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Gauntlet Spur

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Posted by DSchmitt on Sunday, January 24, 2016 11:02 PM
Posted by ricktrains4824 on Sunday, January 24, 2016 8:14 PM

It would simply not work.

 

Actually it would work.  Railroads do have crossovers between double track mains. and also sidings on double track mains. The only difference between this arangement and a spur accessed by a switchback is that here the tail of the switchback is a Gauntlet.  I do not know if the Gauntlet arangement was ever used, but the switchback arangement (although not ideal) certainly is and was where necessary to serve a valued customer.

This example is from the early 1900's when double track lines had a designated direction for each track and if signalized, were signaled for that direction.   There are procedures to authorize trains to run opposite the designated traffic flow on a track.   

Even on lines with heavy traffic, railroads can find or make time windows for switching operations. 

Today many (perhaps most) double track mains are signaled for bi-directional operation on both tracks.  The Dispatcher choses which track a particular train runs on to make the most efficient use of the facilities regardless of direction of travel.

 

 

I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.

I don't have a leg to stand on.

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Posted by mbinsewi on Sunday, January 24, 2016 9:35 PM

OK, I had to take a few more looks, and what I missed, is the there are no points to access the gauntlet track on the right hand side of the switch, only on the left does the gauntlet track rejoin the main with points,  so a train moving in the direction of the arrow, would have no points to cross, just the second frog.

So to access the gauntlet spur, the loco would have to shove past the gauntlet spur, than access the gauntlet via the points on the left, and pull back on the gauntlet track to the spur switch.

Mike.

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Posted by ricktrains4824 on Sunday, January 24, 2016 8:14 PM

It would simply not work.

Still a facing point turnout, but now, once you have pulled the car with the locomotive, you now have a locomotive trapped behind the car, with zero run-around, and zero chance of having a double tracked main line tied up with a local running against traffic, or having a restricted speed train with a car first move, holding up traffic on a clearly busy corridor, as it was double tracked, and traffic blocked for one way mains, because this facing point turnout is now on a gauntlet track, trapping the locomotive.

You would need either a trailing point turnout, or a crossover to allow a trailing point move from the other main.

Either option rules out this gauntlet track. It simply would not work, nor would ever be used in real life as depicted.

And the never work is why it will never be on my layout.

Ricky W.

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My Railroad rules:

1: It's my railroad, my rules.

2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.

3: Any objections, consult above rules.

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, January 24, 2016 5:34 PM

last mountain & eastern hogger

Whistling

Rich,

The mainline is the black tracks,  the Gauntlet and spur are the red tracks.

Johnboy out.........

 

Thanks, Johnboy.

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, January 24, 2016 5:29 PM

Steven S

Here it is.   The gauntlet is right in the middle of the mainline.

 

Steve S

 

aha, I did not see that before. Thanks, Steve.

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by last mountain & eastern hogger on Sunday, January 24, 2016 10:33 AM

Whistling

Rich,

The mainline is the black tracks,  the Gauntlet and spur are the red tracks.

Johnboy out.........

from Saskatchewan, in the Great White North.. 

We have met the enemy,  and he is us............ (Pogo)

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Posted by Steven S on Sunday, January 24, 2016 10:30 AM

Here it is.   The gauntlet is right in the middle of the mainline.

 

Steve S

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, January 24, 2016 10:00 AM

mbinsewi

OK, I see it.

Mike.

 

I don't. What am I missing? Where is the gauntlet? It looks like a simple spur off the mainline.  I am confused.

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by mbinsewi on Sunday, January 24, 2016 9:19 AM

OK, I see it.

Mike.

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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, January 24, 2016 8:59 AM

mbinsewi

Google Gauntlet track, and you'll see many examples.  There was a dissussion on this a couple years ago in here.  The way I see it, there is a point on each end, to control access to the gauntlet, and the frog is actually on the gauntlet track, allowing the main line train to run through without actually passing over switch with a frog.

Mike.

 

Mike,

There are only points on the left hand side and on the guantlet itself.  Click on the photo and go to full size.  The reason is to elimiate facing point turnouts on the main line (I read the book referenced) because of concern about high speed trains picking the points.  And you still have to have a frog on the main line no matter what (look carefully there are actually 2 frogs).

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Posted by mbinsewi on Sunday, January 24, 2016 8:55 AM

Google Gauntlet track, and you'll see many examples.  There was a dissussion on this a couple years ago in here.  The way I see it, there is a point on each end, to control access to the gauntlet, and the frog is actually on the gauntlet track, allowing the main line train to run through without actually passing over switch with a frog.

Mike.

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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, January 24, 2016 8:41 AM

maxman
 
DSchmitt

 

 
maxman

 

 
DSchmitt
Reason: A facing point switch is required to serve the industry. The main line is double track with trains operated in the direction shown by the arrows. Because of safety concerns, the railroad does not allow facing point switches to spurs on the main line.

 

There is still a facing point.

 

 

 

True, but the facing point is on the Gauntlet, not on the main line.   The Gauntlet is connected to the main on the left by trailing points.  No connection on the right.

 

 

 

Okay, I enlarged the picture and see what you mean.  So a switchback is created.

No thanks.  I hate those things.  Plus now you'll need a run around somewhere to get the pickup behind the engine

Or you place it between cross overs to/from the other main line so the way freight can cross over, run wrong direction on the main and use it as a trailing point pickup/drop off, and cross back to opposite main line.  Looks like a good project for NMRA achievement program.

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Posted by IRONROOSTER on Saturday, January 23, 2016 5:45 PM

Steven S

 

 ETA:You can download Droege's book here...

https://ia902605.us.archive.org/10/items/freightterminal04droegoog/freightterminal04droegoog.pdf

 

Steve S

 

FYI it's the first edition.

