Just for the benefit of the HO modelers just joining (and any potential OO modelers that I might find/might find the scale here), how about we put together a database of all the oversized, mass produced cars/engines we come across?
OK, define Oversized, please? -- One dimension too wide, like the old Athearn bluebox GPs?-- Thickness of wall size, like old Tyco Gondolas (actual scale thickness of Gondola walls in HO scale would be tough in any case for "daily runners", 1/2in steel sheet (rather thick) would be actual .005" styrene or brass)-- What about undersized models? How about stuff like, well, Plasticville (many of which kits can be made more realistic, but still).
chutton01 OK, define Oversized, please? -- One dimension too wide, like the old Athearn bluebox GPs?-- Thickness of wall size, like old Tyco Gondolas (actual scale thickness of Gondola walls in HO scale would be tough in any case for "daily runners", 1/2in steel sheet (rather thick) would be actual .005" styrene or brass)-- What about undersized models? How about stuff like, well, Plasticville (many of which kits can be made more realistic, but still).
How about oversized in most dimensions, like the old TYCO train set cars, the AHM Porter diesel, etc? And as for undersized stuff, sure, why not?
Well, what if an individual is interested in using a model, but they don't have it, and are keeping an eye out for one to acquire? What then? After all, some of the older models never appear on Internet searches.
The old TYCO "Hooterville Cannonball" 4-6-0 is probably closer to 1:76 proportion compared to an accurate HO model of Sierra No 3. AHM's Bowker 2-4-0 is very oversized (except maybe the tender). The old Hobbyline cheap freight cars particularly the caboose seem oversize to me. The number of modelers who even care about those relics must be very small however.
Dave Nelson
P.S.[edited post] I forgot about the old brass Porter Mogul 2-6-0 that Kidder imported years, make that decades, ago - it was S scale 1:64 narrow gauge (American made Japanese prototype, so perhaps 42" gauge? or meter gauge?) but was so small a prototype engine that even in HO narrow gauge it looked small. And evidently Porter built similar engines in graduated sizes so the one model could do duty in HOn3, HO, and Sn. It would be an eligible candidate for OO 1:76 if you could find one.
DN
After all, isn't that why they are the inexpensive, under the table equipment at swap meets? By the way, if anyone happens to have the 4-6-0 or the JK Bowker, I am interested in acquiring these for conversion to OO scale. If anyone has any OO scale, (odds are you don't, but still...), then ditto on acquiring it.
I'm pretty sure Athearn's plastic "Little Monster" 0-4-2T of the early 1960's was oversized. There was a brass version of the same engine available during the years previous, and I believe it was built to correct scale. Around the same time, there was also an unusual brass 0-4-0 with inside frames, which was marketed as the "Birdie". I've been told it represented an Asian narrow gauge engine, and was actually close to S scale, but built to operate on HO track. I agree that the consensus is that the AHM/Rivarossi V&T Bowker 2-4-0 and the Mantua/Tyco Sierra No. 3 4-6-0 are oversize, but I don't know what scale they were actually built to. I don't know about other shows, but I'll almost guarantee that there will be at least a few of those Mantua 4-6-0's at the upcoming show at Timonium, MD Oct. 24-25.
Tom
chutton01OK, define Oversized, please? -- One dimension too wide, like the old Athearn bluebox GPs?
The old Athearn is on the left, with a newer P2K on the right. The stomach (lower right) is also oversized.
Also my pet peeve, Hotwheels and Matchbox vehicles.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
MisterBeasleyThe old Athearn is on the left, with a newer P2K on the right. The stomach (lower right) is also oversized. Also my pet peeve, Hotwheels and Matchbox vehicles.
dknelson P.S.[edited post] I forgot about the old brass Porter Mogul 2-6-0 that Kidder imported years, make that decades, ago - it was S scale 1:64 narrow gauge (American made Japanese prototype, so perhaps 42" gauge? or meter gauge?) but was so small a prototype engine that even in HO narrow gauge it looked small. And evidently Porter built similar engines in graduated sizes so the one model could do duty in HOn3, HO, and Sn. It would be an eligible candidate for OO 1:76 if you could find one. DN
The Porter Mogul (aka Benkei) was built to HOj scale (1:80, 16.5 mm gauge,) as were a lot of other inexpensive brass models imported by Kidder and others. They purchased already in production (in Japan) models of Japanese-American locos, then labeled them by manufacturer (Porter, Baldwin etc.) and never specified scale or prototype track gauge (1067mm, 3' 6".)
