PRR8259 If it were simple, I'd actually remove the sound from every engine I own that has it. Upon further review, I've learned just how inaccurate many of the sounds (still) are...totally incorrect whistles for a given railroad, incorrect chuff sounds for a given steam engine type, etc... I absolutely resent being forced to purchase engines that have both sound and DCC because certain manufacturers will no longer offer any other alternative. I would like to say I will not buy any more engines offered with both sound and DCC, but given limited offerings in some roadnames or models, I might not be able to hold to that. My youngest son is now somewhat beyond the age at which he was impressed by sound and smoke... For me, since I prefer plain DC and no sound, brass models are becoming more attractive purchase possibilities than today's hybrids or plastic steamers (though I do have 2 hybrids). John
If it were simple, I'd actually remove the sound from every engine I own that has it. Upon further review, I've learned just how inaccurate many of the sounds (still) are...totally incorrect whistles for a given railroad, incorrect chuff sounds for a given steam engine type, etc...
I absolutely resent being forced to purchase engines that have both sound and DCC because certain manufacturers will no longer offer any other alternative. I would like to say I will not buy any more engines offered with both sound and DCC, but given limited offerings in some roadnames or models, I might not be able to hold to that.
My youngest son is now somewhat beyond the age at which he was impressed by sound and smoke...
For me, since I prefer plain DC and no sound, brass models are becoming more attractive purchase possibilities than today's hybrids or plastic steamers (though I do have 2 hybrids).
John
John, that is what I do, I simply remove the decoders and the sound. But I don't buy the darn things unless it is a serious good deal.........
Dual mode decoders don't work with my Aristo throttles, so they have to go.
As for how good or bad the sounds are, accurate or not, the lack of accostic fidelity is what I can't deal with, they all sound like a 1965 9 transistor radio to me........at any volume.
My other hobby is hifi...........
Sheldon
I don't like the sound that is installed in engines. I find it annoying after a few minutes. I recently purchased three Intermountain engines, two with sound. I removed the speakers and the impossible to program decoders. I replaced the decoders with TCS.
I have two BLI engines that have sound, but it is disconnected. I am thinking of replacing those decoders too.
Sheldon--
My challenge is that I don't know what to do for a jumper if I remove the sound and DCC...I don't know enough about the circuits involved, and most articles deal with how to install the sound and DCC, not how to rip it out and trash it, lol.
So I just deal with running in "dcc mode" on the MRC Tech 6 where I can hit button number 8 twice to kill the sound.
Plus I would want to retain the lighting...
One thing I do love about sound is it sets the mood while getting the switch list worked up.
Here's a real example that happen last month on my ISL.
Its a hot and muggy July evening as SSRy SW1500 #615 is idling by the crew quarters while the "crew" goes over their work and has a quick cup of coffee before starting their day's work. I was under the A/C but,it was indeed a hot and muggy evening outside.
That brings back memories of when I was a brakeman because that was a normal routine and yes even on a hot and muggy July evening we drank coffee.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
PRR8259 Sheldon-- My challenge is that I don't know what to do for a jumper if I remove the sound and DCC...I don't know enough about the circuits involved, and most articles deal with how to install the sound and DCC, not how to rip it out and trash it, lol. So I just deal with running in "dcc mode" on the MRC Tech 6 where I can hit button number 8 twice to kill the sound. Plus I would want to retain the lighting... John
John,
The AristoCraft Train Engineer throttle brings the lights on nearly full brightness BEFORE the locomotive moves. I use a simpler version of the throttle than Sheldon. But, alas, they've been run out of the market. I've got 2 spares now just in case I need them in the future.
When I run silent, I run DC, and both wireless and lighting was important to me, so the old Train Engineer is definitely the highest quality throttle.
As others have mentioned, none of the sounds are very authentic anyway, so I choose the least objectionable of the group. And I care about the sound of the horn, and the ability to mute down the sounds to produce a nice, pleasant, Prime Mover ambiguous drone.
