Anyone modeling the Santa Fe rebuilds should at least try and find a copy of Santa Fe Railway Rolling Stock Reference Series, Volume 2, Refrigerator Cars, by C. Keith Jordan et al. I have used this book as a reference to build a creditable fleet from both CB&T and IMR kits. I would suggest building at least one IMR kit first, then use it as a reference to superdetail the CB&T kits. These kits do get a bad rap from some, but I've found that, with a little bit of TLC (and a LOT of patience) they will build into a fine looking car. The book is available in digital form from the ATSF Modelers Society. I was lucky enough to find a hard copy on E-bay, but good luck with that! (^O^)
The Intermountain kits will probably fill the bill quite well. For some variety, you might want to supplement them with one or two of these:
Westerfield lists AT&SF Rr-R, Rr-S, and Rr-X reefers as currently available on their web site. These resin kits are quite a challenge for many modelers, but well worth the effort.
Sunshine used to produce several different AT&SF reefers, but they haven't been readily available since the founder, Martin Lofton, passed away a few years ago. Like the Westerfield kits, they are challenging, but worth the effort.
Sunshine kits, and earlier out-of-production Westerfield kits sometimes show up on eBay or at model RR shows.
Tom
Not only FGE, but you would see WFEX, ART, MDT, and even BAR reefers on ATSF trains...but almost never PFE
I have thought about getting one of the IMR ATSF 57 mechanical reefers because they looked basically correct, but I've never one a critical side by side examination. As is so often the case, the devil is in the details and it comes down to having a "stand-in" if there is no accurate model available. Since there are usually other models higher on my need list, that one will stay on the back-burner for now. Still good to know about it.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
The Intermountain 57' mechanical reefer is "close" to the RR-91 class. This all depends on your definition of "close". The refrigeration unit/compartment/screen is slightly different from the SP/UP/PFE orders, and the truck spacing is different.
The body style is otherwise pretty "close".
John
There are NO true SF mechanical reefers on the market in HO. The Bachmann is probably closest.
It is a wonder why nobody has brought out the RR-56 class...these were the first large number of mechs that SF operated. They were on the road from the mid 50s to the mid-80s and had 3 different lettering schemes.
Thanks John, I know this is about ATSF reefers but since you mentioned the PFE Intermountain, I wanted to carify that.
I have seen the Red Caboose wood side reefers - they are more expensive and not a match for the wood side PFE so it sounds like.
Good to know the SP/UP/WP folks are good to go. Thats me.
riogrande5761--
Those reefer designations you referred to: R-40-23, R-40-25, R-40-10 are all SP/UP/PFE class designations. This thread was specifically about Santa Fe reefers. So far as I'm aware, most of the Intermountain reefers are correct for SP/UP/PFE, and they are much more common on the market. MTH also makes a very nice PFE reefer, an "earlier" wood sided prototype.
One Red Caboose wood sided FGE reefer is NOT an SP/UP/PFE car, but a Fruit Growers Express prototype. They usually identify it as such on the box.
SP/UP/WP modelers have it easy as a number of rtr reefers are correct, as well as the kits, and they are all easy to find.
Trainman440 Yes, I've decided on buy Intermountain kits. These are the most accurate model ot there other than brass, and is pretty cheap. Thanks for the relpies!
Yes, I've decided on buy Intermountain kits.
These are the most accurate model ot there other than brass, and is pretty cheap.
Thanks for the relpies!
I think you'll be happy with the Intermountain ice reefer kits. They are well designed and very detailed. The will be a bit of a challenge if you are used to shake in the box kits like Athearn and Accurail but the results will be a nicely detailed reefer.
Since many of the parts that come in that come in Intermountain kits are very fine and fragile and can be time consuming and difficult to cut from the sprues with a hobby knife (without braking them), I highly recommend buying a Sprue cutter tweezer like the one Micromark sells:
http://www.micromark.com/tweezer-sprue-cutter-despruing-tweezer,8012.html
I bought a sprue nipper that looks the same as the one above from a tool dealer at a train show years ago and used to build some Intermountain and Proto 2000 kits with lots of tiny parts; the sprue nipper is amazing and I love it.
