I'm scrolling through different photos of trains from railpictures.net and google.It seems a lot of stuff from the Central/Midwest part of the US has yet to be made in HO Scale like the RDC the Rock Island used as the "Choctaw Rockette" or how bout the Chessie Streamliner? I have yet to see an actual release of that. or how about of Monon's "Tippecanoe" or "Thoroughbred"? Atlas already made the Alco C420 Engine, but where are the passenger cars that go with it?!
I still think Mopac/MKT are good roads, but we should see more passenger releases from them instead of just the ATSF, UP, and SP.
How come the ATSF U28CG is offered only in Brass, but no one re-relreased it in a plastic RTR DC/DCC Ready Version?
ATSF is a big favorite, I'm puzzled why that U-Boat was passed over, modelers would have been proud
Why is that certain roads are popular when it comes to freight, but get turned down as Passenger? Anyone have any idea on why this is?
What would you like to see on the HO Scale Market if that certain road was popular?
The Santa Fe red warbonnet paint scheme has been enormously popular since Lionel first used it on F units years ago. It was also featured prominently in children's cartoons. At one point in HO the vast majority of all trainsets ever sold were also Santa Fe red warbonnet, though since the demise in 1995, that has begun to change.
I was a member of the Santa Fe Railway Historical and Modeling Society. Many of the members focused on the transition era and/or the pre-Amtrak era of Santa Fe. That is changing, but most focused on Santa Fe pre-1971 operations.
The U30CG has also been done in brass...but not everybody needs one.
Generally speaking, the manufacturers avoid doing diesel models that are unique to only one railroad, with limited exceptions (UP DDA40X).
The Katy and other fine roads ran through sparsely populated country, without perhaps ever having quite the appeal of some "bigger" railroads to HO modelers.
It's the southeastern U.S. railroads that sell among the worst, as reported to me by one manufacturer.
John
ATSFGuyI have yet to see an actual release of that. or how about of Monon's "Tippecanoe" or "Thoroughbred"? Atlas already made the Alco C420 Engine, but where are the passenger cars that go with it?!
I'd certainly take something in black and gold, although the red and white scheme is OK, too. But these cars were pretty specific to the Monon and unlikely to be done in anything other than brass (oops, that's about over) or if you can find some of the old Walthers kits for the converted US Army hospital cars that made up much of the train. You can find the Walthers troop sleeper converted to a head end baggage or mail storage car if you keep looking.
In general, that's the sort of list that should have you considering practicing your kitbashing or scratchbuilding skills, as that's the most likely way to put your hands on many of those cars, literally.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
mlehman...In general, that's the sort of list that should have you considering practicing your kitbashing or scratchbuilding skills, as that's the most likely way to put your hands on many of those cars, literally.
I agree with Mike. If you want a model of a prototype not otherwise available, the solution is to build it yourself. With the vast array of models available nowadays, there's likely a starting point already out there, but it's up to you to recognise it.With the methods and materials now available, and information only a keyboard away, you should be able to build any of the ones you've mentioned.In addition to the fact that you'll have a model unique to your skills, the satisfaction of creating it is a high with which r-t-r simply can't compete.
Wayne
The various manufacturers make what sells, and it is a safer proposition to stick with the most popular trains.
There have been a lot of MKT, Mopac, Frisco, and other passenger trains offered in brass, both as individual cars at times and also as complete sets. The prices would range from rather affordable (say $100) for some older single cars to a few thousand dollars for some complete sets that are painted and detailed.
One HO plastic manufacturer told me privately they will not introduce any more HO freight cars because there is just not enough money to be made on them. After a second release, many HO freight cars become a tough sell by the third or fourth run. In some cases the freight car tooling has actually never been completely paid for by the subsequent sales which must be at a competitive price point within the industry. It is more cost effective to sell engines, especially fully loaded with sound and DCC. That is the trend. There's more dollars per unit sold to work with there.
I'm sure a few specialty freight car companies like Tangent and ExactRail (and Kadee) will be around for a long while, but I wouldn't count on a lot of new freight car releases from some of the others. More warmed over re-releases or updates of previously offered cars will be the general trend, with the occasional nice surprise.
It's not as easy to make a model and sell it for profit as some folks on internet forums apparently think it is.
I guess MKT, Mopac, Frisco sell well in freight, not passenger.
