I've actually bought sound equipped engines, removed teh sound decoders and replaced them with non-sound decoders. I bought the engines because I needed that type of engine (regardless of whether they had sound or not), but the performance was so horrible with the sound decoder, I jerked it out, put in a basic decoder and now it runs fine. At some point I will try putting a better quality sound decoder.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Southgate This topic reminds me... Around 4 1/2 years ago, after rejoining the hobby, I asked a question here to the effect; "Left behind by techlology, am I alone?" I admit, I like the sound Athearn BB diesels make too, as one reply above mentions, and the sound of the trains wheels. All mine are metal. Dan
This topic reminds me... Around 4 1/2 years ago, after rejoining the hobby, I asked a question here to the effect; "Left behind by techlology, am I alone?"
I admit, I like the sound Athearn BB diesels make too, as one reply above mentions, and the sound of the trains wheels. All mine are metal. Dan
Don't be concerned about being left behind. That thought is really the result of a common marketing ploy...trying to create a herd mentality among consumers. Hopefully, your good judgment about how to achieve what you want will outway the feeling of being left behind.
I'm new to dcc/sound. But so far, I find that metal wheels on cars being pulled by onboard sound engines creates noise competition. Like most who have responded, I like the volume of the loco to be no higher than about 25%. I switch cars alot, and that level of sound suits me. But at that level, when I run the train at 20 mph (not even faster than that) the sound of the wheels drowns out most of the sound of the loco, hearing nothing but a PM ambigous drone in the background.
Which is okay for me, but it kind of defeats the purpose of having to spending extra money for proto specific accurate sounds...that I can't hear.
Keep in mind, the "reviews" that are posted of locomotives, comparing the sounds of one decoder to the other, are just of a locomotive running light around a loop of track...often at 30 mph or greater. Why bother judging the proto accuracy of a PM by subjecting the loco to such unprototypical situations? A head scratcher for me.
Its very difficult to find 36 inch plastic wheels. I want to replace the metal wheels on my detailed cars so the adjustments I make to my sound locos can be heard whether I'm switching cars or pulling a train.
When I run silent on DC, I don't mind the sounds of the metal wheels.
- Douglas
I just wondered how many were using DC compared to DCC, BB diesels, etc. That sparked a debate, not the intention, and was the only thread I have ever started that I didn't read all the replies to! (This thread is a lot nicer)
I'm still running DC, but I can certainly see the draw to DCC. I was surprised to learn that about 50% still prefered dc, some having returned to it.
I run a small two cab DC block system layout. I just purchased the Kato sound box and have found it to be a lot of fun and...I can turn it way down or off if I just want to hear the train wheels going by. The drift feature is cool on the steam locos for realistic stops. The diesel cards are the best though. The locomotive light is on with no movement, then it starts moving after you move the throttle. You can start and stop the engine. Hands off, it revs up, and then goes. Stopping is the same, close the throttle and it will slow the locomotive to a controlled stop. I connected it to some good quality computer speakers under the layout and it sounds great to me. The only down side so far is it won't run one of my proto 2000 diesels. Some kind of compatibility issues I think. Runs all the others though. It is all the sound I need, as like a few of you I don't want it all the time.
I like it if used with some restraint. At a show a while ago I was trying to listen to a nice AMTRAK train and was drowned out by some guy's $***box steamer entirely across the layout. Total moron. I have one for now that is fun, I don't use it all the time. I am toying with possibly a couple more, but not a high priority.
PRR8259 Sheldon-- My challenge is that I don't know what to do for a jumper if I remove the sound and DCC...I don't know enough about the circuits involved, and most articles deal with how to install the sound and DCC, not how to rip it out and trash it, lol. So I just deal with running in "dcc mode" on the MRC Tech 6 where I can hit button number 8 twice to kill the sound. Plus I would want to retain the lighting... John
Sheldon--
My challenge is that I don't know what to do for a jumper if I remove the sound and DCC...I don't know enough about the circuits involved, and most articles deal with how to install the sound and DCC, not how to rip it out and trash it, lol.
