Hey there,
I'm looking to assemble a sorta scratch built Wolrd War II train. I wanna put together a bunch of flat cars and load them with sherman tanks, fresh off the line and ready for the front. Anyways I was wondering has anyone done something similar to this and what scale were you using for the tank. I'm currently looking at 1/87 scale for the sherman tanks I want to buy. Will that be too small or too big?
Also does anyone know where i can get some details like chains holding the tanks down, or maybe scale canvas sheets I can place over the tanks.
If you haven't seen this Atlas Rescue Forum Thread it may be of interest.From the images I've seen on line, usually one M4 tank per flatcar (they weighed upwards of 30 tons, and IIRC later models like the Easy 8s were heavier, so if the flatcar had a 50t load limit...).In HO scale, chain is available from A-line and other sources; likely you would make the blocking from stripwood. Apparently chain rachets are available as well, like this set of "binders".
There is a company that makes a huge range of scale military equipment of all kinds. I think it is roco. Can not.recall. there is also a book called railroads go to war. If you havent already, might be worth a look.
A pessimist sees a dark tunnel
An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel
A realist sees a frieght train
An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space
dbwc6f Hey there, I'm looking to assemble a sorta scratch built Wolrd War II train. I wanna put together a bunch of flat cars and load them with sherman tanks, fresh off the line and ready for the front. Anyways I was wondering has anyone done something similar to this and what scale were you using for the tank. I'm currently looking at 1/87 scale for the sherman tanks I want to buy. Will that be too small or too big? Also does anyone know where i can get some details like chains holding the tanks down, or maybe scale canvas sheets I can place over the tanks.
You want to try to obtain Volume 20 of the Railway Prototype Cyclopedia which has a major article on Flat Car Loading Practices, including military loads, showing the practical application of AAR rules. One portion of that article has drawings, text (right down to the size of lumber used) and photos showing how military vehicles including tanks are braced and chained on flatcars. One photo specifically shows an M4 Sherman Tank on a US military flatcar (not unlike a flatcar model that Roco offered in this country some years back). The tank is explosed not covered with canvas. Indeed the only military loads that were tarped (although some trucks had wood over the glass windows) look like portable generators on wheels so the purpose of the tarp was to protect the load not to hide the load from prying eyes. What was done during WWII I do not know for sure. The picture in quetion is dated 1950s.
Unfortunately that issue of the Railway Prototype Cyclopedia (in common with most back issues of that invaluable publication) has become something of a collector's item and brings premium prices if you can even find it. I should have bought two copies when it was new - one to preserve and one to lend out to friends, because as it is, I do not lend it out.
By the way this is apropos of nothing perhaps but when I toured the Caterpillar factory in Peoria IL years ago, the factory floors have steel ribs embedded in the floor. This protects the floor from being utterly chewed up when vehicles with steel caterpillar treads are driven to the loading docks. I imagine the wood or concrete loading docks you see at military installations (such as Fort McCoy in Wisconsin, which is often open on Armed Forces Day for tours) get plenty chewed up by tanks and similar tracked type vehicles.
Dave Nelson
There was a good article in the June 2005 MR about blocking and securing equipment loads including tanks. You can contact Kalmbach customer service to get a reprint.
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
During WWII. tanks came to the Ford plant ("Tank depot") in Richmond, Ca. from various mfg. plants throughout the U.S. for final fitting out before being shipped to the theaters of war.
Roco does make an HO scale Sherman tank. Artitec makes two versions of the Sherman, though for some reason they refer to them as A4 Sherman tanks.
Attached photos Richmond Tank Depot during WWII
BTW, the crane bay in the second photo has been refurbished and is now an entertainment pavilion that has hosted the The Great Train Show the past few years in January.
Regards, Peter
An E-bay link to Sherman Tanks:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=1+87+sherman+tank&clk_rvr_id=1105367202084&poi=&adpos=1t1&geo_id=10232&MT_ID=69&crlp=140819003896_1607&keyword=1+87+sherman+tank&rlsatarget=kwd-28140378483
Take Care!
Frank
The prototype for the old Roco military flat (the one with 6-wheel trucks) was first built in 1953. So it was not available for WWII.
There's lotsa Youtube videos and the like that will inspire you. The flats were not government owned, but "regular". As in, railroad owned. I'm not sure if they used 40', 50' or both. Again, examination of videos and photos will likely reveal all.
They didn't use chain hold downs. They tended to use cables and steel rod. Unlike the present day, they did a LOT of blocking.
I'm planning on someday doing a 1960 tank movement (and I WILL use the Roco flat), and the loading for mine included a sort of triangular block of wood between EVERY road wheel.
Oh, fun!!!
Oh, yeah. Those neat 50 cal's on the turret top? They can't be there.
Ed
Here's an interesting site:
http://usautoindustryworldwartwo.com/General%20Motors/unitedmotorsservice.htm
There is a picture of an M4 being loaded onto a freight car--you can see the blocking in place.
