The Forum is a finger on the pulse of the Model Railroading Community. It probably gives better feedback than "Letters to the Editor" ever did.
Topics brought up on the Forum are often expounded on in the colunms of their next months issue.
They probably also gain some subcribers from people who were unaware of the magazine until the found the Forum.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
JOHN BRUCE III The OP and some of the replies are suggesting that the value of forums is declining overall.
The OP and some of the replies are suggesting that the value of forums is declining overall.
Thats your call, not mine. I've been on forums since I was a freshman in college in 1977 and have enjoyed forum participation since then. As the old saying goes, YMMV. If forums aren't someones thing, one can move on to things that they do enjoy. Easy enough.
I can't speculate on the reasons (although the company seems to be struggling), but the other major forum, sponsored by a manufacturer, was discontinued in 2012.
That was Atlas RR forums - the company gave their reasons in a notification - which is probably still there if you care to look for it. One of the members created a replacement forum called Atlas Rescue Forum in a similar format where most of the old members migrated too and continue to be very active. There is a group of very talented modelers who regulary display their work in the weekly Sunday Photo fun and lots of discussion about the hobby and models. No forum is perfect but overall it's been pretty good!
I keep wondering why Kalmbach keeps putting resources into the forums here, which fewer and fewer people seem to find worthwhile, when equivalent resources put into MRVP, which is a quality product that people pay for, would be more productive. Let's keep in mind that the forums are "free", and the posters aren't paid for their contributions. We're all getting what we pay for here.
As for worth while, I'm not sure everyone would agree with you on that - but if thats your personal oppinion, naturally you are free to find resources which meet your needs. Those who enjoy and benefit will stay around as long as the forum remains open and active.
One thing I've noticed from recent threads is that a fairly low number of posters even buy or subscribe to the magazine. If people get the impression that they don't need the mag, they can just look at the photo threads and ask questions, eventually Kalmbach won't even be able to maintain the forum. Second, this forum comes out under the MR logo. I'm concerned that this tends to devalue the work that people like Besougloff, Grivno, Popp, Otte, etc actually produce under the sponsorship of MR. When I go to MRVP, I want to see more, which is one reason I'd prefer that MR redirect forum resources to MRVP. What I'm seeing here is that a significant number of people don't care if they see less on the forum.
Second, this forum comes out under the MR logo. I'm concerned that this tends to devalue the work that people like Besougloff, Grivno, Popp, Otte, etc actually produce under the sponsorship of MR. When I go to MRVP, I want to see more, which is one reason I'd prefer that MR redirect forum resources to MRVP. What I'm seeing here is that a significant number of people don't care if they see less on the forum.
Again, I don't believe many would agree with your assessment on those things. I think MR Magazine and it's services and forums are appreciated by many model railroad enthusiasts, despite a few detractors that inevidably come along.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
richhotrainSorry to say, David, if you really feel that way, then you should just go away. For those of us who have been members of the forum for longer than two years, we have contributed much and gained much from interaction with other forum members. Rich
I agree.. I know if I wasn't happy on any forum I would move on in fact I've done that before.
On the other hand there are those that wants to see only "Rah,Rah,good job,well done" type replies and no topics on the finer points of modeling operation,prototypical information,thought provoking discussions etc..
One forum I was on had a excellent discussion on advanced layout design following prototype practices and one member asked "What does that have to do with model trains and layout planing? Palm slap!
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Good Morning,
I've been an MR since the mid 50s, and on this forum for some time, and participated in all the different ones. Yes, I'm also a long time subscriber to Kalmbach's publications and will continue to be.
This forum in particular has helped me immensely. In fact, I believe I would not be into the hobby today if it wasn't for this forum. It has been invaluable to me, and obviously to others as well.
Do I care if a fellow poster is not a Kalmbach subscriber? No, I don't. I do think it would benefit him/her, but this forum is open to the public, and not some elite private club.
One more thing..... over the years I've come to be good friends with a couple of folks thru this forum. To me, that is priceless!
So if you think this forum is a waste, and no one uses it much, then I urge you to either adjust your attitude or go elsewhere.