If you build lots of the Intermountain kits, the investment in that tool will really pay off and help that process go much better. Cutting all those tiny parts off the sprue is a chore, but with the sprue cutter it goes much faster and it cuts them off very cleanly and saves you from breaking them in the process. If you get one and use it, you will know what I mean!
Cheers
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Modeling the Santa Fe & Pennsylvania in HO
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PRR8259 Do not confuse the actual Santa Fe ice reefers with the more common (and painted for just about everybody including those who did not have them) Pacific Fruit Express reefers also offered by Intermountain.
Do not confuse the actual Santa Fe ice reefers with the more common (and painted for just about everybody including those who did not have them) Pacific Fruit Express reefers also offered by Intermountain.
So are the Intermountain R-40-23, R-40-25 and R-40-10 reefers that they have been selling in Double Herald Color and B&W, at least those correct? I think Tony Thompson has been using them when I read his blog.
I was talking about the later 57' MECHANICAL reefers, where it is more difficult to model Santa Fe consists. You can buy the Intermountain Santa Fe mechanical reefer and move the truck spacing to the correct location...which sounds like work to me (I would just use them as is and call it good enough). There are minor differences in refrigeration details, too, from prototype ATSF cars. Then you have only a couple reefer classes represented and not the vast majority of the Santa Fe fleet.
It sounds like ATSF modeling has it's challenges. I have picked up few for 1970's including the Moloco Bx94, the BLMA Bx166, and the ExactRail PC&F Bx210. I haven't vetted the ER PC&F 6033 50' box car yet.
Athearn also offers a correct Santa Fe 50' steel ice reefer. In real life there were only 100 cars in that class, and they were never around in all the map/train name paint schemes Athearn has offered, but instead only a few. 40' Steel reefers were much more common on Santa Fe. The Athearn car is very nicely done. I think the Texas Chief lettering is one of the few "correct" schemes. John
Yes, the Athearn 50' ATSF ice reefer is a nicely done car and can be found for a decent price for what you get. I may pick up a single for grins but yeah, not very common in the grand scheme of things. Is there a version that is best for early/mid 1950's?
Enough has been said about most of this, and the OP has stated his goal.
I will just say this, you could not give me any CB&T kit if I actually had to build it. I am a seasoned kit builder, but those kits are junk. The parts don't fit, the paint jobs are sloppy, the plastic is brittle and hard to glue/work with.
Personally, I have lots of ATSF reefers, old Athearn, new Athearn, Intermountain, Varney metal cars, Athearn 50'ers, and more. They are all close enough for me.
My blocks of ATSF reefers get transfered to the ATLANTIC CENTRAL for points east on a regular basis, then head back west.
Sheldon
No, the Intermountain Santa Fe ice reefers are a pretty correct car. The reviews were done by others. Intermountain offered the car lettered in several Santa Fe classes representing thousands of prototype cars.
Athearn also offers a correct Santa Fe 50' steel ice reefer. In real life there were only 100 cars in that class, and they were never around in all the map/train name paint schemes Athearn has offered, but instead only a few. 40' Steel reefers were much more common on Santa Fe. The Athearn car is very nicely done. I think the Texas Chief lettering is one of the few "correct" schemes.
It's the 40' Athearn reefer from ancient tooling, which is very common, and which I would not buy.
All interesting information John. So by what you are saying, all if the Intermountain ATSF ice reefers, as nicely detailed as they are, they are all "stand-in's" or some might say foobies and are not close matches to any real ATSF ice reefer?
Due to Santa Fe's connection to Great Northern, via Western Pacific, and also other railroads that actually used the Fruit Growers Express reefers (also yet a different design, and often still wood sided late into the "ice age") it was possible to see FGE cars mixed with the occasional Santa Fe car. This was much more common than any PFE/ATSF consists.
I would not use any Athearn "Santa Fe" ice reefers on my railroad, when Intermountain kits of the Santa Fe reefer are still readily available (especially in the east--they can be found).
Also, with only a couple "exceptions" there are no prototype Pacific Fruit Express-specification reefers, ice or mechanical, that were ever ordered by Santa Fe. The "exceptions" being a couple Santa Fe mechanical reefer classes from the 1960's, including but not limited to RR-91. However, these cars have noticeably different truck spacing on the prototype than either Intermountain's model or the numerous SP/UP prototypes had.
