1950's Era Loco for Heavy Passenger Cars

[ACY Tom]

I've seen photos & heard stories of B&O FA's pulling heavyweight coaches on excursion trains out of Canton, Cleveland, and on the former BR&P. I'm not aware of their use on B&O's premiere passenger trains, but it could have happened, I guess.

If you go for a Pacific, be aware that by the end of the steam era, there were probably no two B&O Pacifics that looked identical. The various P-7's (like the Mantua) had headlights in the centered or elevated position. If you go for a USRA P-5 light Pacific, the headlights were invariably elevated after the 1920's. P-6 details pretty much matched P-5 details except that P-6's had Delta trailing trucks and Vanderbilt tenders. There were numerous other less prominent details that could individualize models of any of these classes.

Tom 

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

Texas Zepher

 

 

7j43k

For those who don't like F units:

Brought to you by Rapido, in living HO.  And it will likely be a beauty.  Two back to back would look stunning!!!

 

 

Yeah they are beauties.  I just can't visualize them on the point of heavy weight passenger cars.

 

 

Well, here in the east, F units pulled lots of heavyweight passengers cars in the late 40's, all through the 50's and into the 60's.

Many eastern roads used large fleets of heavyweights right up until AMTRAK.

Many had been rebuilt and "modernized", but the B&O in particular was very resistant to lightweight passenger cars and only fully imbraced them after the C&O took ownership in 1965.

Keep in mind, eastern roads were also slow to give up the fully painted look in favor of the stainless steel look on passenger cars as well. Even when they did start using stainless lightweight cars, many had painted window bands, or even window bands and letter boards with only the lower part stainless.

Sheldon

[Texas Zepher]

7j43k

For those who don't like F units:

Brought to you by Rapido, in living HO.  And it will likely be a beauty.  Two back to back would look stunning!!!

Yeah they are beauties.  I just can't visualize them on the point of heavy weight passenger cars.

[wjstix]

If you go the Mantua route, note that the later (after about 1990) RTR Pacifics came with a can motor; earlier ones had an open-frame motor. In either case, you'll still need to isolate the motor from the frame for DCC. You could always get one of the DCC ready newer ones from Model Power / MRC.

[sebamat]

Heartland Division CB&Q

To select a locomotive for a B&O passenger train, you may look at images of real trains. Google : "images B&O passenger trains "

Be only conscient that in some occasions a well marketed 'fan train' could have generated a lot more pictures that the everyday's service: the most photografied is possibly more the exception than the routine.

 

seba

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

A few more notes:

The BLI USRA light 4-6-2 lettered B&O would be a good choice - very common to see those pulling locals all over the B&O system from their construction until the late 50's. 

And the cars the OP has are fair enough representaions of a typical B&O local.

Mikados were very common helpers for the Pacifics over the worst grades, specificly the Allegheny Summit west to Ohio, and would be pressed into local passenger service in the mountain divisions when no Pacific was available - All of the B&O Q-4 class Mikes, and most of the Q-3 Mikes had steam heat lines for passenger service.

The BLI "heavy" Pacific is not a correct model of ANYTHING, it does not have the correct 79" driver size, or the correct boiler details of its Erie "prototype". It is a light Pacific chassis with 73" drivers combined with the "generic" BLI USRA heavy Mikado boiler.

The B&O P7, as built, is very similar in specs to the ERIE USRA heavy Pacific. As noted in the photos and info above, the B&O modified and rebuilt the P7's on an almost continual basis. By the end of their life, they were very "modern" steam, despite having been built in 1927.

The passenger equiped GP7's are what replaced those Pacifics on the locals, so that would be the next logical choice.

Also as noted above, steam heat equiped EMD F3's and F7's, and ALCO FA2's served as power on many passenger trains, with the E units generally reserved for the "name trains".

When new, ABBA F3 sets were very commonly seen pulling the heaviest long distance secondary and mail trains over the mountains.

The B&O had a moderate sized fleet of 4-8-2 locos, mostly home built, very powerful, and these did see passenger service from time to time. But for the B&O, the 4-8-2 was largely a fast freight loco - so much so that they never owned a Berkshire (2-8-4) or a Northern (4-8-4)..... 