Otherwise,
ENJOY
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
DAVID FORTNEY I have been in this hobby for over 40 years but these forums really don't offer very much. All I have seen is when somebody does make a comment it seems that too many have negative views of what they like or don't like. This is the very reason I don't comment most of the time. I have tired of all the so called experts and how they do it, who in the hell cares. I tried earlier this year to comment more often and starting several threads but it seems if I don't do it your way I'm wrong. So now I just check in every now and then and it is still the same, the same old so called experts and more useless posts then I care to read. Btw, I am a subscriber since the late 60's Have fun I'm out!
I have been in this hobby for over 40 years but these forums really don't offer very much. All I have seen is when somebody does make a comment it seems that too many have negative views of what they like or don't like.
This is the very reason I don't comment most of the time. I have tired of all the so called experts and how they do it, who in the hell cares.
I tried earlier this year to comment more often and starting several threads but it seems if I don't do it your way I'm wrong.
So now I just check in every now and then and it is still the same, the same old so called experts and more useless posts then I care to read.
Btw, I am a subscriber since the late 60's
Have fun I'm out!
It must have been a bad month for Kalmbach.
Sorry to say, David, if you really feel that way, then you should just go away. For those of us who have been members of the forum for longer than two years, we have contributed much and gained much from interaction with other forum members.
Rich
Alton Junction
rrinkerWho's right and who's wrong?
Nobody..Such things is made up of one's modeling style and many has forgotten that especially on forums.
As a example.. During the county fair I was as happy as a two headed woodpecker in a bucket of worms running my old BB GP35/GP35/GP7 consist as I was my Atlas Kato RS11 consist or GP7/RS11 consist pulling my old BB and Roundhouse freight cars.
I'm sure there are those on this forum that will smirk while reading this reply because my models isn't today's top tier models..
I have several top tier RTR freight cars and 5 Atlas Silver series locomotives tuck safely away in my storage totes..
I really don't see a lot of that so-called elitism around here, where the replies are "this is how you MUST do it to be correct" On the contrary, there are plenty of "It's your railroad and you cna do what you like, but..." type of replies. That's not being elitist. I don't know about everyone, but after 40+ years in this hobby I'm still learning things. My methods have changed over the years as I learned some newer or better way of doing things, and there have certainly been things ADVERTISED as newer and better that I've tried and abandoned because they WEREN'T better. Some people want the best scenery they can build, and will run anything through it. Some people want every chalk mark on every freight car to be exactly as it appeared on a certain date, and don;t care if the industry they are spotting that car at is simply some carbaord taped together "for now". And everywhere in between. Who's right and who's wrong? There seems to be a wide diversity here. I don't really see much preaching of one way of participating in this hooby over another. People used to write letters saying columns like Tony Koester's were liek that - THIS is how you run a model railroad, anything else is wrong. Tony never wrote or insinuated such things. He changed from proto-freelancing to modeling a specific prototype. Does that make the AM "wrong"? Not in the least. The stuff he wrote about the AM is just as valid as the stuff he writes about the NKP. And never does he say if you don't to it his way, you aren't a 'real' model railroader. I see these forums the same way.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
DAVID FORTNEYThis is the very reason I don't comment most of the time. I have tired of all the so called experts and how they do it, who in the hell cares.
Maybe those that asks the question wants a knowledgeable reply instead of do whatever you want,its your railroad? Maybe they don't want a answer that's overly complicated? Experts is well known to complicate the simple while overstating the obvious.
I usually to a quick scan of the activity lists (sometimes there is an interesting thread on a Forum I don't normally look at), then I look at my Discussions, followed by the Model Railroader: General Discussion, Layout building, Prototype Information, the Trains General Discussion and Classic Trains forums several times a day to see if there ar any threads of interest.
I also look at the other Trains forums, but less often.
I will often will look at threads with uninformative titles so see if they might be of interest.
While there are many the threads are repettious (especially the question threads), they somtimes do provide new information on a subject .
While not everyday, there are some posts which have spured me to spend some time reasearching in my book collection and on the Net (often on topic I would not have thought of otherwise). This is an activity I enjoy.
I also like to look at posts that have no responces after several days. If the pose a question, I can sometimes find an answer.