So I just deal with running in "dcc mode" on the MRC Tech 6 where I can hit button number 8 twice to kill the sound.
Plus I would want to retain the lighting...
John
Well John, obviously it is different in every case. Putting lighting aside for a minute, DC does not need any "circuitry", the right side pickups go to the positive terminal on the motor, the left side pickups to the negative terminal. When the right hand rail is positive - the loco moves forward, when the left rail is positive - the loco moves backward.
Lighting has to do with what loco, what lights it has, and what you want them to do.
In the era I model, 1954, railroads were just considering the idea of having lights on in the day time, mars lights were a new idea, not imbraced by all, ditch lights were way off in the future.
As Doughless explained, the full voltage pulse width modulation of the Train Engineer turns the headlights on full brightness before the loco moves - with or without any special lighting circuits.
Who said DC was "low tech".......
A few examples - Bachmann non sound DCC locos have always come provided with jumpers for the eight pin plug - remove the decoder, plug in the jumpers, no more DCC, lights still work fine.
Some of my BLI conversions have also received Bachmann tenders, so it was just a matter of matching up some wires, and putting a BLI plug on the Bachmann tender.
Others are a complete rewire job with diodes and resistors for directional LED headlights.
One size does not fit all, and as you know for me that is part of the "model building" experiance.
But dual mode decoders do not respond correctly to the pulse width signal from the Train Engineer throttles, so the decoders have to go in my case. And I only use 13.8 volts, so they have to go because of the starting voltage they suck up.
Many dual mode DCC locos simply will not move at all with a Train Engineer throttle.....
See, I looked at all of this as it was being developed, and then even looked at DCC again. But knowing what I know about sound systems, I rejected onboard sound in HO long ago. Simply not worth the money to me.
Now in a larger scale with larger speakers..................
Yes, BLI and MTH have made it clear they don't want my money, so I don't have any MTH, and the few BLI locos I have, somebody in the chain of supply lost money or barely broke even......because that's the only way I buy them now that they all come with sound.
DISCLAIMER - I do have a few BLI/PCM locos from back in the day when they made some without DCC/sound that I paid "normal" prices for.........
Lucky for me, at about 135 powered units, I have most of the locos I need and want, and the secondary market still seems to provide stuff like DC Proto2000 stuff NOS.
Sheldon
John,
The AristoCraft Train Engineer throttle brings the lights on nearly full brightness BEFORE the locomotive moves. I use a simpler version of the throttle than Sheldon. But, alas, they've been run out of the market. I've got 2 spares now just in case I need them in the future.
When I run silent, I run DC, and both wireless and lighting was important to me, so the old Train Engineer is definitely the highest quality throttle.
As others have mentioned, none of the sounds are very authentic anyway, so I choose the least objectionable of the group. And I care about the sound of the horn, and the ability to mute down the sounds to produce a nice, pleasant, Prime Mover ambiguous drone.
So the QSI group of sound decoders are definitely the highest quality sound decoder because they hav the best horn and more ambiguous PM sounds. But, alas, they've been run out of the market too.
One thing I do love about sound is it sets the mood while getting the switch list worked up.
Here's a real example that happen last month on my ISL.
Its a hot and muggy July evening as SSRy SW1500 #615 is idling by the crew quarters while the "crew" goes over their work and has a quick cup of coffee before starting their day's work. I was under the A/C but,it was indeed a hot and muggy evening outside.
That brings back memories of when I was a brakeman because that was a normal routine and yes even on a hot and muggy July evening we drank coffee.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I don't like the sound that is installed in engines. I find it annoying after a few minutes. I recently purchased three Intermountain engines, two with sound. I removed the speakers and the impossible to program decoders. I replaced the decoders with TCS.
I have two BLI engines that have sound, but it is disconnected. I am thinking of replacing those decoders too.
