built in 1944, is basically a copy of Rock Island 4-8-4s from a few years earlier.
Otherwise, unless your railroad really needs super power to pull 12-14 car trains, you might be best to go with Bachmann's USRA light or heavy 4-8-2 mountains. Copies of USRA engines were built into the early 1950's, so they're a great boon for free-lancers.
I've really wanted a 4-8-4 for my in-the-works freelanced layout for a while. The problem is, it's too hard to find a RTR model that's not a dead giveaway for another prototype (N&W J, SP GS-4, ATSF 2900, etc). I've looked at some of the Bowser Northern kits, and they seem to be a good place to start. I realize they are no longer in production, but I believe I could find a couple without too much trouble. Are these kits good quality and something that would go towards making a good model?
Another thought I've had is maybe doing some kitbashing with one of Bachmann's 4-8-4s, maybe either the Niagara/Overland model or find a couple of the discontinued Santa Fe Northerns. Perhaps the Niagara, for instance, could have the smoke lifters removed, the headlight lowered to the center of the smokebox, dome changed, etc. to disguise much of the NYC look. Same principles for the Santa Fe 4-8-4s.
Which would you guys recommend?