A second editon dated 1925 was reprinted by the NMRA.  The part about this gauntlet is pretty much the same.

Enjoy

Paul

If you're having fun, you're doing it the right way.
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Posted by DSchmitt on Saturday, January 23, 2016 3:44 PM

I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.

I don't have a leg to stand on.

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Posted by maxman on Saturday, January 23, 2016 3:19 PM

DSchmitt

 

 
maxman

 

 
DSchmitt
Reason: A facing point switch is required to serve the industry. The main line is double track with trains operated in the direction shown by the arrows. Because of safety concerns, the railroad does not allow facing point switches to spurs on the main line.

 

There is still a facing point.

 

 

 

True, but the facing point is on the Gauntlet, not on the main line.   The Gauntlet is connected to the main on the left by trailing points.  No connection on the right.

 

Okay, I enlarged the picture and see what you mean.  So a switchback is created.

No thanks.  I hate those things.  Plus now you'll need a run around somewhere to get the pickup behind the engine

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Posted by Steven S on Saturday, January 23, 2016 2:48 PM

DSchmitt
Because of safety concerns, the railroad does not allow facing point switches to spurs on the main line.

 

Ahhh.  So I guess they're afraid that mainline trains might pick the points, so they resort to a trailing-point switch and the gantlet/switchback.  The book by Droege dates to 1912.  I wonder if he based this on an actual prototype. 

 ETA:You can download Droege's book here...

https://ia902605.us.archive.org/10/items/freightterminal04droegoog/freightterminal04droegoog.pdf

The drawing is on page 57 of the PDF file (page 42 of the book.)  No mention of a prototype example, just a hypothetical situation.

Steve S

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Posted by IRONROOSTER on Saturday, January 23, 2016 2:06 PM

maxman

 

 
DSchmitt
Reason: A facing point switch is required to serve the industry. The main line is double track with trains operated in the direction shown by the arrows. Because of safety concerns, the railroad does not allow facing point switches to spurs on the main line.

 

There is still a facing point.

 

No, the right end does not have a set of points.  There are only 2 sets of points, 1 for the gaunlet at the left end and 1 for the turnout itself.  There are 2 frogs as well.

The sketch in Droege's book (referenced above) page 44 provides a clearer drawing.

Interesting, I haven't heard of one of these before.  I wonder if any were ever built.

Enjoy

Paul

If you're having fun, you're doing it the right way.
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Posted by DSchmitt on Saturday, January 23, 2016 2:05 PM

maxman

 

 
DSchmitt
Reason: A facing point switch is required to serve the industry. The main line is double track with trains operated in the direction shown by the arrows. Because of safety concerns, the railroad does not allow facing point switches to spurs on the main line.

 

There is still a facing point.

 

True, but the facing point is on the Gauntlet, not on the main line.   The Gauntlet is connected to the main on the left by trailing points.  No connection on the right.

I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.

I don't have a leg to stand on.

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Posted by maxman on Saturday, January 23, 2016 1:47 PM

DSchmitt
Reason: A facing point switch is required to serve the industry. The main line is double track with trains operated in the direction shown by the arrows. Because of safety concerns, the railroad does not allow facing point switches to spurs on the main line.

There is still a facing point.

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Posted by DSchmitt on Saturday, January 23, 2016 1:44 PM

maxman

I would think that there would need to be a reason for something like that to be built.  Otherwise the simplest method would be used.

 

Reason:

A facing point switch is required to serve the industry.  The main line is double track with trains operated in the direction shown by the arrows.  Because of safety concerns, the railroad does not allow facing point switches to spurs on the main line.

I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.

I don't have a leg to stand on.

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Posted by DSchmitt on Saturday, January 23, 2016 1:43 PM

maxman

I would think that there would need to be a reason for something like that to be built.  Otherwise the simplest method would be used.

 

Reason:

A facing point switch is required to serve the industry.  The main line is double track with trains operated in the direction shown by the arrows.  Because of safety concerns, the railroad does not allow facing pount switches to spurs on the main line.

I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.

I don't have a leg to stand on.

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Posted by sdCowboyBen on Saturday, January 23, 2016 1:37 PM

Wouldn't that be for room to grow or room to move cars around if needed? But convenience sounds a lot better. Since we are not actually at the site there could be a reason we are not thinking of.

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Posted by maxman on Saturday, January 23, 2016 1:28 PM

I would think that there would need to be a reason for something like that to be built.  Otherwise the simplest method would be used.

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Posted by DSchmitt on Saturday, January 23, 2016 12:54 PM

mlehman

Odd that it continues on past the frog to the left. My impression is that these usually relocate the points to a better location, but once past the frog is just the standard two rails. 

 

It's based on a sketch in the book Freight Termimals and Trains by John A. Droege. In the sketch it appears that the gauntlet (4-rails) starts about 1 car length left of the switch.

I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.

I don't have a leg to stand on.

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Posted by gregc on Saturday, January 23, 2016 4:58 AM

greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading

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Posted by mlehman on Saturday, January 23, 2016 2:18 AM

Odd that it continues on past the frog to the left. My impression is that these usually relocate the points to a better location, but once past the frog is just the standard two rails. 

Mike Lehman

Urbana, IL

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Gauntlet Spur
Posted by DSchmitt on Saturday, January 23, 2016 1:20 AM

Anyone model this?

  Gauntlet Spur2_zpsfqb27mob by Donald Schmitt, on Flickr

 

I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.

I don't have a leg to stand on.

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