Some of those `look like a locomotive, but no recognized prototype' brass models imported in the '60s had the same scale-gauge issue. That practice ended when the Yen went from 360Yen = $1.00 to about half that during the Nixon administration.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
MisterBeasleyThe old Athearn is on the left, with a newer P2K on the right.
Tha Athearn GP7 looks at home wth BB cars since most was a foot to wide while the Atlas and P2K Geep looks out of place since the engineer can not see long the sides of the cars.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Jack Derby After all, isn't that why they are the inexpensive, under the table equipment at swap meets? By the way, if anyone happens to have the 4-6-0 or the JK Bowker, I am interested in acquiring these for conversion to OO scale. If anyone has any OO scale, (odds are you don't, but still...), then ditto on acquiring it.
So is the interest in running OO scale equipment and finding additional rolling stock to run with existing OO?
IMO, even "oversized" HO trains are going to be oddfellows amongst OO. Here is a little factual information from the sites:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OO_gauge
From the OO wiki: "Though they run on the same track, OO gauge and HO gauge models of the same prototype do not sit well together since the OO models are larger than the HO equivalent." ... "OO describes models with a scale of 4 mm = 1 foot (1:76) running on HO scale 1:87 (3.5 mm = 1 foot) track"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HO_scale
HO is 1:87.1 or 1/87th of real trains vs. 1:76 for OO. If you are looking for "oversized" HO rolling stock, it's not going to really fit what you want very well. Most HO rolling stock which is oversized is not proportionally oversized, but usually too wide or too short or something like that in one or two dimensions, and not all three usually (i.e. height, width and length).
Of course it's up to you and good luck, but it may not result in a satisfying match.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
All I have to say is here:
http://americanoo.blogspot.com/search/label/HO%20conversions
Jack Derby chutton01 OK, define Oversized, please? -- One dimension too wide, like the old Athearn bluebox GPs?-- Thickness of wall size, like old Tyco Gondolas (actual scale thickness of Gondola walls in HO scale would be tough in any case for "daily runners", 1/2in steel sheet (rather thick) would be actual .005" styrene or brass)-- What about undersized models? How about stuff like, well, Plasticville (many of which kits can be made more realistic, but still). How about oversized in most dimensions, like the old TYCO train set cars, the AHM Porter diesel, etc? And as for undersized stuff, sure, why not?
Would be easier to list the handful of trainset junk cars that are passable rather than document the vast array of cars that are flawed in one way or another?
I suppose so...
Jack,I suppose the real question might be what is considered out of scale?
As I mention BB cars seems to be a foot to wide and 6"-12" to short and some of the older BB engines is a foot to wide.. Then several of Roundhouse cars are a foot to wide.
Any company that used Athearn cars for custom paint like Bev-Bel,CM Shops,Rail Runner etc are also to wide as is a lot of the older Cox,Lionel,Atlas and there may be others that used Athearn cars many years ago.
The Tyco/Mantua 4-6-0 (Dixie Belle) and the 4-8-0 is better suited for Sn3 then HO. In fact both makes a sweet looking S scale narrow gauge engine when it detailed.
I'm told the old Athearn 0-4-2T makes a very nice Sn30" engine.
To my eyes those engines is out of scale.
As we know Athearn BB engines and cars are readily accepted by the majority as is the Roundhouse cars that is a foot to wide..Under normal layout viewing the extra 12" isn't as noticeable.
If you're slavishly tied to prototype accuracy, this may be a tough thing to navigate. However, I think most modelers believe in some variation of the "close enough" philosophy. Consequently, most smallish HO steam engines can be used in the larger scales/gauges, modified to represent small versions of the same type. Geared engines and industrial tank engines would seem to be very natural candidates for such conversions. If the engine is already oversized, as many are, then the task is simple. Whether the engine is oversized or not, a larger cab, wider tender, taller stack, larger headlight, etc. may make it more convincing in a larger scale.
More oversized, some of the early brass out of Japan was built oversize, especially the PFM Sierra 2-6-6-2, that is an awfully large boiler for a small articulated.
Rick J
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
In defense of the Tyco-Mantua "Dixie Bell" type 4-6-0s, while they may be on the larger side of the type, they are not unreasonably so, at least as a starting point for some HO 'bashing. Against some prototypes, sure. I checked out it's proportions against some scale drawings, and it does compare favorably. The long wood burning smokebox does add length. The cabs, however can be way big. The tenders are a bit longer than any of the drawings I found. There were some as tall, and almost, if not as wide.
I admit, I like these, at least what can be done with them. Put an MDC cab on them and clean up the cast on details, put in a good motor...
I also have to admit, I like BB diesels and freight cars too. My layout, being at eye level helps hide that extra width. Dan