Hi everyone:
I have been slowly working on an old Tyco MDC 4-6-0. (Thanks to doctorwayne for suggesting I had the mfr. wrong). I'm at the point where I can start painting. My question is how to clean the body given that all the lights and wiring are installed, and that there is some modelling putty on the shell? The locomotive is disassembled.
Installing the lights before painting may have been a mistake, but I will plead ignorance. What's done is done.
Can I use regular soap and water, or perhaps isopropyl alcohol, without affecting the wiring? Obviously the body will have to dry for a while to allow the moisture to evaporate from all the crevices.
Second question - can anyone recommend a decent reference for how to paint steam engines? I have a couple old Tyco steam locomotives which I would eventually like to detail and paint. What I basically want to know is what the proper order of assembly and painting is. In other words, with regard to the 4-6-0 specifically, when should I have installed the lighting?
Now that I have let the figurative horse out of the barn on the 4-6-0 I'm thinking I should get some proper information before diving into the other projects. I'd rather not spend a bunch of money on 'how to' books since steam will not be my primary focus.
Thanks as always,
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Hi Dave. Ideally, you should dissasemble the shell to wash all parts. What can happen is that oil can remain inside the shell and bleed out later. I use alcohol, and a tooth brush. I try to do this before the electricals, especially if I'm dealing with metal, that will be blasted and primed, and baked (250 degrees, 15 minutes, shell only). Plastic is more forgiving. You can wash with alcohol with or without the wiring in place, it won't harm it. Be careful, you might get the steam bug like I did... will you post a picture?
Simon
I'm not familiar with that particular locomotive, Dave, but I assume that it's mostly plastic, perhaps with some metal details. If the loco is painted, factory-applied or otherwise, alcohol may affect the paint, but otherwise, dish detergent and water, or alcohol are suitable for cleaning prior to painting. Neither will affect the wiring or lighting.Since I've seen your question asked a number of times, I put my painting procedure for locomotives into a Word document.
This procedure works well for me, but it certainly isn't the only way to accomplish the task - use or ignore all or parts of it as you wish.
MY PROCEDURE FOR PAINTING STEAM LOCOMOTIVESBefore painting anything, it should be clean and free of grease, oil, fingerprints, dust, fuzz, and hair. I usually disassemble the loco as necessary, but except for the motor, everything goes into the sink with hot(ish) water and liquid dish detergent. The main areas to be careful are the insulated drivers and, occasionally, insulated tender, lead, and trailing trucks. The insulation, especially on brass locomotives, is often a paper-type product and shouldn’t be left in the water more than a few minutes. Other than that, you can let it soak for a while, then rinse well and allow to air dry, preferably overnight.For painting steam locomotives, I use either Floquil or PollyScale paints, applied with an airbrush. If you prefer another brand of paint, follow that manufacturer’s recommendations regarding thinners and the amount to use, along with their suggestions on the proper spraying pressure. I like to mix three or four shades of black, starting with Engine Black. For the cab and tender body, I lighten it slightly with the addition of some Roof Brown and Grey Primer. Some of this “lightened black” is further lightened by the addition of more Roof Brown and Grey Primer, which is used on the boiler, smoke box front, pilot, cylinders, appliances (pumps, compressors, etc.) and tender deck. An oily black is created by adding Roof brown and Platinum Mist to Engine Black , suitable for the running gear and frames of both loco and tender. Finally, for the smoke box and firebox, I use Engine Black, with Roof Brown, Grey Primer, and a little Reefer Orange and/or Caboose Red.Here are the paint proportions which I use:CAB & TENDER:5 parts Engine Black1 part Roof Brown1 part Grey PrimerBOILER, SMOKEBOX FRONT, & APPLIANCES:3 parts Engine Black1 part Roof Brown1 part Grey PrimerSMOKEBOX & FIREBOX:1 part Engine Black3 parts Roof Brown1 part Grey PrimerPlus a little Reefer Orange and/or Caboose Red to suitFRAME & RUNNING GEAR:4 parts Engine Black1 part Roof Brown1 part Platinum MistI almost always pre-paint some parts of the running gear using a brush, especially the frame, drivers, and rods and valve gear. Much of this can be done without disassembly, but don’t hesitate to disassemble if necessary. Most of these areas are tough to cover using spray only - the spray will eventually get in all those tight spots, but meanwhile, the adjacent areas will receive too much paint. When this pre-painting has fully dried, re-assemble the loco into sub-assemblies: running gear (frame, drivers, rods and valve gear), superstructure (boiler and cab), tender body, tender floor and frame, and tender trucks, lead, and trailing trucks. I usually remove or mask the motor, and disengage the worm from the worm gear - this allows the loco’s chassis to be rolled back and forth in your spray booth, ensuring even coverage of the drivers and other moving parts. Yes, I said brush paint them first, but this overspraying evens-out