Atlas could sell a run of streamlined lightweight passenger cars lettered for CBQ, CRIP, MKT, Mopac, Frisco, and Monon. The Monon cars could either be painted Red/Grey or Black Gold and have six axle trucks, while the othe passenger cars would have 4 axle trucks. They did a run of Heavyweights, so why not do LW's this time?
Atlas could if they wanted to.
It would be nice to see manufacturers take a risk outside of the "standard tired fare". I know eastern roads have low appeal, but would it hurt if seldom-seen streamliners or locomotives from that area were released once in a while?
Just Sayin
ATSFGuyAtlas could if they wanted to...SNIP...Just Sayin
Yeah, Atlas or someone else could, but as has been explained, there's little economic rationale for it.
On the other hand, you don't need an economic rationale, you simply have to want it bad enough.
Choose for yourself which is more likely to make something happen.
Hi,
Well, a lot of railroads just didn't capture the MR buyers eye or interest. Roads like the Santa Fe, NYC, UP and PRR probably account for a very large percent of total sales. I suspect the Santa Fe is "number 1", for its movie history, movement from the midwest to the "golden state", and of course Lionel put them on F units beginning in the late '40s (along with NYC).
I'm certainly an ATSF "nut", but also love the Illinois Central. But the IC just never caught on with the MR crowd. Even with its beautiful orange/chocolate streamliners, high speed runs, and name trains, not to mention "The City of New Orleans" in song. Of course that song talked to the "disappearing railroad blues", which was pretty universal for much of the country. Lastly, it didn't help that the IC had some "unhandsome" steamers - mainly augmented by the huge square sand domes.
That's just the IC's commentary, but I suspect all the other "unpopular" roads have their own version..........
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
The manufacturers have released some other trains:
BLI has done Wabash equipment.
Walthers has a B&O passenger train out now complete with illuminated dome cars with installed figures!
Walthers has done a Pere Marquette passenger train...
There is actually some neat stuff out there to be had.
Athearn and Walthers have done select Rock Island and Frisco passenger cars in red paint schemes, that are correct cars.
Walthers has offered correct sleeping cars for Nickel Plate Road, IC, and others...
I'll be sure to throw out all my railroad pins that "don't sell" and keep the ones that "do sell" when I get home.
I can always re-purchase them, it's not a problem.
So I guess we get safe common deomonator products since no one is willing to take any risks then. It's a shame only a small handful of roadnames sell and the other half is ignored.
You are missing the point.
Once somebody becomes a manufacturer, it is a business, and at that point if you don't make a profit you are done.
I know of one manufacturer right now who is still sitting on some Seaboard Coast Line engines they made, that are correct, good models, and very well painted, that did not sell. They practically can't give them away, have openly joked about that fact in online forums, and regularly strip them for parts to fix others. Too many sales losers like that and one is gone.
I like the oddballs myself, and there have been many more of them in recent years. It's been only lately that some Canadian and Mexican stuff has been readily available.
Fact: right now, Canadian diesels are outselling U.S. roadnames at much better than 2 to 1 for some manufacturers and/or models. That's why they are introducing more correct version Canadian models. The Canadians buy and also do not complain very much at all. It's an easy market.
PRR8259 Fact: right now, Canadian diesels are outselling U.S. roadnames at much better than 2 to 1 for some manufacturers and/or models. That's why they are introducing more correct version Canadian models. The Canadians buy and also do not complain very much at all. It's an easy market. John
It is also worth pointing out that more and more of us in the USA are watching Canadian railroads, the CN and CP to be specific, due to their aggressive expansions into this country. One of the most popular train watching spots in the Milwaukee metro area is where the CP (former Milwaukee Road/Soo Line) crosses the CN (former Wisconsin Central, former Soo Line).
The UP also is present in the Milwaukee area but runs far fewer trains. That and the Wisconsin & Southern are the only "made in the USA" railroads in town.
Dave Nelson
@PRR8259: I would never say the Katy ran through sparsely populated country. That´s much more the case with the UP and western divisions of MILW, NP & GN (I´d say Wyoming, Utah, Nevada, Idaho, Montana, North & South Dakota are the most sparsely populated states when you leave out Alaska). But I agree with you on southeastern roads who sell the worst. Don´t know what the reasons are though. The southeast had some quite colorful roads (SAL & ACL diesels, SR green steamers...). Or maybe it´s simply because southeasterners aren´t as much into model railroading as the rest? I don´t know...