PRR8259 If it were simple, I'd actually remove the sound from every engine I own that has it. Upon further review, I've learned just how inaccurate many of the sounds (still) are...totally incorrect whistles for a given railroad, incorrect chuff sounds for a given steam engine type, etc... I absolutely resent being forced to purchase engines that have both sound and DCC because certain manufacturers will no longer offer any other alternative. I would like to say I will not buy any more engines offered with both sound and DCC, but given limited offerings in some roadnames or models, I might not be able to hold to that. My youngest son is now somewhat beyond the age at which he was impressed by sound and smoke... For me, since I prefer plain DC and no sound, brass models are becoming more attractive purchase possibilities than today's hybrids or plastic steamers (though I do have 2 hybrids). John
If it were simple, I'd actually remove the sound from every engine I own that has it. Upon further review, I've learned just how inaccurate many of the sounds (still) are...totally incorrect whistles for a given railroad, incorrect chuff sounds for a given steam engine type, etc...
I absolutely resent being forced to purchase engines that have both sound and DCC because certain manufacturers will no longer offer any other alternative. I would like to say I will not buy any more engines offered with both sound and DCC, but given limited offerings in some roadnames or models, I might not be able to hold to that.
My youngest son is now somewhat beyond the age at which he was impressed by sound and smoke...
For me, since I prefer plain DC and no sound, brass models are becoming more attractive purchase possibilities than today's hybrids or plastic steamers (though I do have 2 hybrids).
John, that is what I do, I simply remove the decoders and the sound. But I don't buy the darn things unless it is a serious good deal.........
Dual mode decoders don't work with my Aristo throttles, so they have to go.
As for how good or bad the sounds are, accurate or not, the lack of accostic fidelity is what I can't deal with, they all sound like a 1965 9 transistor radio to me........at any volume.
My other hobby is hifi...........
Apparently, there is dislike for many of the ancillary noises that producers are stuffing into the decoders memory. (probably because they are annoying to the ear)
I'm not one to bash producers, since they have a tough job to satisfy all of the different interests, but here are a few thoughts:
Most of the consuming public could care less about prototypical accuracy to the nth degree. They don't even know what many of the sounds are.
But the producers seem to think that protoypical accurate sounds, and more of them than the next guy, makes for a "higher quality" decoder.
No, not if the sounds that are being recorded are annoying. And most sounds that a real train makes are annoying.
Pursuing prototypical accuracy can make for an inferior product.
Just like operations. Nobody models a unit grain train being loaded, because its unsatisfying.
Record what sounds good. Skip what doesn't. And endure the comments from those who say "its not an accurate sound"
I have an Atlas c424 with Loksound. Great loco, great decoder. And even though the representation of the AlCO PM is the "most accurate" on the market, it chugs like a steam engine. I like the nonaccurate QSI C420 better, because it has only a hint of the Alco chug. It sounds less accurate...but way better.
And as a peronal peeve about turbochargers: Since most diesels sound decoders depart from accuracy on the high frequency side, why bother adding a yet higher frequency turbocharger to an already ear splitting abundance of treble? Trust me, others are annoyed too, except they don't realize its the turbocharger.
Its not that big of a deal if your gp40 sounds more like a gp38. Only a few care. When they criticize a producer for a gp40 sounding like a gp38, they don't mention the possiblity that an accurate sounding gp40 is annoying. They just hammer something for not being accurate.
I like sound.
It is not a requirement, but it can be enjoyable.
I will echo the others here and say that 99% of mine are turned down and I really really agree with all the damned random noises do get annoying very fast!
Most need some tweaking here or there, but I do enjoy hearing my train working upgrade or coming out of the tunnel at the club.
Now on my testbench/glorified 45 inch layout? It is turned off! Unless the kid has to play with stuff and then I leave
At the top of my to do list before the layout becomes operational is to figure out how to have JMRI send out a "mute all" command at startup.