the finish. Other than axle bearings, which are fairly-well shielded by the drivers and frame, I purposely do not lubricate any of the other moving parts, such as the side rods and valve gear. This is because the oil quickly migrates to areas which you intend to paint (see Step 1). After the paint has dried but is not yet fully hardened, roll (or run) the loco back and forth a few times - this will remove paint from any bearing surfaces. After the paint has fully cured (a minimum of 24 hours) you can lube all these moving parts as required. When airbrushing, the colours are applied to the loco (dis-assembled to whatever degree necessary) without masking, although I do use a card or piece of paper to shield adjacent areas, as required, switching back and forth between colours, as necessary, as I paint.On areas such as the smoke box and firebox, where pipes or handrails run across (but not touching) these hot surfaces, use a suitably-sized brush to touch up the colour to match that of the other pipes or railings. The same goes for any appliances, such as feed water heaters, which would have been painted. After the paint has cured for several days, it’s ready for lettering. I generally use dry transfers, so no clear coat is required on the flat Floquil paints. When using decals, I airbrush all of the area to be decaled with a fairly shiny semi-gloss finish - usually the cab sides, tender sides and rear, and air tanks and cylinders if they’re to receive lettering for test data. This finish, of course, is allowed to harden fully before applying the decals.Once the loco has been lettered, all areas which previously received a gloss coat for decal work get another gloss coat - this gives a uniform finish to the area, as the gloss of a newly-applied decal isn’t necessarily the same gloss as the surface upon which it’s applied. When that has fully cured, I apply various clear finishes, again, applied without masking. The cab and tender sides and rear get a spray of fairly shiny semi-gloss, while the boiler, smoke box front, pilot, cylinders, and appliances receive a coat of “less-shiny” semi-gloss. An even flatter semi-gloss is applied to the running gear and frames of the loco and tender. The tender deck and interior of the coal bunker get an overspray of Dullcote, while the firebox and smoke box get no clear coat, as, to my eye, the dead flat finish of Floquil gives the effect that I want.I usually re-assemble the running gear, then lightly weather it and the bottom of the boiler before re-assembling the entire locomotive and tender. I don’t weather my locos too heavily, so I usually also install any window glass and headlight and marker lenses at this time, but if you like heavy weathering, it may be best to leave the glass and lenses until after weathering.For weathering colours, I again use Floquil, mixed to whatever I think looks appropriate: I usually use at least four or five different colours or shades of colours, and all are thinned, using lacquer thinner, about 70% to 90%. It’s much easier to build up layers of different colours than it is to try to remove “too much”. For “soot” along the boiler top and cab roof, straight Engine Black, thinned severely, works well for me. The running gear is weathered with the loco moving in the spray booth, either under its own power or pushed by hand, with the motor disengaged. After the loco has been weathered to your satisfaction, don’t ruin it by applying Dullcote over the entire model - the contrast in the finishes between the weathered and unweathered areas is one of the things that contributes to making your weathering look realistic.
A few of examples:
Wayne
Thank you everyone for your replies.
Wayne, I'm going to have to read your instructions a few times before it all sinks in. I'll have to buy some more paint jars for my air brush because I only have two currently. Thanks for the detailed tutorial.
FYI the locomotive body is all metal. The cab is plastic.
I'm trying to loosely mimic this Grand Trunk locomotive:
I moved the motor back so that it drives the middle drivers instead of the front ones. That was to create more 'air space' under the boiler. I filled out the bottom of the boiler and I added a bit of height to the smoke stack and the sand dome. The tender has been back dated a bit too.
I'm not making any claims of accuracy. The boiler is too big for one thing. Did anybody notice that there is an air tank on the tender that doesn't belong?
I can't say that I've ever seen that Tyco loco, Dave, although it's very reminiscent of the Varney "Casey Jones" 10 Wheeler, as seen HERE. Varney used the same boiler casting for their "Old Lady" Consolidation, too.
Model Die Casting also offered a 10 Wheeler, and it has some similarities to your loco, and the tender is close to yours, too:
Other than the boiler diameter, I think that you've done a nice job of capturing the profile of the prototype. For metal locos, or ones made of various materials, including add-on detail parts in brass, white metal, or plastic, I like to use a primer before painting - it helps the dissimilar materials to accept the paint more uniformly. Floquil's Gray Primer was my favourite, but I just recently used the last of my supply. A good, non-filler type auto primer might be an option.
Size-wise, at least, the loco shown in the first photo of my link is probably closer in appearance to your prototype - if you think that it could be of any use, contact me.