Sheldon 

[HObbyguy]

One of the first locos that I bought was a Bachman B&O Alco FA2, DCC with sound.  I later picked up one of the matching B unit to run a consist.  The detail is not great and the sound is just OK, but the price is right and they have been very good runners.  If on a budget you can get an A/B pair now for under $200 total and they fit the era.

I also bought a set of three lighted Con-Cor B&O heavyweight cars to pull with the Alcos.  So I am right there with you on that.

Have you run the cars on your layout yet?  18" is going to be tight but if your trackwork is good and you don't have S-curves then you may be OK.  They do fine on my 24" minimum curves but not so good on my Dad's smaller layout.

I have an EM-1 but I think it would look pretty silly pulling just three passenger cars.  You guys are adding a B&O Pacific to my "wish list"

[Da Stumer]

The Tyco era Pacifics are fairly easy to come by, and don't go for too much. I got mine in a box of old trains 25 dollars for the box. Most collections have one of these in it, and are found fairly cheap at most shows. A great puller, and very easy to fix up. All I did was clean off the motor commutators, oil it up, and it was ready to go! Can never go wrong with an old Tyco/Mantua steamer!

[7j43k]

Here's a shot of the "real" Mantua/Tyco Pacific:

 

 

 

 

I'm not at all a con-wa-sure of B&O steam, but I do note the Boxspok drivers and the sanding valve cover below the sand dome.  Both of which appear to come and go on this group of locos (5300-5319)  And I note that the tender has 4 wheel trucks rather than 6.  And is thus likely not as long as on the model.  Also note the heavyweight cars behind

 

Here's a page full of B&O 4-6-2 photos (click on left) including this batch:

 

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/bo_steam5.html

 

 

Ed

 

 Lucky B&O guys!!! 

[ACY Tom]

An EM-1 2-8-8-4? They were used in some limited passenger service, and perhaps troop trains, until EM-1 7625 rolled over while hauling a mail train at Oakland, MD. I don't know the exact date, but I certainly remember the number because the engine was returned to service and I had the privilege of getting into her cab at Holloway, Ohio several years after the accident when she was stored prior to scrapping. Even though the accident was attributed to a broken rail, and not to any actual problem with the engine, EM-1's were not used in passenger service after that. There were a few exception to this when a few EM-1's were used on excursions in the last days of steam.

I know: TMI

As for the Pacifics, TLC Publishing's book "Baltimore & Ohio Pacific Locomotives" by Bob Withers (2013) should give you the background info you need.

Tom

[Heartland Division CB&Q]

To select a locomotive for a B&O passenger train, you may look at images of real trains. Google : "images B&O passenger trains "

You can see B&O used a variety of locomotives to haul passenger trains. With 4 cars a single diesel unit should suffice. 

[tstage]

And the 4-6-2 Pacifics webpage on the steamlocomotive.com website seems to corroborate that.  Thanks, Rick!

Tom

[dti406]

tstage

BLI has heavy & light USRA 4-6-2 Pacifics out in the following road names:

ATSF, B&A, B&O, CN, MILW, MKT, NdeM, NYC, WAB, and unlettered

Here's the direct link:

http://www.broadway-limited.com/paragon2usrapacific4-6-2.aspx

Tom

 

Please note the only USRA Heavy Pacifics were built for the Erie Railroad, all others are foobies!

Rick J

[riogrande5761]

ACY

To the OP:

I note that you have 22 posts to your credit. I'm not sure what that says about your level of experience, but I'm a bit sensitive about that, having just read through the thread on proper treatment of newbies. 

I have found that post count is usually no indication of a persons experience.  More often than not, people may have as much as everyone else in a forum, but for one reason or another, just didn't start an account on this particular forum yet.  I find that to be the case on other forums I am a member of - a new guy comes with a post count of a 1 or a few posts and seems to be just like everyone else in on degree or another.  Most people in train forums have been interested in trains most of thier lives as it usually goes.

To the OP, if you find F units bland, then you may be more interested in steam with their outwardly more complex mechancial appearance - some of the suggestions here probably hit closely on what you are after.  Keep in mind, as a rule, steam costs more per engine too, especially for good quality steam.