Sound is fun to play with now and then. It's also fun to demo to visitors. What I mostly like is the horn and bell, which usually sound fairly realistic. The diesel engine sounds get annoying and sound rather tinny. I have no plans to run full time with sound. I have a few, but for the most part, I'm buying DC or preferably DCC ready locos and putting non-sound decoders in them.
And BTW, another reason to reject sound IMO is that I don't like giving up the weight in the loco to make room for a speaker.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
The number one reason I have very few sound equipped diesels is cost. For me it helps me afford the trains I would like to buy if I get the non-sound versions (cheaper). The few sound equipped loco's have been splurges so I could have a few to experiement with or run at modular meets where it seems it's good for "show".
One of the benefits of not buying much sound is I've avoided wasting money on a lot of low quality sound engines. All the early Athearn Genesis up to about 2008 were equipped with the much hated MRC sound decoders I've heard so many bad things about over they years. The opinion was universal enough against them that Athearn relented and switch to a different brand. I dodged that bullet completely and strictly bought non-sound Genesis that whole period.
Unfortunately when I finally did get some sound diesels, mainly because I wanted more road numbers in the Atlas GP40-2's, they came with the also, not-so-hot, QSI sound, which many have also been very unimpressed with. Same with the Tsunami I, have two diesels with that, generally not majorly impressed with it either. In fact the only diesel sounds that really wowed me so far are the newer LokSound diesel which I don't have any of.
So long and short of it, what sound I have gotten has been basically so-so and with a tight budget, I'm sure glad I didn't get deeper in with the sound that I do have; the value hasn't really been that good, for me anyway. I do hope some of the newer generation are substantially better and make it worth the extra cost.
Of course if money was no object, sure, I'd buy sound in every engine "just in case", but with the ever higher cost in HQ trains, what with most of your better quality rolling stock now costing $35-50 each, and a limited budget, you have to choose to have somethings and not others. I'd prefer HQ rolling stock over sound since I don't have unlimited funds.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I am in the same school of thought as you although I did buy two Bachmann sound value locos one steam one diesel to run as demonstrators. I also courtesy of my DW have the MRC system but use it rarely.
Party this is because I operate late nights and although my wife is at work I do not want to wake the dog or landlady downstairs who is also my mother in law.
Joe Staten Island West
Old Thumper So, you guys are paying a pretty hefty premium when buying locomotives that have sound decoders, and then turning them off and complaining that the sound is annoying ???? Why do you buy them in the first place?
So, you guys are paying a pretty hefty premium when buying locomotives that have sound decoders, and then turning them off and complaining that the sound is annoying ????
Why do you buy them in the first place?
mobilman44 has provided you with the perfect answer in the reply just prior to this one.
Rich
Alton Junction
Hi!
Well, this topic sure has been discussed before. And it seems that those of us with sound locos tend to agree that:
- the sounds are a wonderful addition to the layout experience.
- too much or too loud of sounds gets old after awhile.
So the good news is one can turn the sounds on or off or softer or louder as we desire. There is no bad news.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
With my grandson we run the Lionels with sound and blow the whistles.
Otherwise I run the sound very low or turn it off. Of course with S scale the speaker is a little larger which helps. But I find that there is a lot of noise in my life, so running the trains with sound off is very relaxing.
Pauk
Yes I now immediately turn off the sound. I actually prefer to listen to the minimal locomotive operational noises only.
If you just want to turn it off, it's a good sign you can benefit from turning it WAY DOWN. I think Dave is being a bit generous if he runs sound at 30% of max. I typically run mine in the 10% to 15% of max range.
Besides the comfort issue, it's also the case we're usually trying to make the layout space we have seem bigger. If you crank the volume, it's like standing next to the loco, usually something that makes the layout seem smaller. Set the volume low and your loco becomes instantly perceived as more distant.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I lIke to run with the sounds off periodically. I love the sound decoders in my locos, especially playing the bell and whistle sounds. All depends on my mood and if I want sounds playing, or not. To each their own in this case.