I don't know if the air tank on the tender is prototypical for Grand Trunk or not, but some roads did place them there. I do like the spoked tender wheels, though, and they match the prototype.I have a photo (in a book) of sister locomotive 319, still with its spoked wheels on the lead truck and those the tender. It later went on to become CNR 1583, but the 320 was scrapped in October of 1931.Precision Scale offers spoked wheelsets suitable for lead trucks - I'm using them on several CNR locos currently awaiting re-building.
Wayne:
I stand corrected. I just pulled out the TYCO box I thought was for the 4-6-0 and discovered that it is for a 2-6-2 which I had totally forgotten about. The 2-6-2 was buried at the back of my display tracks, and it indeed does have a plastic body.
That caused me to have a closer look at the 4-6-0 and lo and behold the letters MDC are on the bottom of the frame. I'll fix my original post.
As far as the air tank(s), I have also installed them below the cab. I'm guessing that the real thing would have had tanks either below the cab or on the tender, but not both. If so, I'll have to correct that.
I managed to get spoked wheels for the front truck as well as the tender quite some time ago. I think they were NWSL but I'm not sure. NWSL doesn't seem to carry them any more, or at least I couldn't find them the last time I looked.
Thanks again Wayne!
The wiring and the lamp will survive immersion in hot soapy water so long as you dry things out properly. Years ago we used to wash the electronic pre amplifiers for Tektronix oscilloscopes in hot soapy water, dry them in the hot sun, and they all worked better. Washing the chassis crud off brought the high frequency response back into spec. Didn't hurt a thing. The only thing I would not immerse is the electric motor.
Is this locomotive plastic or diecast metal? Makes a difference in surface prep. Step one is degreasing, paint won't stick to grease. Hot soapy water works well. So does alcohol. I would not use any solvent more active than alcohol (which is most of 'em) lest it eat plastic parts. Grease comes from finger prints, motor oil, gear lube, and mold parting compound. Once clean, don't touch it with your bare hands, they leave fingerprints which show thru the paint.
For a diecast metal locomotive, you need to pickle the metal, soak it in a mild acid to etch the surface and give the paint some tooth to bond to. I use supermarket vinegar. An hour is long enough. Follow up with a serious rinse in clean water to wash away the acid. Dry thoroughly. For diecast metal, your first coat should be Krylon or Rustoleum dark gray auto primer in a rattle can. Paint doesn't like to stick to metal. The rattle can auto primers have the best stick-to-metal chemistry the industry can whip up. The model paint "primer" isn't as good in that department.
To my eye, the dark gray auto primer is just the right color for a steamer. It's flat, lighter in color than engine black, and looks just like a steamer that has been out running on the road for a few hours. Steamers poured soot out the stack, the soot settled all over the engine (and everything else) and gave a flat, dark gray color. All of these examples are done in dark gray auto primer.
This is dark gray auto primer on a die cast metal Mantua model.
This is a brass PFM model from way back.
And a plastic AHM Berkshire, also an oldie.
The light gray on the smoke boxes is just light gray auto primer. Far as I can tell, Krylon and Rustoleum work fine. I'm not so sure about other brands.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
David:
Nice work!
Thanks for your advice. The boiler is white metal and the cab is plastic. I put some pictures of it in a previous post in this thread.
I have been doing some thinking about what colour(s) to use and I have decided to do the locomotive in semi-gloss black. I'm modelling the late 50s so the engine would only still be in existence at that time if it was a restoration doing tourist duty. If you scroll up a few posts you can see a picture of the prototype. It looks to be brand new. Everything is still pretty shiny and the black is the same colour throughout, so thats how I am going to do it.
Steamers were in regular service thru most of the 1950's. For instance, the Boston and Maine did not retire it's last steamer until 1957. Going with a semigloss black will give you a straight-out-of-the-wash-rack look. I would consider going with a dark gray instead of pure black. Under layout lighting, never as bright as real sunlight, the pure black tends to hide details. The dark gray looks pretty black under indoor lighting and shows detail better.
Hi David:
I remember the very end of the steam era even though I was only five years old in 1959. What I remember most were the dozens of steam engines that were lined up at the Allandale yards, just south of Barrie, Ontario, headed for the cutter's torch.
Doctorwayne mentioned that Grand Trunk #320 was actually scrapped in 1931 so it was obviously a fairly early steamer. That's why I have chosen the 'restored' approach for the late 1950s.
Thanks for the suggestion to use dark gray instead of straight black. I'm still undecided on that but I'm leaning towards mostly black to get the look of a very clean engine. I think the semi-gloss finish will highlight the details too.
The photo of the original does show some colour variations on some of the details. The top of the air compressor appears to be a medium gray, as does some of the piping. The smoke box and the ash pan appear to be slightly lighter in colour and less glossy too.
I'll be taking the (painting) plunge this week so I will be able to show the outcome sometime soon.
I am finally going to take a stab at painting my 4-6-0.