I have an HO scale Boley Sherman tank that I bought at a train show. It's a bit cheaper than the Roco models.
Gary
Gary:
Really interesting pictures!
I found 7 Sherman tanks on eBay last year for a really good price so I would like to model them in transit. I am modelling the late 50s so I don't need to duplicate the huge numbers of tanks that would have been on a train in WWII. By the late 50s I believe the Shermans that were still operational would have been assigned to reserve regiments.
It just so happens that my father was the Commanding Officer of the Ontario Regiment in Oshawa, Ontario in the early 60s. They had a half dozen Shermans which they prized dearly. Defense Department spending was so tight at the time that the Regiment had to rely on a local fuel oil dealer for fuel for the tanks. I could go on forever about the anecdotes related to the Regiment's operation of the tanks but here are a couple of juicy examples:
- A driver lost control one nice spring morning while driving a tank from the Armories in downtown Oshawa to the airport where the tanks were housed. He managed to smash through a fence. The fence happened to belong to Col. R. S. McLaughlin (of McLaughlin Buick fame) who happened to be the Honourary Colonel of the Regiment at the time. Red faces all round!
- At the airport the Regiment had a large area where they could operate the tanks. The problem was that part of the area was in rather low lying wet land. The tanks weren't supposed to go there but one of the crew commanders decided that the ground was firm enough for him to venture into the (for lack of a better word) muck! The tank got stuck of course, and repeated attempts to free it using all manner of heavy duty equipment eventually resulted in it being buried almost to the turret. Finally, the Regiment had to confess to the Regular Forces that they had pretty much lost a tank! A few days later two Regular Forces NCOs showed up in a 2 1/2 ton truck loaded with railroad ties and chains. The Regular Force guys instructed the Reservists to chain a tie across the front of the tank treads. Then they told the boys to advance the tracks a few feet and chain on another tie. Eventually, the tank was sitting on, for lack of a better word, a bunch of huge 'paddles'. When the first tie reached the back of the tank it was removed and re-positioned on the front of the treads. Lo and behold, the tank started to crawl out of the mud. Keep in mind that the Regular Force NCOs never touched a thing. It was the Reservists that were up to their derrieres in mud.
There are tons more stories but I need to stop stealing the thread.
I have a fond place in my heart for Sherman tanks.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Didn't Canada call them Grizzlies? There were lots of Sherman variations, with over a dozen builders, including all of the major North American locomotive builders of the time (Lima built the first ones!). In all, almost 50,000 Sherman tanks were built. Do you know which variants would be correct for Canada in your time period?
Tom
Hi Tom:
What I know as a 'Grizzly' is a 8 6 wheeled light armoured troop carrier. I believe they are still in use.
I haven't a clue about the specific details of the Canadian versions of the Shermans. My railroad is set in the late 50s so I think I can get away with pretty much any version of them.
For those with an interest in military equipment of the past, do try to visit Wisconsin's Fort McCoy on Armed Forces Day in May when they have an open house. In addition to equipment from WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and more recent (including Sherman tanks by the way), they have preserved barracks and other buildings. Moreoever it is still an active base that is rail served and they have their own EMD locomtive in US army colors. You can see various loading ramps on the grounds.
http://www.mccoy.army.mil/aboutus/commemorative.asp
hon3critter:
I guess I could be mistaken on that name. Several years ago I collected a considerable amount of material on Shermans as part of a research project on Lima Locomotive Works, and I thought I heard that name in the course of that research. Since then, I've thinned out the library and no longer have the Sherman reference material, so I can't look it up.
Good luck with the project.
hon30critterWhat I know as a 'Grizzly' is an 8 wheeled light armoured troop carrier. I believe they are still in use.
It's possible the Grizzly nickname has been recycled, with both the Sherman and the far newer 8-wheel LAV using the same?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grizzly_I_cruiser
The nicknames for the LAV are things like Bison, Cougar, Husky, and yes, probably the most common, the Grizzly infrantry carrier.
http://tanknutdave.com/the-canadian-avgp-family/
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Per Wikipedia, there was indeed a Sherman variant called the Grizzly made in Canada: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grizzly_I_cruiser. There were not many made, though, and the name was reused for an AVGP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVGP#Grizzly
I have no idea what Sherman tanks were in use in the '50s, though I was under the impression that the US kept the "Easy 8" version in service and retired all the others. I have a US Navy Flatcar someone gave me, so I thought I would mount the Sherman to the Flatcar as a USMC Tank.
By the mid-1950s, Shermans tended to be targets on gunnery ranges. There may have been a few around, probably limited to National Guard service...and little of that. Just from what I remember of my long-past interest in armor. The M4 was kind of an underdog before WWII was over vs Soviet armor in qualitative terms and then armor units were quickly upgraded when Korea started and budget became available again.