[Docjmp]

Thanks for all the information. Tom, you are a wealth of knowledge about B&O and the other Tom, thanks for your website showing how to make exterior light poles. Just what I was looking for.With everyone's help, I've pretty much settled on a 4-6-2. I'm still new enough at model railroading to need to ask a lot of questions. This site and my LHS have been good sources.

[tstage]

BLI has [some] heavy & light [versions of the] USRA 4-6-2 Pacifics out in the following road names:

ATSF, B&A, B&O, CN, MILW, MKT, NdeM, NYC, WAB, and unlettered

Here's the direct link:

http://www.broadway-limited.com/paragon2usrapacific4-6-2.aspx

Tom

[7j43k]

G Paine

 Not that many good B&O steam locos available

 

I think the OP was only looking for one.

 

Ed

[G Paine]

Trainman440

correct me if I'm wrong, but USRA Mikados, or Mikados in general were used in freight, not passenger trains. Charles

Yes, mainly freight but could be used for passenger as well. Not that many good B&O steam locos available

[Mheetu]

I recommend a big B&O EM 1 2-8-8-4

 

[ACY Tom]

Yes, loco types and terrain can be important. B&O's primary passenger power was the Pacific in all territories during the steam-to-diesel transition era. Some 4-8-2's were used as road power or helpers on heavy passenger trains in the mountains, and Mikados were occasionally used in emergencies. But most steam passenger trains in the last years used 4-6-2's, doubleheaded if necessary. I did not discuss all possible classes and types because I am presuming the OP isn't interested in the expense of brass.

Do you have a particular geographic area in mind?

Tom

[tstage]

Rick's post actually raises an important issue worth considering.  What type of terrain will you be modeling, Jim?  Primarily flat?  Piedmont?  Mountains?  That will determine what locomotives would and should be pulling those heavyweights.

Tom

[selector]

Without being railroad specific, the following locomotives have pulled either revenue service or excursion service consists of heavyweight passenger cars at one time or another:

2-6-2

2-8-0

2-8-2

2-8-4

2-10-2

2-10-4

4-4-2

4-4-4

4-6-2

4-6-4

4-8-2

4-8-4

4-10-2 (probably, maybe, only once...?)

4-12-2

2-6-6-4

2-6-6-6

4-4-4-4

4-6-6-4

Pretty confident that an Big Boy pulled a passenger train, if only once...for giggles.

A Pennsy Q2 must have pulled some heavyweights a few times.

Essentially, you are limited only by what you can get to run at scale speeds on your sharper curves.  For most of us, a 4-6-2 is the ticket on sharp curves.

 

 

 

[ACY Tom]

To the OP:

I note that you have 22 posts to your credit. I'm not sure what that says about your level of experience, but I'm a bit sensitive about that, having just read through the thread on proper treatment of newbies. So I'll just say that your questions are very reasonable, and you've already gotten some excellent answers. If my answers go into too much detail, you're welcome to pay attention to what you like and ignore the rest. Historical fact is historical fact; but how you choose to run your own railroad is your own business. 

As to the passenger cars, B&O used heavyweights well into the 1960's, so you are pretty safe there. Except for a very few streamlined combines, the road never owned a streamlined head end car. Most coaches and diners were upgraded heavyweights, and even upgraded heavyweight sleepers were used in the 1950's. The cars were green until the mid 1940's. Then they were blue until around 1953-54 when the gray stripe was added. The blue and gray scheme had been introduced on the top mainline trains around 1937, but was not applied to the secondary trains until later. 

B&O passenger diesels were mostly EMD E units on mainline trains, including AB sets of E6's, AA sets of E7's, and various versions of E8's and E9's, including both A and B units. There were AB F3 sets that were transferred to freight service in the late 1950's. In addition, some freight F3, F7, and Alco FA units had steam generators so they could be pressed into passenger service if needed. "Torpedo Tube" GP7 and GP9 units in the blue and gray passenger paint scheme were mostly used in commuter service, or on secondary trains such as the Akron-Cleveland section of trains 17-18.