So the QSI group of sound decoders are definitely the highest quality sound decoder because they hav the best horn and more ambiguous PM sounds. But, alas, they've been run out of the market too.
- Douglas
Well John, obviously it is different in every case. Putting lighting aside for a minute, DC does not need any "circuitry", the right side pickups go to the positive terminal on the motor, the left side pickups to the negative terminal. When the right hand rail is positive - the loco moves forward, when the left rail is positive - the loco moves backward.
Lighting has to do with what loco, what lights it has, and what you want them to do.
In the era I model, 1954, railroads were just considering the idea of having lights on in the day time, mars lights were a new idea, not imbraced by all, ditch lights were way off in the future.
As Doughless explained, the full voltage pulse width modulation of the Train Engineer turns the headlights on full brightness before the loco moves - with or without any special lighting circuits.
Who said DC was "low tech".......
A few examples - Bachmann non sound DCC locos have always come provided with jumpers for the eight pin plug - remove the decoder, plug in the jumpers, no more DCC, lights still work fine.
Some of my BLI conversions have also received Bachmann tenders, so it was just a matter of matching up some wires, and putting a BLI plug on the Bachmann tender.
Others are a complete rewire job with diodes and resistors for directional LED headlights.
One size does not fit all, and as you know for me that is part of the "model building" experiance.
But dual mode decoders do not respond correctly to the pulse width signal from the Train Engineer throttles, so the decoders have to go in my case. And I only use 13.8 volts, so they have to go because of the starting voltage they suck up.
Many dual mode DCC locos simply will not move at all with a Train Engineer throttle.....
See, I looked at all of this as it was being developed, and then even looked at DCC again. But knowing what I know about sound systems, I rejected onboard sound in HO long ago. Simply not worth the money to me.
Now in a larger scale with larger speakers..................
Yes, BLI and MTH have made it clear they don't want my money, so I don't have any MTH, and the few BLI locos I have, somebody in the chain of supply lost money or barely broke even......because that's the only way I buy them now that they all come with sound.
DISCLAIMER - I do have a few BLI/PCM locos from back in the day when they made some without DCC/sound that I paid "normal" prices for.........
Lucky for me, at about 135 powered units, I have most of the locos I need and want, and the secondary market still seems to provide stuff like DC Proto2000 stuff NOS.
I like it if used with some restraint. At a show a while ago I was trying to listen to a nice AMTRAK train and was drowned out by some guy's $***box steamer entirely across the layout. Total moron. I have one for now that is fun, I don't use it all the time. I am toying with possibly a couple more, but not a high priority.
I run a small two cab DC block system layout. I just purchased the Kato sound box and have found it to be a lot of fun and...I can turn it way down or off if I just want to hear the train wheels going by. The drift feature is cool on the steam locos for realistic stops. The diesel cards are the best though. The locomotive light is on with no movement, then it starts moving after you move the throttle. You can start and stop the engine. Hands off, it revs up, and then goes. Stopping is the same, close the throttle and it will slow the locomotive to a controlled stop. I connected it to some good quality computer speakers under the layout and it sounds great to me. The only down side so far is it won't run one of my proto 2000 diesels. Some kind of compatibility issues I think. Runs all the others though. It is all the sound I need, as like a few of you I don't want it all the time.
This topic reminds me... Around 4 1/2 years ago, after rejoining the hobby, I asked a question here to the effect; "Left behind by techlology, am I alone?"
I just wondered how many were using DC compared to DCC, BB diesels, etc. That sparked a debate, not the intention, and was the only thread I have ever started that I didn't read all the replies to! (This thread is a lot nicer)
I'm still running DC, but I can certainly see the draw to DCC. I was surprised to learn that about 50% still prefered dc, some having returned to it.
I admit, I like the sound Athearn BB diesels make too, as one reply above mentions, and the sound of the trains wheels. All mine are metal. Dan
Southgate This topic reminds me... Around 4 1/2 years ago, after rejoining the hobby, I asked a question here to the effect; "Left behind by techlology, am I alone?" I admit, I like the sound Athearn BB diesels make too, as one reply above mentions, and the sound of the trains wheels. All mine are metal. Dan
Don't be concerned about being left behind. That thought is really the result of a common marketing ploy...trying to create a herd mentality among consumers. Hopefully, your good judgment about how to achieve what you want will outway the feeling of being left behind.
