Wow Ulrich! that was great! Some one on a different thread that Ed started about "throttles that look like throttles" had mentioned a system that puts you in the engineers seat.
Mike.
My You Tube
I agree with the whole "Not everyone models the 1950's". I tried to model the Pennsy in the steam era, but I just couldn't connect with it... so I went to Norfolk Southern since I've grown up with the Black Throrroughbreads and Conrail blue... I just wasn't feeling a connection there either. So eventually after searching around, I found a railroad that fit my wants- smaller, older roster, an interesting route through my area, and modern era- Thus my fascination with modeling the Wheeling and Lake Erie was born.
I'm 24, and know about 6 others my age who model railroad, 2 are in a seperate club, 1 is in a club up the road, one doesn't have time to belong to a club,etc.... Plus the model railroading groups on facebook are FILLED with members younger than 30,heck, younger than 20!
(My Model Railroad, My Rules)
These are the opinions of an under 35 , from the east end of, and modeling, the same section of the Wheeling and Lake Erie railway. As well as a freelanced road (Austinville and Dynamite City railroad).
One of the posters to this thread stated, that the younger folks do not only look for the cheap and cheerful stuff, but for the more upmarket products as well. While good quality, reasonably priced models make entering the hobby much easier, it´ll be the high tech stuff which will attract the younger, more tech savvy folks to the hobby.
Roco has presented a new toy for those folks - a "train cam", which, in combination with their Z21 DCC command station and a Smart Phone or tablet PC will offer you completely new insights:
This is awesome - and a lot more than just a digi cam installed in a loco!
Steven Otte Am I gonna have to merge this with The Obligatory "This Hobby Is So Expensive" Thread? I've heard people publicly mourning the imminent death of model railroading since I started reading about the hobby in the 1970s. Trust me, when the hobby goes belly-up, you'll be the first ones we inform. Until then, take any "reporting" on the topic from outlets that can't tell the difference between a Climax and a Shay with a covered hopper full of salt.
Am I gonna have to merge this with The Obligatory "This Hobby Is So Expensive" Thread?
I've heard people publicly mourning the imminent death of model railroading since I started reading about the hobby in the 1970s. Trust me, when the hobby goes belly-up, you'll be the first ones we inform. Until then, take any "reporting" on the topic from outlets that can't tell the difference between a Climax and a Shay with a covered hopper full of salt.
Make that a 125 car unit train of salt and I'll second that.
Andre
Can't blame me this time, I made my comments early and moved on......
Sheldon
I would love to see this thread get merged with the obligatory cost is high thread. It seems to be covering the same issues here.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Amen to that - just to make the 100 posts to this thread complete
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
jecorbettThis is why I am perfectly happy with Accurail and their molded on details. That fine details is way too fragile. I'll buy a high end car if it is at a sale price but the bulk of my freight car fleet is Accurail, Athearn BB and RTR, and Atlas. All of them get KD couplers and I upgrade the wheels on Accurail. They all meet my "good enough" standard.
The majority of my freight cars is BB and Roundhouse since I model close enough/good enough..
If I was young and just starting I would buy nothing less then the highly detailed cars and locomotives. Probably 2-3 engines and 50-60 cars.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
richhotrain I once owned a state of the art freight car, an EJ&E coil car by Red Caboose. It was not mean for human hands and fingers. I lost or broke so many parts on that car that I eventually dumped it in the garbage. Rich
I once owned a state of the art freight car, an EJ&E coil car by Red Caboose. It was not mean for human hands and fingers. I lost or broke so many parts on that car that I eventually dumped it in the garbage.