Alvie
Rarely if ever do I mute a DCC sound locomotive while in use on my ISL. During my daze in the oil refinery it was always thrilling to hear, see and feel the contract switch engine revving up and belching out a big dark cloud of diesel smoke as it labored to pull a string of loaded LPG tank cars up from the loading racks. Of course my HO scale sound equipped switcher model doesn't impart the same thrill as it revs up while pulling a string of model railcars upgrade from the carfloat, but for me it mimics well enough to make the operation extremely satisfying and much more fun than silent running ever was.
Regards, Peter
I have not yet had the opportunity to run sound locomotives for any length of time, but I do know that the factory settings for sound volume are wayyy too high. I have read many posts that say the same thing. The first CV(s) that I change are the volume settings, usually down to 30% or so of max. Some sounds I do turn off completely because, as others have said, they just aren't pleasant to listen to.
I am really looking forward to setting up the new "Full Throttle" effects on my Loksounds but they won't be at full volume.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
selector This has been discussed many times in my eleven years on this forum. Here's the thing: (I won't buy locomotives without sound because I like it...sort of.) DCC sound is crappy quality. No, really. Until they get speakers that can reproduce prototypical sounds at or above 85% fidelity, it's just an approximation. Good luck with that. The sound box-tenders and fuel tanks are too small to produce bass and heavier sounds. Sound doesn't scale worth a darn. Just like real water on a layout, it is all wrong. It's bad enough we can't really scale realistic distances on our layouts, but having two decoders on opposite sides of a short line sounding the same volume when we're operating on one end is problematic. As most of us admit eventually, it's darned noisy and irritating. I also mute my decoders. Fortunately, most of mine are QSI variants whose master volume can be adjusted, but also the mute volume does not have to be either on or off; it can be adjusted from 50% max all the way down to 1%. In order to keep me enjoying the poor sound quality when I am running trains, I only allow two locomotives at a time to give off customized sounds at customized volume. All the rest are on muted idle or muted entirely. Again, QSI's have a three stage shutdown that lets the decoder only play a few muted sounds here and there in the first two stages. While I love my steam, and applaud all the decoders guys have provided in the way of sounds for all appliances and ambient noises, some of them are downright annoying in their intrusiveness. Blow downs, pop offs, and injector noises, while real, just get annoying when they are repeated periodically. I usually adjust their individual volumes down to the 30% range...or less. Even the bells, chuffs, and whistles are down so that they sound close to the apparent scale distance. Soundless gizmos making whirring or grinding noises along tiny rails just don't cut it for me. I think there is a hefty realistic component imparted by the tinny sounds.
This has been discussed many times in my eleven years on this forum.
Here's the thing: (I won't buy locomotives without sound because I like it...sort of.)
DCC sound is crappy quality. No, really. Until they get speakers that can reproduce prototypical sounds at or above 85% fidelity, it's just an approximation. Good luck with that. The sound box-tenders and fuel tanks are too small to produce bass and heavier sounds.
Sound doesn't scale worth a darn. Just like real water on a layout, it is all wrong. It's bad enough we can't really scale realistic distances on our layouts, but having two decoders on opposite sides of a short line sounding the same volume when we're operating on one end is problematic. As most of us admit eventually, it's darned noisy and irritating.
I also mute my decoders. Fortunately, most of mine are QSI variants whose master volume can be adjusted, but also the mute volume does not have to be either on or off; it can be adjusted from 50% max all the way down to 1%.
In order to keep me enjoying the poor sound quality when I am running trains, I only allow two locomotives at a time to give off customized sounds at customized volume. All the rest are on muted idle or muted entirely. Again, QSI's have a three stage shutdown that lets the decoder only play a few muted sounds here and there in the first two stages.
While I love my steam, and applaud all the decoders guys have provided in the way of sounds for all appliances and ambient noises, some of them are downright annoying in their intrusiveness. Blow downs, pop offs, and injector noises, while real, just get annoying when they are repeated periodically. I usually adjust their individual volumes down to the 30% range...or less. Even the bells, chuffs, and whistles are down so that they sound close to the apparent scale distance.