I like midwestern roads as they come straight after my favorite roads (SP, ATSF, T&P). I´m especially a fan of the Katy, Rock Island and Chicago Great Western.
I really like the fact that F Units of the Katy and CGW have been released. But I would love to see more steam: CGW 2-10-4´s would be very cool. I like them because they are very similar to the T&P Texans except having a coal tender and lacking the Elesco feedwater heater. I guess only 100 pieces were ever made in brass in a strictly limited run by Glacier Park Models. They can reach prices up to $2500 because they are so rare! Crazy! I also like Rock´s Mountains and Northerns. My favorite RI steamer, the red boilered 4-8-2 was made by Division Point but also way too expensive and rare. More affordable die cast metal models would be nice instead of overpriced and super-rare brass. Although not being a fan of Pacifics and Mikados, I somehow like Katys Pacifics and Mikados very much. But only very few brass models exist of them. And of course I would love to have a correct Katy/Frisco Texas Special with matching E7 and PA. I simply love the combination of red and silver, and the Texas Special therefore in my eyes is even more beautiful than the SP/RI Golden State scheme as both colors are represented twice instead of only once.
Back in 2004, Athearn released a set of Genesis Texas & Pacific Passenger F3A/F3B's in Blue/Tan, but if no T&P passenger cars exist in HO Scale, then what are we supposed to pull with it?
Interesting info! Didn´t know yet T&P used F´s in passenger service! Yes, you´re right, they (as well as BLI´s E8) have nothing to pull when there are no T&P passenger cars available. The only non brass T&P cars I recall so far are Rapido Train coaches, which aren´t prototypically correct as they are based in CN prototypes. I´ll have to keep on waiting for the Eagle to fly along one day...
Certain roadnames are not as popular as we think.
A specific railroad from the southeast designed to appeal to everyone ends up attracting no one.
It's kinda like a tv channel that's not a basic cable channel, but a digital bonus channel which Joe consumer has to pay an extra fee on top of in order to receive, but advertisers aren't interested in pouring money into a channel that doesn't show anything new or original. Subscription fees are the only revenue.
Mobilman44 said:
I'm certainly an ATSF "nut", but also love the Illinois Central. But the IC just never caught on with the MR crowd. Even with its beautiful orange/chocolate streamliners, high speed runs, and name trains, not to mention "The City of New Orleans" in song. Of course that song talked to the "disappearing railroad blues", which was pretty universal for much of the country. Lastly, it didn't help that the IC had some "unhandsome" steamers - mainly augmented by the huge square sand domes. That's just the IC's commentary, but I suspect all the other "unpopular" roads have their own version..........
I model the IC in 1955. I have to respectfully disagree about the Paducah rebuilt steam locomotives being "unhandsome". I think the square domes give them a distinct look that is quite attractive.
There are also a lot of chocolate brown and orange passenger cars available. Unfortunately few of them really match the prototype. But can you really say that the manufacturers model any road accurately? I don't think they do. For the most part if you want a truly accurate car you have to spend the time and money on a resin model of your prototype or kitbash and scratchbuild. For many people, myself included, that's one of the more fun aspects of the hobby.
Simple economics makes it a losing proposition to make a highly accurate model of one specific prototype car or locomotive. If you have a medium to large layout, you need a lot of cars and on most model railroads they need to be from many different railroads. There is no way a manufacturer can economically sell all of the variations the railroads used even on "standard" cars. Railroads all had their own specifications even when buying standard cars from a big manufacturer. Handbrakes varied, Canadian railroads used different ladders on a lot of their box cars with the stirrup step being part of the ladder, even on the ends. Tichy makes those ladders, but how many CN and CP decorated boxcars come with them from the manufacturer?
There were all kinds of variations of a "standard" car like the 1937 AAR boxcar.
Then there were the cars the railroads built in their own shops. Pullman Standard even sold kits to the railroads and there were a lot of boxcars that looked like PS1s but weren't because the railroads used ends from the kits on other cars they built themselves. The IC built some of those cars.
As prototype modeling gets more popular we are seeing more accurate offerings from the manufacturers, but we are also seeing limited runs and preorders.