Rich
This is why I am perfectly happy with Accurail and their molded on details. That fine details is way too fragile. I'll buy a high end car if it is at a sale price but the bulk of my freight car fleet is Accurail, Athearn BB and RTR, and Atlas. All of them get KD couplers and I upgrade the wheels on Accurail. They all meet my "good enough" standard.
dknelson I'd add Kadee to the list of state of the art freight cars. Having just added a bunch of details, and better wheels, to a regular commercial freight car offering, and tallying up the final cost of said details, the so-called "state of the art" freight cars while "expensive" might not actually be expensive if that makes any sense. Dave Nelson
I'd add Kadee to the list of state of the art freight cars. Having just added a bunch of details, and better wheels, to a regular commercial freight car offering, and tallying up the final cost of said details, the so-called "state of the art" freight cars while "expensive" might not actually be expensive if that makes any sense.
Dave Nelson
Dave,When comparing street prices between the Walthers,Athearn (RTR),Bachmann(Silver) and Trainman cars there isn't much difference in prices. In fact I seen some IM cars cheaper then Walthers Main Line cars.
Yeah,One doesn't manhandle those cars like a old BB or Roundhouse car..Place 'em on the rails and let them be. I have several of those state of the art cars and I use a KD magnet for uncoupling.
Even some of the Athearn RTR FMC boxcars I bought new came with their steps laying in the car's tray. These are the former Roundhouse 50' FMC boxcars that comes with fragile steps.
Alton Junction
richhotrain But, a state of the art freight car? What the heck is that? And, you buy it at a train show? Tell me more. Rich
Rich,State of the art is Atlas Master,ExactRail,Tangent,Athearn/ Genesis,BLMA,Red Caboose and Intermountain..These can be had for $23-35.00 at most shows and I dare say not that much more the Athearn, Walthers or Trainman cars.
Other then ExactRail these cars can be purchase at the better train shows. What that means is the shows that has dealers that sells quality models..
Sir Madog
Isn't that the truth!!!
Paul
Everyone keeps harping un "unreasonable prices" Really? 20 years ago, a DCC motor only decoder that could maybe operate 2 lights and buzzed horribly when it ran was $50 or more. For little more today, you get a SOUND decoder that can run 6 functions and has baby bottom smooth motor drive. You can;t even really get the buzzy kind of decoder any more, but a plain motor decoder with 2 functions is $15 or less.
There's this fallacy that because cell phones use radio, if we make all our trains radio, it will cost less because they can use the same parts. No, they don't use the same parts. At least not the most costly parts. One of the most costly parts of any sort of radio system that the manufacture must recoup is the cost of FCC certification in the US, and whatever agency governs radio communications in any other country they want to sell their stuff in. It doesn't work where the radio chip is certified in a phone so you can build it into your own device and it's automatically good, nope.
Some things have come down due to bulk use in consumer electronics - that's why decoders ARE cheaper these days. The little microcontrollers that are the heart of them are only a few dollars in single quantities, instead of $20-$30 like they used to be. That's why even the simplest toys and gadgets have some sort of microcontroller in them, it's cheaper to use a micro to make some LEDs flash than it is to build a traditional LED flashing circuit.
Other prices have gone up because labor costs continue to rise, and also the detail level has gone way up. No one really sells any locos at the BB level of detail any more, so there is nothing to directly compare price levels against. ANd kits have gone away for 2 reasons. People weren't buying them (and don't just reply "But I like to build kits" So do I, but OBVIOUSLY we are the minority in the hobby today), plus if a manufacturer can pay say $5 per $10 kit to have it assembled in CHina and then sell it for $30 (vs the $10 kit price) PLUS no longer have to deal with supporting people who can't figure out how to assemble it, or supplying a spare sprue of grab irons because the customer lost it or broke them in assembly, you'd have to be a pretty poor businessman to not jump on that. If a company is going to stay afloat and produce more of the highly detailed models (which take extra research) people are demanding, then they need to have a large enough profit margin to support the research and development of the new tooling. Too many modelers today want more than a basic generic BB boxcar, they want road specific details. And with the time factor, they don;t have the time to add those details themselves, they want the product to come with all that stuff taken care of. Obviously that is not EVERYONE in the model railroad hobby, but if it weren't a large enough money-spending portion of it then none of this would happen. If the people don't want to pay the price for your detailed RTR model and only want kits, you aren't going to stay in business making the expensive RTR models, but clearly the market has spoken and it's the low cost kit buyers who are the minority. No one says you have to like it, but it is what it is.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
BRAKIE Have you seen the models the younger modelers are buying at train shows? They're not buying BB or Bachmann they are buying the DCC/Sound locomotives and state of the art freight cars.