Soundless gizmos making whirring or grinding noises along tiny rails just don't cut it for me. I think there is a hefty realistic component imparted by the tinny sounds.
And the moral of the story is:
The more you try to accurately reproduce sounds that are inherently objectionable, the more objectionable the product becomes.
tstage Doughless Yes, but I'm finding that harder to do. When I mute, the BEMF buzz comes through, so I have to leave some of the sound on to conceal the shortcomings of the motor control part of the decoder. Of course I operate at 20 mph and pull 8 cars, so I hear the buzz. If I pulled a 30 car train at 40 mph, all of the mechanical racket might make me think that the decoder is actually running silently. Doughless, I guess I have silient decoders because my locomotives are extremely quiet when the sound is turned off. Tom
Doughless Yes, but I'm finding that harder to do. When I mute, the BEMF buzz comes through, so I have to leave some of the sound on to conceal the shortcomings of the motor control part of the decoder. Of course I operate at 20 mph and pull 8 cars, so I hear the buzz. If I pulled a 30 car train at 40 mph, all of the mechanical racket might make me think that the decoder is actually running silently.
Yes, but I'm finding that harder to do. When I mute, the BEMF buzz comes through, so I have to leave some of the sound on to conceal the shortcomings of the motor control part of the decoder.
Of course I operate at 20 mph and pull 8 cars, so I hear the buzz. If I pulled a 30 car train at 40 mph, all of the mechanical racket might make me think that the decoder is actually running silently.
Doughless,
I guess I have silient decoders because my locomotives are extremely quiet when the sound is turned off.
Tom
I don't. Keep in mind that 95% of the comments on the internet come from the perspective of those who install sound decoders into non-factory models. So I'm not sure if that universe is totally comparable to factory OEM sound decoders.
I only buy factory OEM sound locos, which, if they are capable of being set to a non buzz status, the factory chooses not too.
I have protoTsunami, proto/qsi, Atlas/qsi, Atlas/Loksound, Fox Valley/Loksound. They all do it. Some worse than others. The older QSI's are much MUCH quieter than the newest technology. Interesting.
I would love to buy more QSI's, but the proto-accurate modelers ran them out of the market. Now I'm left with nonproto BEMF buzz being concealed by "more authentic" (but horrible) turbocharger sounds that can't be shut off because the sounds have been ..UNFORTUNATELY...recorded from real locomotives and not computer generated...like good ol' QSI's are.
Ever switch cars with a Fox Valley GP60 at speed step 1? My gawd that $260 loco is annoying. If its not the idling turbocharger sound, its the BEMF buzz.
But when I crank it up and pull 30 cars at 40 mph, it sounds acceptable.
Except I find that the noise from the metal wheels on my train tend to compete with it.
I thought I just repiled to a thread such as this.
I don't do DCC and sound. A concious descion that I made.
Reading numerous threads on burnt decoders, trouble speed matching, sending them back to the Mfg/Dealer for service and waiting weeks/months plus the cost invvolved and my desire as well for less noise, it was really a no brainer for me.
I do have an MRC sound system for Locos that only get used when my Grandson is here. He like blowing the horn for the Diesels and the whistle for the steam locos.
I have model railroaded for years and do not want to convert, I am very satisfied with my three Control Master 20s and DC block system that I understand far better than I do electronics. And I am old enough and wise enough to know where the fun lies and where problems would start to ruin the hobby for me.
To each their own,,,,, If you like it, go for it............TOOT
I guess you could call me "old school"
Brakie (larry) you are so right. Even though I have quieted my Athearns quite a bit, I too still like some of their growl. That seems far more realistic Than the DCC sound which has yet to impress me.
Johnboy out.
from Saskatchewan, in the Great White North..
We have met the enemy, and he is us............ (Pogo)
I turn mine off around 30-45 minutes.
Funny thing..I still enjoy the gear to shell noise a Athearn makes.Of course 90% of them had weight added to the inside top of the shell and they run much quiter.