I have read your post describing your painting process several times but I have one question:
How do you clean the wheel treads after airbrushing them? I know that they will not be sprayed directly, but some paint must end up on them. How do you remove that paint to re-establish good electrical contact with the track, or is there a way to mask the treads and flanges?
Thanks,
I have two tricks for cleaning wheels after painting. Trick 1. Do the regular wheel clean, Goo-Gone on a rag, laid on the track. Give the locomotive enough juice to spin the wheels, slide the spinning wheels over the damp rag. This often does the trick.
If GooGone doesn't work, put a wire brush in your Dremel and buff the metal treads with it.
For cleaning wheel treads (the drivers, at least) I hook power leads to the motor, then, with the locomotive upside down and running, touch a brush loaded with lacquer thinner to the tread, and, after a rotation or two, hold a rag or paper towel to the still-wet tread. Depending on how much paint needs to be removed, repeat as necessary. For tender wheels and those on lead- or trailing trucks, use your fingers to rotate one wheel on each axle as you perform the cleaning operation on the other wheel on the same axle. The lacquer thinner works with all types of paint.It's not difficult to mask the wheel treads: lay a strip of masking tape, sticky-side-down, on a sheet of glass or other smooth surface, and use a sharp blade and straightedge to slice-off strips of suitable width. As I write, it strikes me that this would be quite suitable for all non-powered wheels, and will probably use that method on subsequent projects. However, for the drivers, I believe the lacquer thinner method best, as you can airbrush the drivers and running gear while the loco is sitting on a length of powered track in your spray booth. With the drivers turning, all visible surfaces can be painted easily. Of course, you could also remove the motor and simply push the loco back and forth as you spray....I guess masking all wheel treads will work fine, too. The foregoing, as a note of explanation, reveals why some of my replies to various threads go on to a point where many don't bother reading them: alternate methods pop into my head (lotsa available room, I guess ) as I write, and sometimes I think that they're worth mentioning.
It may be too late to mention it, or you may or may not be worried about it, but your locomotive's stack should be centred over the middle of the cylinders - on the real locomotive, it's supposed to line-up with the exhaust nozzle from the valves/cylinders.
Also in the realm of "too late", I hope that it's not too late for me to thank Simon for his very kind remarks. I can only guess that he posted while I was composing my lengthy response, and I failed to notice his very generous and very much appreciated comments.
Hi Wayne:
Thanks for your suggestions.
I can't get the motor out. The screw won't budge and I have applied a lot of force. I seem to recall using CA to make sure the motor stayed in place and apparently some of it got into the threads However, since all the DCC stuff is in the tender and I have already installed plugs between the locomotive and the tender, I can easily hook up DC power to give the wheels a spin.
doctorwayneIt may be too late to mention it, or you may or may not be worried about it, but your locomotive's stack should be centred over the middle of the cylinders - on the real locomotive, it's supposed to line-up with the exhaust nozzle from the valves/cylinders.
It's not too late to fix the location of the cylinders. Actually the locomotive wasn't screwed together when I took the photo. Obviously I hadn't taken the time to line up the screw holes. None the less, I didn't know about the physical relationship between the stack and the cylinders. Thanks for that information.
I am going to politely ignore your paint colour recommendations, not because I disagree with them, but because I want the locomotive to look like a shiney, well maintained museum piece. You mentioned that the prototype was scrapped in 1931. That's almost 30 years before my era so the only way to justify it being on my layout on a regular basis is to do it as a tourist train. I still have to get some suitable passenger cars.
All the best,
Thanks for your suggestions. As I mentioned in my reply to doctorwayne, it will be easy to apply DC power so I can clean the drivers. The leading truck and tender wheels I can paint with a brush.
As for the colour, I'm less concerned about seeing the details (I'll know they are there) and more interested in what the first impressions of the locomotive will be. For the main body, frame and running gear I really like TrueLine Trains Warm Black. It is definitely 'black'. I am going to do the sides of the smoke box in TrueLine Trains Black (as opposed to Warm Black) because there is just enough of a difference in the colours that the smoke box will look like the paint has been exposed to some heat. I will do the ash pan area in a very dark gray even though detail in that area is non existant.
Thanks again,
Dave,
Best of luck on the project. I find painting locos to be lots of work but oddly satisfying. I use alcohol on a q-tip works to remove acrylic paint from the treads of wheels after they have been painted.
One other thing to consider is how black you want the loco to appear. Many people find that a jet black loco doesn't read well under layout lights. Notice Wayne's formulas add lighter colors in the mix. You might experiment a bit to get the right degree of darkness in the finished product.
Have fun,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Hey Guy:
I definitely want the loco to appear 'jet black'. I'm just about ready to put the first coat of TrueLine's Warm Black on the body. Once that is done, and I put a coat of Glosscote over it, I will have a better idea of whether or not it is the colour I want.