I'm new to dcc/sound. But so far, I find that metal wheels on cars being pulled by onboard sound engines creates noise competition. Like most who have responded, I like the volume of the loco to be no higher than about 25%. I switch cars alot, and that level of sound suits me. But at that level, when I run the train at 20 mph (not even faster than that) the sound of the wheels drowns out most of the sound of the loco, hearing nothing but a PM ambigous drone in the background.
Which is okay for me, but it kind of defeats the purpose of having to spending extra money for proto specific accurate sounds...that I can't hear.
Keep in mind, the "reviews" that are posted of locomotives, comparing the sounds of one decoder to the other, are just of a locomotive running light around a loop of track...often at 30 mph or greater. Why bother judging the proto accuracy of a PM by subjecting the loco to such unprototypical situations? A head scratcher for me.
Its very difficult to find 36 inch plastic wheels. I want to replace the metal wheels on my detailed cars so the adjustments I make to my sound locos can be heard whether I'm switching cars or pulling a train.
When I run silent on DC, I don't mind the sounds of the metal wheels.
I've actually bought sound equipped engines, removed teh sound decoders and replaced them with non-sound decoders. I bought the engines because I needed that type of engine (regardless of whether they had sound or not), but the performance was so horrible with the sound decoder, I jerked it out, put in a basic decoder and now it runs fine. At some point I will try putting a better quality sound decoder.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
One of advabtages of having the MRC system is that when I do turn it on I can leave it at a low volume. Life in Staten Island is never totally quiet in the real world so having a little background noise adds an element of reality to the layout. Also the SIW being a small layout so I can leave the bell on while switching any loco and use the horn where approriate. It is not much different then using those bluerail locos that have the sound eminate from the cell phone throttle except that it comes from over the layout.
Just thought I would bring that in.
Joe Staten Island West
joe323Also the SIW being a small layout so I can leave the bell on while switching any loco and use the horn where approriate.
Joe,My SSRy has a "good neighbor" policy and only uses the horn for grade crossings or emergencies. This is found under the FRA rules of bell and horn use in switching.
In short while switching there is no need to sound the horn with every change of direction or use the bell continually.
For the record, I am one of those "left behind by technology" in that I do prefer good old plain DC. I have only a handful of brass steam engines, but because they are later models and well made with good gearboxes, they will run as well or better in plain old DC as anything that has a dual mode decoder, or is worse yet the infernal DCC only.
I don't need dcc at all, but for engines like the brass hybrids I do have the MRC Tech 6 which allows me to access some of the infernal dcc features like sound and lights (so I can run the engine with sound turned off).
Short of tearing things apart and removing all the decoders then reconnecting wires or figuring out a jumper solution, I am able to get by with the MRC Tech 6.
I just purchased and read the latest edition of MR at the train store, and completely resent the plethora of topics in it relating to today's dcc. I felt as if they are trying to shove dcc down my throat. What a waste of paper.
BRAKIE joe323 Also the SIW being a small layout so I can leave the bell on while switching any loco and use the horn where approriate. Joe,My SSRy has a "good neighbor" policy and only uses the horn for grade crossings or emergencies. This is found under the FRA rules of bell and horn use in switching. In short while switching there is no need to sound the horn with every change of direction or use the bell continually.
joe323 Also the SIW being a small layout so I can leave the bell on while switching any loco and use the horn where approriate.
Works for me larry the SIW has one public grade crossing and one private one.
Doughless, I kinda felt left behind back when I posted that question, but now I don't. Everything runs fine on DC, and it is a ISL. Pretty much a 1 operator layout, even though it is capable of 2. Some sounds might be nice, but not enough to be worth the bother of converting.