Have you seen the models the younger modelers are buying at train shows? They're not buying BB or Bachmann they are buying the DCC/Sound locomotives and state of the art freight cars.
I don't attend train shows, so I cannot challenge that statement, Larry. But, a state of the art freight car? What the heck is that? And, you buy it at a train show? Tell me more.
azrailI see several problems which may be damaging the hobby.... No reasonably priced, quality trains/ train sets... Electronic gadgetry has gone up in performance and down in price, yet model train prices keep going up. DCC is still confusing to the newbie, and it is still a confusing, unreliable system- even when you read the books on it. If you want to go after the youth market, we need to be pushing towards radio control-free of wires and depending on two strips of poorly conductive metal. The situation of depending on almost all of our model trains on a handful of factories run by a consortium in a country that is challenging our military power, steals our secrets, and abuses its citizens. There are other places in the world we can make model trains.
Ulrich and Larry took a short excerpt from azrail's reply and challenged it. Fair enough.
But azrail makes several valid points. Prices are unreasonably high, a source of discouragement for many would be modelers. DCC is very confusing for newbies. Heck, it can still be confusing for more advanced modelers. I love DCC, but it isn't easy to work with by any means. And, we would all be better off if we returned to Made in the USA.
azrailNo reasonably priced, quality trains/ train sets... Electronic gadgetry has gone up in performance and down in price, yet model train prices keep going up.
My oldest grandson won't even consider buying BB or Bachmann.He's 100% Atlas,Walthers P2K,Genesis and Kato. He uses DCC and locks out the DC function in the decoder.
azrailDCC is still confusing to the newbie, and it is still a confusing, unreliable system
What´s confusing about feeding two wires to the track and selecting a loco address? Your mobile phone is much more complicated to operate. DCC is around for over 20 years now and it is very reliable. DCC (w/o sound) adds only very little to the cost of an engine and a good quality entry level DCC system does not cost much more than a good quality DC power pack these days.
I don´t think that´s the reason why supposedly there seems to be no next generation model railroaders. IMHO, we have only a view from a very narrow perspective as "serious MRR´s" to the hobby. I bet there are quite a few people (adults and kids) out there, who have a layout of some sort and enjoy it, but see it as a toy to have fun with rather than a lifestyle, as we tend to see it.
Da Stumer I'm in my early teens, so there are some young people in the hobby. My problem is that new stuff is just so darn expensive! I haven't purchased anything new for a while now, expect for a limited run locomotive. That is why I resort to old mantua and red box Tyco, as well as older bb athearns, all dc. I can't afford to pay 20-30 on one freight car, especially since I don't really have an income yet. Just my 3 cents :D
I'm in my early teens, so there are some young people in the hobby. My problem is that new stuff is just so darn expensive! I haven't purchased anything new for a while now, expect for a limited run locomotive. That is why I resort to old mantua and red box Tyco, as well as older bb athearns, all dc. I can't afford to pay 20-30 on one freight car, especially since I don't really have an income yet. Just my 3 cents :D
And twenty years ago when I was in my early teens, coming up with the $10 for one of those BBs was a Herculean task too.
I remember that I'd lusted for a Bachman Niagara that (I think) was $60. An insurmountable sum of money!
-Peter. Mantua collector, 3D printing enthusiast, Korail modeler.