I have started very few threads. The ones I have started have usually provided railroad information from a non-railroad site.
You're also making the assumption that if it were a requirement to subscribe, or if this forum just disappeared, all the people who currently do not subscribe to the magazine would then subscribe. I highly doubt that, they'd just move to another forum. There are at least two good ones (like I said, I don;t have the time to devote to full participating in all of them, and I don't believe in half way participation either), one associated with a free magazine and one unaffiliated with any publication. Amazingly, they continue to thrive - the unaffiliated one has been around since long before Kalmbach offered any form of online communications other than opening up email addresses. Kalmbach's revenue would not increase if the only option was the magazine and no forum. I'd say quite the opposite, people would be upset to lose these forums and perhaps not bother to renew their subscriptions.
And if you take notice of the subscription threads that pop up once in a while, a lot of the people here who are not subscribers DO buy issues at the newsstand when they have something of interest. When they do that, they are paying on average double the price for that issue than I do per issue with a long term subscription. So freeloaders, they are not.
JOHN BRUCE IIIWould MR pay for any posts or photos here in its print publications? This may be a key to declining interest -- the material isn't that worthwhile, often same old-same old from the same guys every week,.....
JOHN BRUCE IIIOn the other hand, why don't, say, Lou Sassi or Pelle Soeborg or other well-known MR authors post here?
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
JOHN BRUCE III As to why I'm commenting, all I can say is that I look at several forums, have dropped out of several, and tend to agree with Brakie and others who say traffic and interest are down. That topic was interesting, since I'd seen the same thing. But the next step is whether MR can benefit its paying customers by serving them rather than the freeloaders, diverting nonproductive assets to improve the paying product.
As to why I'm commenting, all I can say is that I look at several forums, have dropped out of several, and tend to agree with Brakie and others who say traffic and interest are down. That topic was interesting, since I'd seen the same thing. But the next step is whether MR can benefit its paying customers by serving them rather than the freeloaders, diverting nonproductive assets to improve the paying product.
Somewhat insulting to all the rest of your fellow forum members, don't you think?
Back to the OP's question, I read all four MR forums, plus the Classic Trains forum.
I also am a registered member of two Yahoo forums: Wiring for DCC and NCE-DCC.
I am also a registered member of ModelRailroadForums.
rrinker Compete with itself? How is a forum between readers (and plenty of non-readers - not everyone here is a subsciber, nor do you have to be to post here) competing with a magazine format which is "Here is material - take a look" with no two way dialog really possible? Sure you can write a letter to the editor, but that's not two way discourse. Frankly, if the forum here is that low quality and useless to you, why are you even bothering to comment on this?
Compete with itself? How is a forum between readers (and plenty of non-readers - not everyone here is a subsciber, nor do you have to be to post here) competing with a magazine format which is "Here is material - take a look" with no two way dialog really possible? Sure you can write a letter to the editor, but that's not two way discourse.
Frankly, if the forum here is that low quality and useless to you, why are you even bothering to comment on this?
You're making my point. People are coming here who don't buy, subscribe to, or read the magazine. Subscribers are pretty easy to identify, at least at MR. Given the various signon names, I question whether there's more than a small percentage of subscribers on this forum. This would presumably be a good question for Kalmbach to staff out. There's no good way to know how many visitors who don't subscribe buy the mag, but again, I wouldn't be optimistic. In effect, MR is "selling" a product that non-readers can feel is nearly as good as buying the mag. It's competing with itself. The "free on line mag" is different, because it equates hits with circulation, so it wants free hits no matter how dull the forum is over there.
John, you have made at least 5 replies, all of which seem to suggest that you would be happier without the forums than with them. You can feel however you want, but I think that you are way off base. These forums are great and they are informative. Kalmbach should be thanked for maintaining the forums, not chastised. Speaking for myself, I thoroughly enjoy these forums, and I visit them several times a day.
R
I disagree with the basic premise that interest here is declining all that much. It's also summer still and there is always a drop off in model railroading over the summer. Even the print magazines get thinner - and always did, go look back at the old issues on the All Access Pass.
