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need help with an old open frame motor

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  • Member since
    April 2003
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 7:22 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by mcouvillion

Teffy,

I'll be at Steve's Saturday for the layout tour. We'll pull the cover on the Trainmaster and I'll show you the motor mounts , and the camera, and the sound decoder, and the speaker, and the .....

Mark C.


Good Morning Mark:

John and I figured we'd be at Mickey's since he'll have his layout and the club layout to man for the open house.

Bob
  • Member since
    August 2003
  • From: Northeast Houston
  • 576 posts
Posted by mcouvillion on Monday, November 22, 2004 6:26 PM
Teffy,

I'll be at Steve's Saturday for the layout tour. We'll pull the cover on the Trainmaster and I'll show you the motor mounts , and the camera, and the sound decoder, and the speaker, and the .....

Mark C.
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, November 22, 2004 6:22 PM
Mark:

Let's discuss this the next time we're toe to toe. It's much better to get rid of those old motors, they're a pain in the backside. If you want some of the old Tenshodo motors let me know.

Dogwood:

The KMT locos were well built, but the motors, even thou good for that time frame, are not very good by todays standards. Using RTV for a base is a good idea and it is easy to replace. When you put in a new can motor it's probably going to be your sons problem to replace it. Since it's a DC motor I'd CALL NWSL and talk to them about the problem.

Have a blessed day and remember SANTA FE ALL THE WAY
Bob
  • Member since
    August 2003
  • From: Northeast Houston
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Posted by mcouvillion on Monday, November 22, 2004 6:07 PM
areibel,

I have a problem with using essentially glue to mount a motor. If I ever need to work on it, I have to remove the motor from the glue, clean it off, do the repair, then find some more glue (that's not congealed) and re-glue it. I think this is extremely poor practice. Yes its fast to get it in, but its not to get it repaired and it just looks sloppy. With the brackets, yes it took a while, but I can do my repairs quickly and have it back exactly as it was with no extra materials. I mentioned that I prefer to re-work the original motors rather than remotoring, and I have only had to remotor a couple of engines. I just don't understand the need to repower when the original motor, set up properly (they usually don't come from the factory the best way) can give years of dependable service. It is one of my preferences, I'm sure it is not for everyone, but that's the way it is on my railroad.

Mark C.
  • Member since
    March 2002
  • From: NW PA
  • 303 posts
Posted by areibel on Monday, November 22, 2004 3:39 PM
Originally posted by mcouvillion

dogwood960,

My LHS rep suggested that I use silicon adhesive to install my new can motor in my TrainMaster. NEVER! The motor had four threaded mounting holes and I found 4 tiny screws that fit and built new mounting brackets. Took days to get everything right.


Mark,
I've used the black RTV silicone to mount motors in several locos, it makes it a piece of cake! Have you had a specific problem?? It seems that the hassle of trying to get everything drilled and aligned to use screws would be a very un- fun thing to do!
Cambridge Springs- Halfway from New York to Chicago on the Erie Lackawanna!
  • Member since
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  • From: Northeast Houston
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Posted by mcouvillion on Sunday, November 21, 2004 10:48 PM
dogwood960,

If you are interested in trying to repair the motor,even if it is just an exercise to see if you can do it, check the end-play of the armature. Usually there is a lot of slop in older motors, such that they run well in one direction and not the other. Try to take the slop out by using the Kaydee 0.010" or 0.015" shims. Cut a "V" into the side of the shim such that it can slip on the armature shaft but won't slip off. Pu***he slop out of the armature such that the brushes track down the center of the commutator. Install the shim(s) in the gap at the end of the armature inside the motor frame. The armature must turn freely, but with minimal end-play. Lubricate the armature at the journals and run it in on the bench, both directions and varying the speed. You should get it to eventually run smoothly at very slow speeds in either direction. You'll also want to poli***he commutator when you have the brushes out while you are working on the motor.

I offer this suggestion because it is easier to get the original motor to fit, if you can get it to run properly, than it is to figure out how to properly install and align a new can motor. My LHS rep suggested that I use silicon adhesive to install my new can motor in my TrainMaster. NEVER! The motor had four threaded mounting holes and I found 4 tiny screws that fit and built new mounting brackets. Took days to get everything right. If I can use the original motor, I will always use the original motor, but I'll make it run properly first.

Mark C.
  • Member since
    May 2004
  • From: Ohio
  • 1,615 posts
Posted by Virginian on Sunday, November 21, 2004 8:55 PM
While you could probably get it rewound, I would advise replacing it. NWSL is the place to check. Motors, gears, axles, etc.; they're the guys.
What could have happened.... did.
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Posted by Big_Boy_4005 on Sunday, November 21, 2004 1:38 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by cjcrescent

Dogwood;
My advice is to replace the motor. The old KMT models are very good models but their original motors were never very good. I think the material the magnets are made of looses its "charge" of magnetism over the years, and the result is a motor that runs hotter than it should. This in turn can cause the insulation on the windings to crack and have bare wire touch. This causes intermittant shorts and the erractic behavior of the motor.


I'm with CJ here on this one. If at all possible, replace that motor with a modern "can" motor. Is the model in question intended to run on AC? If so, it makes that replacement a little trickier, but not impossible. Can motors have a lot of advantages over open frame, they are quieter, smoother, and use less current to operate. The problem is they need DC to operate.
  • Member since
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  • From: Alabama
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Posted by cjcrescent on Sunday, November 21, 2004 1:23 PM
Dogwood;
My advice is to replace the motor. The old KMT models are very good models but their original motors were never very good. I think the material the magnets are made of looses its "charge" of magnetism over the years, and the result is a motor that runs hotter than it should. This in turn can cause the insulation on the windings to crack and have bare wire touch. This causes intermittant shorts and the erractic behavior of the motor.

Carey

Keep it between the Rails

Alabama Central Homepage

Nara member #128

NMRA &SER Life member

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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, November 21, 2004 2:35 AM
It probably is a three-pole-three different windings or poles on the armature. Newer motors are at least five-pole resulting in smoother starting and fewer dead spots. My only other suggestions are to clean/poli***he armature where the brushes make contact and replace the brushes and the tension springs as a set. Then be sure and give the new brushes time to run in making good contact. You should not have alot of arcing or sparks around the brushes.
  • Member since
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need help with an old open frame motor
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, November 21, 2004 12:40 AM
I have an old brass KMT engine with an open frame motor. I have cleaned it and fixed a few windings. The motor still runs intermittent at best. Can someone offer some help?

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