So Intermountain's model of the mechanical reefer requires modifications to represent a "Santa Fe" car.
Many of the Santa Fe mechanical reefers were built in the road's own shops at Topeka, KS, and are completely different from all other prototype refrigerator cars. For that reason, modeling modern Santa Fe mechanical reefer consists well is a challenge.
John, thanks for the reply. What you stated is more or less what I expected was true. From what few photo's I've seen of Cab Forward era PFE trains, they usually were pretty much solid blocks of PFE only reefers.
Speaking of PFE trains in the east, it would be interesting to know what route those PFE ice reefers traveled, end to end. Of course they originated in California and traveled on SP/UP over the western end of the route, but where did they go from there? Just curious.
Speaking of the PFE book, is that the book by Thompson & Church? That is one book I someday want to acquire and read. One of these days!
Cheers, Jim
RioGrande5761--
While the occasional foreign road reefer would indeed show up on anybody's railroad, the general answer is:
NO, you would only rarely see actual ATSF reefers on SP/UP, and certainly not in any quantity.
There would have been a higher probability on Western Pacific, but on SP/UP, no.
In the east, certain roads (like Erie) generally carried the Santa Fe reefer trains, while the Pacific Fruit Express consists would have been more numerous (due to having a larger fleet of cars) and would have gone everywhere.
However, whether empty (westbound) or loaded (eastbound), you did not generally see Pacific Fruit Express cars mixed with Santa Fe cars.
Fruit Growers Express was the third or fourth major reefer supply network (other being NYC/MDT), included a large number of railroad participants that generally had less reefer need all year around, and you would have seen more Santa Fe cars mixed with FGE cars than you ever would see Santa Fe cars mixed into PFE trains.
The big thick, orange PFE book is a fascinating read. I'm not even sure if the author talks much about Santa Fe at all. They were arch rivals in the reefer business, as in some other things.
mobilman44 While the Athearn BB reefer kits may not be exact, a string of them with KDs, IM wheelsets, a bit of weathering and a coat of Dull-Cote makes for a pretty nice looking train. The OP says money is a factor, and "for the money", you won't do any better. Yes, I also have a number of the expensive kits on my layout, and yes, they are more realistic than the Athearns, but the Athearns look pretty darn good - and will run "forever"..............
While the Athearn BB reefer kits may not be exact, a string of them with KDs, IM wheelsets, a bit of weathering and a coat of Dull-Cote makes for a pretty nice looking train. The OP says money is a factor, and "for the money", you won't do any better.
Yes, I also have a number of the expensive kits on my layout, and yes, they are more realistic than the Athearns, but the Athearns look pretty darn good - and will run "forever"..............
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
riogrande5761....Any idea if the ATSF reefers were mixed in to the mostly PFE blocks?
I honestly couldn't say for certain. I recall seeing more PFE cars than those of the SFRD up here in Ontario, but did see both. I can't see why you couldn't have a few SFRD cars in with the PFEs....both roads served the west coast areas where the loads originated and most of those reefer blocks were moving east and northeast.
Intermountain does a couple versions of the PFE wood and steel reefers and Tichy does a very nice wood one, and has recently announced decal sets to do various versions of PFE cars.
Wayne
Wayne,
Nice reply regarding the reefers, especially for those of us who don't model ATSF specifically. While I am mainly an SP/DRGW 1970's and 1980's guy, I did pick up an Intermountain AC-10 Cab Forward and have been building up some rolling stock to pull behind it. From what I gather, those pulled reefer blocks of the PFE ice reefers, although their may have been some "foreign" reefers mixed in at times. Any idea if the ATSF reefers were mixed in to the mostly PFE blocks?
For those of us who aren't specifically Santa Fe modellers, there's some info HERE on the Rr23 and Rr25 reefers.
I model the late '30s, and by then, the Santa Fe was already rebuilding their USRA double sheathed wood reefers into steel cars. I replaced this one, an Intermountain car built from a decorated kit, because the paint scheme was too modern...
...with two of these, built from undecorated Intermountain kits:
I also built this one, from an undecorated Accurail kit, to represent one of the original Rr4 cars, adding or modifying details to better match a photo of one of the real ones...