Southgate Doughless, I kinda felt left behind back when I posted that question, but now I don't. Everything runs fine on DC, and it is a ISL. Pretty much a 1 operator layout, even though it is capable of 2. Some sounds might be nice, but not enough to be worth the bother of converting.
I think there is a natural tendancy to want to be part of a herd, thinking that I am missing something that everyone else is enjoying. But if you enjoy your layout and equipment as it is and everything works, I just can't see the reason to spend efforts and money to change.
I'm growing to like more ambiguous diesel sounds. Not real specific, but just a hint of difference between an EMD, GE, or Alco. I think the efforts to make sound decoders proto specific is starting to get out of hand. I've mentioned annoying turbo whine at low speeds, and Alco sounds that mimmic a HarleyDavidison VTwin about to throw a rod.
I don't care if they are more accurate representations than "lesser" brands....they are nearly intolerable to listen to.
I know Soundtraxx and MRC make or made "diesel sounds" sound decoder, but Soundtraxx has wonky slow speed control and MRCs burn up, and they are aftermarket products anyway.
PRR8259 For the record, I am one of those "left behind by technology" in that I do prefer good old plain DC. I have only a handful of brass steam engines, but because they are later models and well made with good gearboxes, they will run as well or better in plain old DC as anything that has a dual mode decoder, or is worse yet the infernal DCC only. I don't need dcc at all, but for engines like the brass hybrids I do have the MRC Tech 6 which allows me to access some of the infernal dcc features like sound and lights (so I can run the engine with sound turned off). Short of tearing things apart and removing all the decoders then reconnecting wires or figuring out a jumper solution, I am able to get by with the MRC Tech 6. I just purchased and read the latest edition of MR at the train store, and completely resent the plethora of topics in it relating to today's dcc. I felt as if they are trying to shove dcc down my throat. What a waste of paper. John
Why not show us your impressive DC wiring/switch panels like LION does instead of getting angry? Being upset about stuff you can't control is too much work.
Julian
Modeling Pre-WP merger UP (1974-81)
BRAKIEMy SSRy has a "good neighbor" policy and only uses the horn for grade crossings or emergencies. This is found under the FRA rules of bell and horn use in switching.
Larry, Thanks for the info. Having had some complaints from the TV room on the other side of the wall about overly frequent horn blasts I'll be instituting the "good neighbor" policy on my ISL. Being a good neighbor goes a long way towards maintaining model railroading expenses in the household budget.
Regards, Peter
It would be nice to be able to plug head phones into your controler and hear sound that way
[quote user="CGW121"]
nevermind
CGW121 It would be nice to be able to plug head phones into your controler and hear sound that way
By expanding the technology of the Broadway Limited "Rolling Thunder" I wonder if that possibility isn't far off?
I had a Rolling Thunder decoder out of the engine and there is a piggy-back board with a little RF antenna that transmits to the BLI reciever. Maybe they just have it tuned to low frequencies but I'm sure it wouldn't be a far stretch to have the full dynamics transmitted to a wearable reciever and ear buds or headphones.
The blue wire is the antenna, the board marked BLI-T300-8 is the transmitter.
Interesting concept!
Ed
CGW121It would be nice to be able to plug head phones into your controler and hear sound that way
Lance Mindheim has done some interesting work using wireless headphones/sound decoder and explains it in depth with photos under the "how to" section of his website.
HO-Velo CGW121 It would be nice to be able to plug head phones into your controler and hear sound that way Lance Mindheim has done some interesting work using wireless headphones/sound decoder and explains it in depth with photos under the "how to" section of his website. Regards, Peter
I do a fair amount of model railroading alone, but I don't see myself ever wearing headphones......
PRR8259 For the record, I am one of those "left behind by technology" in that I do prefer good old plain DC. I have only a handful of brass steam engines, but because they are later models and well made with good gearboxes, they will run as well or better in plain old DC as anything that has a dual mode decoder, or is worse yet the infernal DCC only.