Frankly, if the forum here is that low quality and useless to you, why are you even bothering to comment on this? There are places I don't go because I don't find the content worthwhile, and there are places that have decent content but I don't have the time to manage 3 or 4 different forums, so at some point I had to pick one. That doesn't mean I don't occasionally click a link and read a thread on another forum when it's of interest, I just don't regularly log on to them and scan all their sections.
I'd love to have my layout make it into MR, once I get the new one built. But I know my scenery skills - that's a REAL long shot. But I can share photos here and on my personal web page. Part of what keeps me going is seeing others' less than immaculately perfect work. Does that make my posts inferior to the magazine? If you are grading on how awesome nad finished the layouts look, maybe it is, but does that mean someone can't get anything useful out of information on how I build my layout?
The main section I post in is Electronics and DCC, because that is where I have my highest level of competency. Comapred to a once a month column in the magazine, this section is FAR more useful. I dare say the collective knowledge base in the forum is in some ways superior to the magazine columnist. I've found that true with other publications and forums as well. I'm not saying Dr. Puckett and Mr. Petrarca don't know what they are talking about, but the nature of a magazine column is that it has to be general and address a wide audience. WIth a forum, people can ask specific questions and get specific answers. Inferior content? I don't think so.
Here's another question. Would MR pay for any posts or photos here in its print publications? This may be a key to declining interest -- the material isn't that worthwhile, often same old-same old from the same guys every week, in fact posted on two or three other forums at the same time. Why even come here to get the same stuff that's on other forums? On the other hand, why don't, say, Lou Sassi or Pelle Soeborg or other well-known MR authors post here? I assume it's because they value their work too highly to put it up for free.
So why does MR compete with itself with a low-quality product?
Waitm, you are saying that the time/money put in this forum is not worthwhile? The content here is user driven, it's not articles that would instead appear in the magazine. There are other volunteer moderators specfically so Mr. Otte doesn't have to babysit the forum all day long. I fail to see how dealing away with the forum would materially improve MR or MRVP, all in all having forum software is generally a low cost item.
Free exchange of ideas between other modelers - I don't even know how you can put a price tag on that.
I look over the General Dicussion, Layouts and layout building and Electronics and DCC categories almost every day, and I occassionally venture into the Prototype information section too. I skip topics that cover things outside my era, like how to build a modern locomotive, but most threads get at least a quick look.
I start threads occassionally, mostly to ask questions, and I contribute to threads where I feel I have something to offer. Whether or not that's true sometimes remains to be seen. I don't mind answering newbies' questions, in fact I enjoy sharing what little knowledge I have. I love WPF even though I don't have a lot to contribute most weeks.
As I said in a recent thread, what I don't understand is why more people don't respond to a thread given the number of views that many threads get.
Overall, I think the forums are great.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
carl425 The first thing you are missing is that much of the publishing business is about providing content to attract readers so you can sell advertising. See those ads on the right side of the screen? MR gets paid for those. This forum is a source of virtually free content that MR can use to attract people to see the paid ads. You can see from Steven Otte's posting patterns that moderating this forum is part of his day job. I'm sure Kalmbach has done the cost/benefit analysis and determined that maintaining this forum is a good business decision.
The first thing you are missing is that much of the publishing business is about providing content to attract readers so you can sell advertising. See those ads on the right side of the screen? MR gets paid for those. This forum is a source of virtually free content that MR can use to attract people to see the paid ads.
You can see from Steven Otte's posting patterns that moderating this forum is part of his day job. I'm sure Kalmbach has done the cost/benefit analysis and determined that maintaining this forum is a good business decision.
Well, I'm not sure. Most of the ads are in-house for MR -- in old-fashioned print mags, the in-house ads tended to go in space that hadn't been sold to paying advertisers. So I don't know what's up with that. Other ads seem to rotate and are probably part of a package deal with bigger advertisers like Walthers. If I were any of those, I'd be asking Kalmbach questions about what part of my ad results came from these.
Forums that are run by non-commercial individuals or groups don't seem to earn significant money from their ads and must either depend on "angels" or members who donate.I can't imagine this forum does much better. I agree with Brakie that higher-quality threads would improve interest, but at what point do you simply say OK, you want quality, you can subscribe to MRVP (for instance).