I don't think there are any modelers modeling any railroad who are completely served with protoypically accurate models for their railroad. Even the ATSF, Pennsy, NYC, SP and UP modelers are buying generic cars for the most part.
That said, I don't understand why Walthers never released the original City of Miami as one of it's passenger trains. It was a short train, one E6 and 7 cars. But they sell fast on the secondary market whenever the brass or even tha old inaccurate IHC cars turn up. I think that one would sell.
Jeff White
Alma IL
If one Manufacture is willing to step up to the plate, I'll tak a ATSF U28CG in Red/Silver.
Overland Models imported at least 53 U28CG's from Ajin Precision during 1987. The unpainted ones have a current full retail value (based upon international sale values which are higher than in the U.S., from brasstrains.com) of less than $225. The factory painted ones are listed as less than $325. They are out there to be had; you just have to find one. They are not the holy grail.
A plastic version is likely not to ever happen. The prototype was blamed for a high speed wreck early during their career, and they were removed from passenger train service and demoted to high speed freight service. For the number of units a manufacturer must make and sell in plastic just to break even, it's a virtual certainty that it will never be done. Even the brass ones are just not the most popular models.
Even if you and 100 other people would "step up to the plate", you would be probably 2000 units short of any reasonable plastic "minimum". That's the problem. Even then there wouldn't be enough sales for a second run, which would normally be needed to pay for the tooling. This of course assumes the first run would be a sellout.
As pointed out earlier, the production of MR cars and locos is a BUSINESS. They will produce what - in their estimation - will sell.
Many years ago a LHS moved to bigger quarters here in Spring (Tx). The owner put in a whole section of Thomas the Tank stuff. I was surprised, for the owner was known to be a stickler for scale models and didn't like "toys". When I asked him about the large shelf space allotted to Thomas, he said "they sell", and it was a big part of his sales revenue.
Gotta reply to JWhite's comments about my comments on the ICRR........
The IC is my sentimental favorite RR, mainly from spending childhood time at my grandmom's in Anna (IL) in the '50s - with her house being right next to the tracks. My avatar is a model of said house. My layout is primarily postwar Santa Fe, but I do have a beautiful set of IC E units and Walther's IC passenger cars that make special runs.
While I think the rebuilt IC steamers (with the square sandbox) are "unattractive", if BLI or Bachmann came out with one, I would buy at least one in a heartbeat.
While on the subject..... my biggest complaint of the MR manufacturers is the application of RR names on locos and cars that the railroad never used. In particular, the ATSF is on most every USRA steam loco that BLI produces, yet the Santa Fe never had any........... I don't consider myself a rivet counter but that sure does bug me.
OK, I'm done..............
ATSFGuyor how bout the Chessie Streamliner?
If you mean C&O's 1948 still born "Chessie" it was shelved due to a down turn in passenger business.
As for the Sportsman or FFV then I agree.Walthers did the George Washington.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE As for the Sportsman or FFV then I agree.Walthers did the George Washington.
Actually, that was Bachmann. Walthers has not released a steam-powered set.
I think that Walthers missed an opportunity by not bringing out C&O-painted E8s as a follow-up to their C&O streamlined passenger cars-- they would have been useful for C&O modelers modeling outside of Michigan (meaning the vast majority of the C&O system), and the much-modeled coal country. The E7s mostly stayed in Michigan.
-Fritz Milhaupt, Publications Editor, Pere Marquette Historical Society, Inc.http://www.pmhistsoc.org
fmilhauptActually, that was Bachmann. Walthers has not released a steam-powered set.
You're correct it was Bachmann.
The George,Sportsman and FFV could be made with Walthers C&O E8s(if ever release) and passenger cars.
The Sportsman ran from Ashland, Ky (split from GW) to Detroit. For some reason the C&O changed names from the Sportsman to George Washington Detroit section. Still the local fans in Columbus and railroaders called it the Sportsman.
By the mid 60s the Sportsman was a ideal "pike size" passenger train usually a single E8,a baggage car and 2-3 coaches and snack car.
mobilman44 My biggest complaint of the MR manufacturers is the application of RR names on locos and cars that the railroad never used. In particular, the ATSF is on most every USRA steam loco that BLI produces, yet the Santa Fe never had any........... I don't consider myself a rivet counter but that sure does bug me. OK, I'm done..............