Net result was that many were melted down or sold/gifted to foreign allies, where they did remain in service into the 1970s in some places IIRC. An outbound shipment of used, but refurbished FMS tanks might be a very plausible load in the mid-50s.
garyaPer Wikipedia, there was indeed a Sherman variant called the Grizzly made in Canada: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grizzly_I_cruiser.
So I'm not crazy after all!
Amazing! I'm as surprised as anybody!
Tom, Mike and Gary:
Thanks for the interesting information about the Sherman variations.
The Ontario Regiment still had Shermans well into the 60s and possibly the 70s. Fortunately, not all of their tanks went under the cutters torch. There is a museum in Oshawa, Ontario that has collected tanks and other military vehicles from all over the world. Most of their specimens are still running. The Sherman(s) are used in parades regularly. I'm not sure how many Shermans they have, but there is at least one operational tank and I believe a second tank on permanent display outside the Oshawa Armories. The last time I went by it needed a paint job. I believe the museum is by appointment only but they have regular displays on Saturdays.
http://ontrmuseum.ca/
thanks for all this great stuff. i'll look into all of it. i've research those roco military models before and thought they were pretty cool. can't wait to put it all together
Nice reference photo showing blocking and tie-downs here:
I notice each tank is "nesting" in it's own timber cradle.
Good Luck, Ed
Very informative picture!
Thanks Ed
Searching for "Sherman tank" on the Walthers website comes up with quite a few RTR and kits. I couldn't find it, but I seem to recall seeing in the Walthers catalog a flatcar load that was supposed to be a tank shrouded with a tarp. As I recall, it was a lot cheaper than any of the actual HO tanks.
Two to a flatcar--many of the other pictures I've seen show one to a flatcar. I wonder what the weight limit is on those flats?
I saw those photos and wondered why they were tarped in the first place. A Sherman tank isn't exactly something that needs to be protected from the weather.
I got to wondering about it and decided they may be partially finished tanks heading for another assembly plant and may have actually needed to be protected from the elements.
If they were only partially finished, they would have been lighter than a competed tank, which may explain how they were able to load two to a flat.
garya Two to a flatcar--many of the other pictures I've seen show one to a flatcar. I wonder what the weight limit is on those flats?
The cars in Ed's photo look to me to be 50' 70 ton flats. Shermans weighed 33 1.2 tons. So, they "fit".
IF, however:
You've got a 40' 50 ton flat, two Shermans don't.
Note that, in the photo, the car numbers appear to have been "redacted".
For that matter, look at the gentleman second from the right. Note how he is not wearing an American uniform. Note how he might be "Asian". Wonder if there is something interesting here.
7j43kWonder if there is something interesting here.
There's ALWAYS something interesting here!
Buy War Bonds!
I don't know anything about that uniform. And your guess is as good as mine as to whether the man is Asian. Shermans were built for many Allied countries, so he could be a representative of one of the Allies. I do know the very first "production" Sherman tank was an M4A1 built by Lima in January, 1942. It was built for England, and was named "Michael" in honor of Michael Dewar, Liaison of the British Tank Commission. That tank never saw combat. It went to England for training, and still exists at the Tank Museum in Bovington, England.
Incidentally, the earliest Shermans came in two basic variants: M4 and M4A1. M4A1's had contoured one-piece hulls that were formed in one piece. Many plants lacked the capability to produce that large one-piece casting, so they produced the M4, which had a hull made by welding flat steel components together, creating the angular corners. Lima produced the one-piece hulls, but I don't know about the other companies. Later, many other variants appeared with different suspension, larger guns, a different angle of the front glacis plate, several different engine configurations, and other differences.
ACY Didn't Canada call them Grizzlies? There were lots of Sherman variations, with over a dozen builders, including all of the major North American locomotive builders of the time (Lima built the first ones!). In all, almost 50,000 Sherman tanks were built. Do you know which variants would be correct for Canada in your time period? Tom
From my reading, I think Ballantines books, the Grizzly was a maintenance depot produced upgrade. A Sherman with either a 90mm or a British 17 pounder main weapon would have used tank treads welded to the front of the hull and turret of the vechile. We are talking of an addition 12" of steel, all seam welded.
The intention was to provide an improved survival rate to go with the bigger weapon.
A USA army modification in Normandie was the addition of welded on lifttruck forks to serve as tusks so the tank could got through berms, as in hedgerow bases, instead of over. Going over would expose belly armour to infantry hand held weapons.
This american modification was thought up by a M/Sgt George Patton.
Enough of my meaderings
Artitec HO scale Sherman's and many other military veh are available from Reynaulds.com. They are expensive, about $36.00.
Reynaulds is in Elburn, Illinois
Rock Minitanks used to have a wide range of military, but they currently only have modern German. Might find old Roco on Ebay at lower price.
4
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.