I'm a DC operator by choice, and I don't feel "left behind by technology" at all. I simply hopped-off the technology train at a point which suited me best
PRR8259 I don't need dcc at all, but for engines like the brass hybrids I do have the MRC Tech 6 which allows me to access some of the infernal dcc features like sound and lights (so I can run the engine with sound turned off). Short of tearing things apart and removing all the decoders then reconnecting wires or figuring out a jumper solution, I am able to get by with the MRC Tech 6.
I don't need dcc at all, but for engines like the brass hybrids I do have the MRC Tech 6 which allows me to access some of the infernal dcc features like sound and lights (so I can run the engine with sound turned off). Short of tearing things apart and removing all the decoders then reconnecting wires or figuring out a jumper solution, I am able to get by with the MRC Tech 6.
While it may be annoying to pay for stuff that you're not going to use, I'd guess that you could quite easily remove that "infernal DCC stuff" and re-wire the locomotives to better suit your needs. I've done so to all of mine, except the brass ones of course, but my era didn't use daytime headlights, so I need only to rewire the motor. I do, however, add all-wheel pick-up to locos not so equipped - most of the "infernal DCC ones" (I'm speaking of steam locomotives here) are already so equipped, so all of that technology may not be as bad as you think. It's easy enough to modify the tenders to all-wheel pick-up, too.
PRR8259 I just purchased and read the latest edition of MR at the train store, and completely resent the plethora of topics in it relating to today's dcc. I felt as if they are trying to shove dcc down my throat. What a waste of paper. John
Dave;
I dont have sound at all. In fact I don't even have DCC, and I'm as happy as a lark! Sound, especially in steam locomotives can easily be acquated to a symphony orchestra, with a myrid of sounds at any given time. I've been around steam all my life. Not a week goes by that I dont see it operating. That said, model train sound to me is more like a Bluegrass band. Here and there sounds that don't cut it when you listen to the real thing. While one can adjust the volume to suite, you still have the same general sounds from the chips.
Like you, I enjoy the simple sounds of the metal wheels over the rail joints and over switches. On rare occaisions when I have a derailment, I can pick up the odd sound immediately as opposed to after the train stops, or after most of the train is on the ground. By actually hearing the train, I can tell where it is on the layout without always having to see and be with it.
Old Thumper So, you guys are paying a pretty hefty premium when buying locomotives that have sound decoders, and then turning them off and complaining that the sound is annoying ???? Why do you buy them in the first place? I love the addition of sound effects myself...
So, you guys are paying a pretty hefty premium when buying locomotives that have sound decoders, and then turning them off and complaining that the sound is annoying ????
Why do you buy them in the first place?
I love the addition of sound effects myself...
I will often turn the sound off, especially on diesels which, to me, sounds like a vacuum cleaner or an appliance.
Why do I buy them?
1) it is nice to have the option. For me, it's what I'm in the mood for.
2) the price difference really isn't that bad anymore. I bought a Walthers SD70ACe with sound, and it was only about $40 more. Can hardly buy a good decoder for that much anymore.
I have given up counting how many times we had the discussion about sound or no sound in the past years.
It does not lead anywhere other than to find out that some of us like sound and some of us don´t - as if we hadn´t known that before! The only difference to the past discussions on this topic is that the contributions in general stay fairly civil and that´s a big step forward!
Sir Madog I have given up counting how many times we had the discussion about sound or no sound in the past years. It does not lead anywhere other than to find out that some of us like sound and some of us don´t - as if we hadn´t known that before! The only difference to the past discussions on this topic is that the contributions in general stay fairly civil and that´s a big step forward!
And some of us like sound in some situations and not in others.
I think large scale sound is way cool, because the train is larger, you are in a more "intimate" experiance with the locomotive, sound quality is better, etc.
Not so in smaller scales, HO or smaller. Especially if you have more than one train running or the layout is medium sized to large.
O and S, well for me it depends on the setting, sometimes sound is nice, sometimes not.
And, this is also linked to speaker size, sound quality being better in larger scales, etc.
It is nice to see that most on this forum have become more tolerant of different viewpoints.
One size does not fit all...........