A big part of my point, of course, is that Mr Otte babysits this forum as part of his paid employment. If that part of his time could go to MRVP or MR, what would we see instead? I'll bet David Popp has some ideas.
JOHN BRUCE IIIWhat I'm seeing here is that a significant number of people don't care if they see less on the forum.
Actually maybe more thought provoking questions on designing layouts,operation,structure building,kitbashing etc just might start drawing a bigger crowd then the same-o same-o very basic questions that has been ask many times beyond counting..
Of course all the forums I am on has seen a sufficient drop in activity over the last 12-18 months..
There is enough model railroading tutorials on you tube that one doesn't need to ask a question on forums when you can watch how something is done.
JOHN BRUCE IIIIn terms of overall virtue, this may be a good thing. If I were Kalmbach, I'd nevertheless be concerned about profiting from the enterprise in order to keep the doors open. One thing I've noticed from recent threads is that a fairly low number of posters even buy or subscribe to the magazine. If people get the impression that they don't need the mag, they can just look at the photo threads and ask questions, eventually Kalmbach won't even be able to maintain the forum.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
I would sign on to that statement!
I think quite a lot of us will find out what this forum´s value is when it´s gone!
selector The first time my wife catches me rolling my eyes when I read a question from a novice, one that I have seen a couple of dozen times, I hope she gives me a stern lecture. I was there once, and I was met with kindness, fairness, patience, and good will. I hope this will continue on our forum...ours as much as Kalmbach's. -Crandell
The first time my wife catches me rolling my eyes when I read a question from a novice, one that I have seen a couple of dozen times, I hope she gives me a stern lecture. I was there once, and I was met with kindness, fairness, patience, and good will. I hope this will continue on our forum...ours as much as Kalmbach's.
-Crandell
In terms of overall virtue, this may be a good thing. If I were Kalmbach, I'd nevertheless be concerned about profiting from the enterprise in order to keep the doors open. One thing I've noticed from recent threads is that a fairly low number of posters even buy or subscribe to the magazine. If people get the impression that they don't need the mag, they can just look at the photo threads and ask questions, eventually Kalmbach won't even be able to maintain the forum.
Kalmbach, I hope you're paying attention.
The OP and some of the replies are suggesting that the value of forums is declining overall. I can't speculate on the reasons
In the not so distant past the MRR mag changed the way you could log into the forum. Ever since that happened the new members have dropped way off. I used to see new folks saying hi everyweek. Now I think I have seen two in the last 6 months.
I used to read most of the forums. Now, I'm down to two. I don't post in either one a whole lot and only read the threads that sound interesting. The newness has finally worn off.
Maybe I need to start showing what I'm doing in the weekly thread. It might rekindle my interest!
Chuck - Modeling in HO scale and anything narrow gauge
I believe it to be a natural progression that as one learns more, the interest begins its decline thereafter. My personality is to attempt to master something and after a while to seek something else. Some mastery takes me many years, some only a few weeks. I was intensely interested in learning about this hobby and read voraciously for many months. Nowadays, I feel the interest waning and find that I can have fun with my trains without needing to come here or to other hobby forums. Whereas I would spend hours each day, usually spread over five or six sessions, nowadays my hobby forum time, spread across four sites, would amount to maybe twenty minutes.
However, I would be very unhappy to learn that I couldn't come here and ask a pointed question to people who have done what I am contemplating. I also still enjoy reading posts from the 'guyz' whose posts and thoughts I have read over the past decade. I may be in this by myself, locally, but I do like to commune with fellow hobbyists from time-to-time.
One point to make is that there are really good tutorials on MRVP. I don't know if the poster here is a member -- the difficulty I would see as a beginner is that a random "free" answer to a question ("Which is the best HO diesel?" is the kind of thing I see here all too often) is, again, what you're paying for it. MRVP has gone to a lot of effort to produce well-done tutorials, but at this point what I'm hearing is that Kalmbach is competing with itself to offer a "free" product -- in fact, something that probably on balance hurts its image.
Perhaps an organization like the NMRA could offer a "free" forum devoted to novices.