Lettering for all three cars is a mix of Champ, Microscale, and C&BT Shops decals.
If the Intermountain cars, r-t-r or kits, are too pricey, I'd guess that the Athearn cars could be made into decent stand-ins without too much difficulty. You can buy the Accurail floor/underframe separately and modify it, if needs be, to fit a cut-apart Athearn car, or simply add a scratchbuilt fishbelly underframe to the unmodified Athearn body casting. Another alternative is to use frames from Athearn's 40' flatcar, although the ends of the intermediate crossbearers will need to be modified.Tichy offers kits for hatch platforms, and while they're not the same style as those used by the SFRD, they can be modified to suit, either as the original or shortened versions, depending on your layout's operating era.As for the Athearn doors, modify them to suit: the reefer shown below started as an Athearn kit.
I modified the doors and underframe, and replaced the roof with a scratchbuilt one. Paint is PollyScale, with C-D-S lettering. With a November 1939 BLT. date, it just makes it into my operating era.
Tichy, real cheap and quality above intermountain at times (those metal roof walks warped on most everyone I know).
The late Andy Sperandeo wrote two extraordinary product reviews of Santa Fe reefer models that you should read.
The more jaw-dropping of the two is that of CB&T Shops' version(s) of various forms of the RR-19 series. Sperandeo reviewed this in the January 1993 issue of MR, page 52, and it might well be the longest and most detailed product review ever published in MR because he painstakingly goes through every step needed to not only make the cars go together and run right but be accurate. It is a masterpiece of informed product reviewing and basically he said the kit was one to make a Santa Fe modeler happy and sad at the same time. He put a lot of work into that model. It must be a bear to assemble.
The other review is of an Intermountain RR-32 reefer that was actually being offered by Longs Model RR Supply at the time. Whether Intermountain ever brought back the kit into its own offerings I do not know. Once again Andy wrote a very detailed and informative review of interest to anybody concerned with accurate Santa Fe modeling. March 1996 Model Railroader page 40.
Dave Nelson
Really your best option is to bottom feed old ITM kits. They are exactly the same as the RTR models (at least they were). Red Caboose makes PFE reefer kits that can help fill out a train. The other sources are going to be more expensive and the kits will require painting and decaling. This is lots of fun for a few cars but gets to be a drag when you start doing 20 or 30 kits to build a decent reefer block….
I regularly follow these kits on Ebay and they can be subject to feeding frenzies depending on the time of year. I’m seeing the average around 12-15 per kit – well below the 29 for the RTR…There are lots of these kits around as many bought them and were disappointed with the number of parts to be put together. I currently need to build about 25 more to complete my layout OPS plan…
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Trainman440 Thanks for the suggestion, but again, ITM is out of the question. I've seen ITM kits go for $10 on the Bay (and they are really common for that price), which is a lot cheaper than the occasional $20 RTR. Is the kit the same as the RTR? Or Does the RTR kind a lot more detailed? Thanks Charles
Thanks for the suggestion, but again, ITM is out of the question. I've seen ITM kits go for $10 on the Bay (and they are really common for that price), which is a lot cheaper than the occasional $20 RTR.
Is the kit the same as the RTR? Or Does the RTR kind a lot more detailed?
Thanks
Charles
What is out of the question? Intermountain RTR or Intermountain kits? I'm guessing you mean the RTR due to cost.
AFAIK, the kits are the same thing as the RTR, just assembled. Intermountain isn't like Athearn where they took the old bb kits and gussied them up in the RTR form; Intermountain kits have all the details included and should look just the same as the RTR assuming you can get them together neatly and without breaking the tiny parts and no grubobs (glue bobs).
BTW, if you are going to assemble a bunch of those IMR kits, if you don't have one, get yourself a despruing nipper. They make getting those tiny parts off the sprue super easy and chances of you breaking any in the process of cutting them off the spues are greatly minimized.
If you an find Intermountain kits for $10 on ebay, sounds like that is your solution. Problem solved.
Thanks for the suggestion. I've seen ITM kits go for $10 on the Bay (and they are really common for that price), which is a lot cheaper than the occasional $20 RTR.