It seems to me that a common theme on these boards is "I played with trains as a kid, discovered girls, put the trainset away. Thirty to forty years later the kids have finally left home, I have some space and a little disposable income. I'm back." The next common theme is that "I remember a train coming past my house / end of my street / blah blah and I'd like to model that train"
Now as more and more people survive to get old that rather means that there is a potentially growing market of old farts with cash to spend. Walthers couldn't care less whether the guy at the other end of the internet is 14 or 64 as long as he wants to buy their latest kit. So as long as new entrants of whatever age outnumber the die off the hobby is safe.
Now given the "recapture trains of my youth" is a recurring meme and the current generation of new elderly entrants were probably kids in the Seventies and Eighties those trains might be the growth area.
Metro Red LineWhat bothered me about the article was that although it's true the average age of model railroaders is past retirement age, it seemed to give the impression that ALL model railroaders are only interested in re-creating the 1950s. Of COURSE young people can't connect with this, it's so foreign to them. As a modern-era modeler, younger people might be more responsive to the contemporary freight, passenger and commuter trains that exist today, which railfans see all the time. Yes, I know that most modelers live the Transition Era, but I've always loved the challenge of "modeling what I see," even when it means my favorite railroad growing up got bought by another railroad, and I have to model that one. Surely a family that took an Amtrak trip might have a kid who wants an Amtrak train.Yes, all you old-timers will think that's so boring, but remember, today's trains are the "trains I grew up with" for another generation.
Absolutely.. I have even read on forums where modelers say "Today's railroads isn't interesting". I call that the battle cry of the unlearned.
I started railfaning when I was seven and seen new GP9s and RS11 and in the 60s I saw GP30s,SD45s and U25Bs then years later seen new SD40-2s and later new SD70MACs. Every new model of locomotive was exciting.
Even today watching a GP38-2 switch cars is just as exciting as watching a PRR 0-6-0 switch back in the 50s.
I get excited when a trio of D9-44CWs vibrate the ground when starting a heavy tonnage freight train.
HObbyguy No problem for me reading the article or watching the video. I hear the same thing about other hobbies that I pursue. I also restore classic Pontiac musclecars. Go to a classic car show and you will find most owners are in their late 50's and up, and they are saying the same thing. "Nobody works on their own cars anymore and develops the skills needed, etc." No doubt part of it is the expense- hobbies are expensive and financing a real model railroad with the space it requires isn't in the cards for most younger folks. Same for classic cars. And part of it is just the changing times. Young people don't relate the world the same way we do, and don't have the same feeling of nostalgia for days gone by. But I like to think that there will always be "builders" who will want to create and operate something. It may take on a different form, but that's OK.
No problem for me reading the article or watching the video.
I hear the same thing about other hobbies that I pursue. I also restore classic Pontiac musclecars. Go to a classic car show and you will find most owners are in their late 50's and up, and they are saying the same thing. "Nobody works on their own cars anymore and develops the skills needed, etc."
No doubt part of it is the expense- hobbies are expensive and financing a real model railroad with the space it requires isn't in the cards for most younger folks. Same for classic cars.
And part of it is just the changing times. Young people don't relate the world the same way we do, and don't have the same feeling of nostalgia for days gone by.
But I like to think that there will always be "builders" who will want to create and operate something. It may take on a different form, but that's OK.
You've hit on it. It isn't just model railroading, it's ALL hobbies. Times have changed greatly. When I was growing up, my Mom didn't have to work, she stayed at home with me and my sister. And my Dad didn't work in some super high paying job - he was a welder. But we had a house, a car, color TV, a pool, and many hobbies - camping, fishing, shooting, cb radio, and model trains. None of them particularly cheap hobbies. Now it's different. Granted I have my house with pool and nice car all on just my own salary, but I make 10x what my Dad did back then, and my hobbies are pretty much limited to my trains. There are other sthings I used to do that I would like to do again, but then I have to balance it out and either get into another expensive hobby and drop trains, or stick with the trains and forego the others. Mostly I stick with trains, it's the one thing I've always come back to when I've abandoned it in the past. I can't imagine doing all the things I did as a kid on just what I make.