Steam power was used on secondary trains until about 1956-57. These trains would have been comprised mostly of heavyweight cars. Class P-5 and P-5a USRA 4-6-2's (#5200-5229), and class P-6 and P-6a USRA 4-6-2 copies (#5230-5244) were commonly used. Any good USRA light 4-6-2 could be used, although appropriate detail changes would improve accuracy. As mentioned, the Mantua 4-6-2 was designed to represent a B&O P-7c in the 5300 series. The cab and tender aren't quite right, but the engine is a good overall representation, and a good, reliable workhorse model. Spoked drivers or Boxpok are equally appropriate. The P-7's had a solid Royal Blue livery from after WWII until the end of their careers, although the engine number and tender decoration of the model above are bogus. The few remaining B&O Pacifics were renumbered in the 100 number series at the beginning of 1957, and all B&O steam was retired in 1958. B&O actually owned not one but four Hudson type locomotives, but it is true that the Lord Baltimore was the most famous. No two of them were identical, athough two of them came pretty close. None even remotely resembled a NYC Hudson, and all had been scrapped by the end of 1950.

Lots of options here. Have fun.

Tom 

[pt714]

7j43k

Jim,

Steam???    "early in the 1950s"?

Yup, shure.

Mantua/tyco makes/made an actual model of a B&O engine you could use:  their Pacific.  For the money, I doubt you'd find anything else as appropriate.  And it'll run on 18" curves, I'm pretty sure.

 

 

Now, IGNORE that paint job.  THAT is a B&O loco.  If you want to travel this route, be sure to get a model with the "square" tender as above, not the cylindrical tender.  Also, the one above seems kinda slightly cheesy:  the lead truck wheels should be not-spoked (I think) and the trailing truck wheel looks kinda tacky.  And it looks like the drivers might be spoked, when I think they're supposed to be Boxspok (cast with roundish holes).  An older kit might be a better choice, although then you'll have to assemble the valve gear.  Which is not at all difficult, if you have the right tools and a bit of careful patience.  Now, note that this loco is a pretty big guy.  You MAY want to go smaller.  If you do, say so.

You should be sure and try those cars out on your curves before gettin' the loco.  They're awfully sharp, I'm thinking.  The engine should make it.  I have one, and it can.

 

 

Ed

 

 

I think one of the older metal kits as Ed describes has sat in my Box O' Broken Locos for a long while:

This is a heavy sucker-- cast metal body and tender. I imagine it'd track and pull very well, though I can't test this particular one. A number of them turn up on Ebay-- might make for a fun restoring/superdetailing project.

P

[dti406]

The B&O only had one 4-6-4 the Lord Baltimore and it was an experimental unit at best. Main Passenger power was the 4-6-2. For Diesels it was from the EA to the E9, although the B&O changed power for the trip over the Alleghenies to F7's, not for their horsepower, but tractive force and dynamic braking. As mentioned above they did use GP7's with steam generators in passenger service. And yes the FPA-2's also had steam generators.

 

Rick J

[jecorbett]

FWIW, my 2015 B&O calendar has a picture from March 30, 1952 with a handsome 4-6-2 pulling the eastbound Washingtonian into Cumberland station with 5 heavyweights in tow.  The first car looks like a combine and as far as I can tell the next 4 are coaches.

[mobilman44]

Hi,

Well, heavyweight cars were at one time headed by steam on most all RRs (excluding electric ones of course).  There was a lot of steam around in the early 50s and those that did passenger service typically had the "second string" trains, which were usually heavyweights.  Note that steam was around well into the '50s on some RRs as well.

I'm not a B&O expert, but if you could get a 4-6-2 (Pacific) or 4-6-4 (Hudson), they would do your heavyweights proud!  Also note that the B&O used GPs (7/9) and I believe SDs (7/9) and they too carried passengers as well.

[tstage]

Jim,

Here's your opportunity/excuse to own a beautiful NYC 4-6-4 Hudson:

Steamers don't get much prettier than that and they were, indeed, still around in the early 50s.

Tom

[Trainman440]

G Paine

 

Here is a Bachmann light Mike 2-8-2 that could work

Uhhh... correct me if I'm wrong, but USRA Mikados, or Mikados in general were used in freight, not passenger trains. 

Charles