My biggest complaint of the MR manufacturers is the application of RR names on locos and cars that the railroad never used. In particular, the ATSF is on most every USRA steam loco that BLI produces, yet the Santa Fe never had any........... I don't consider myself a rivet counter but that sure does bug me.
The real reason for the application of the Santa Fe roadname to many USRA light mikados is that more than one printed reference source claims the USRA light mikado to be based upon a Santa Fe mikado. Santa Fe had a couple classes of mikado that have very similar overall dimensions to the USRA light mikado, so that on paper they are "close" indeed. However, in real life, if you study photographs, the Santa Fe mikados were cosmetically rather different from the USRA versions.
Again--for the manufacturer it is a matter of what sells. Santa Fe always sells, very well.
For road specific steam power, unless it's a USRA engine or one of the many USRA "copies" which were very close, the only game in town will usually be to buy brass. If it isn't NYC, PRR, UP, ATSF, or SP, it probably isn't going to be made in HO plastic, with limited exceptions (2-8-8-4's).
PRR8259 mobilman44 My biggest complaint of the MR manufacturers is the application of RR names on locos and cars that the railroad never used. In particular, the ATSF is on most every USRA steam loco that BLI produces, yet the Santa Fe never had any........... I don't consider myself a rivet counter but that sure does bug me. OK, I'm done.............. The real reason for the application of the Santa Fe roadname to many USRA light mikados is that more than one printed reference source claims the USRA light mikado to be based upon a Santa Fe mikado. Santa Fe had a couple classes of mikado that have very similar overall dimensions to the USRA light mikado, so that on paper they are "close" indeed. However, in real life, if you study photographs, the Santa Fe mikados were cosmetically rather different from the USRA versions. Again--for the manufacturer it is a matter of what sells. Santa Fe always sells, very well. For road specific steam power, unless it's a USRA engine or one of the many USRA "copies" which were very close, the only game in town will usually be to buy brass. If it isn't NYC, PRR, UP, ATSF, or SP, it probably isn't going to be made in HO plastic, with limited exceptions (2-8-8-4's). John
It's smart business to decorate cars and locomotives in multiple road paint schemes. Not everyone is that concerned with correct minute detail and it helps the manufacturer amortize his tooling. Plus getting a GG1 in road names like SP or Milwaukee Road appeals to some folks. And look at all the Overton passenger cars MDC sold over the years for those with tight curves.
Being in a minority scale, S, I really appreciate the opportunity to get a variety of freight car road names, even if the cars are not correct for the road. I would love to see some 4-4-0's and other engines in S regardless of the specific prototype followed. Same for open platform passenger cars and many other goodies.
As someone noted above you can scratchbuild and/or detrail to as correct a model you want.
Paul
Of course Paul is right...that's why a few manufacturers are producing the "what if" locos, based upon actual orders that were cancelled. They're trying to wring every dollar they can out of the tooling they have. Maybe they can only sell one run of Lehigh Valley C430's and Rock Island C430's, but that's one more run.
PRR8259 Of course Paul is right...that's why a few manufacturers are producing the "what if" locos, based upon actual orders that were cancelled. They're trying to wring every dollar they can out of the tooling they have. Maybe they can only sell one run of Lehigh Valley C430's and Rock Island C430's, but that's one more run. John
And who can blame the manufacturers for wanting to recoup tooling costs?
Oddly there are some that had a hissy fit when Atlas did their coil cars lettered for steel companies.I have three of the Armco Steel cars only because I remember Armco Steel's Ashland (Ky)works just East of C&O's Russell yard.
Is a CN Heavyweight Baggage RPO in the 1954 Scheme salable? What about a RI "Rocky Mountain Rocket" Streamliner by Walthers? And make the prices in the $20-30 Dollar Range.
Is the DRGW a popolar road for passenger cars?
Rio Grande is somewhat popular for passenger equipment, and although Walthers just cancelled some cars within the last year for lack of reservations, they and other manufacturers have already done some of it. The California Zephyr cars in CB&Q, DRGW, WP, (and 1 PRR sleeper) have already been offered in multiple runs by BLI and in numerous brass runs.
Sometimes the Palace Car Company brass/nickel plated passenger cars can also be found at prices not that much higher than for the BLI or Walthers cars.