I am thinking about getting some Spectrum PRR Heavyweight cars and converting the lighting to DCC - but at the same time I would like to paint the interior the correct color or colors. As far as I know, most standard interiors on these ho scale models cars are pink or white - probably to improve the poor lighting by reflecting what light is present.
The only photos I can find (mostly black and white - not much help) show either a burgundy red or a nasty blue - like British rail use. Even worse they appear in the same car next to each other.
Can anyone help me out with this?
Chris.
Loco Guy - is a state of mind - not an affinity to locomotives.
Sit back and enjoy your track...
I don't have a "real" answer. As in, I KNOW.
But.
You can't see the ceiling anyway. So I'd paint it aluminum. It'll reflect the light nicely, and metallic paint is the most light-opaque. A coat of white over the aluminum would be slightly better, but probably not worth the work.
The walls, you'll be able to see. I'd paint them wood brown. The real cars were either wood surfaced or metal. The former would be varnished. The latter would be painted, of course. If it had been painted a light color, it would show dirt easier. So on metal surfaces that passengers can touch (around windows and in passageways), I'd go dark. Wood brown would be the safest choice. But a dark green or blue would work.
Floors would likely be dark for the same reasons.
But, as I said, I don't KNOW.
7j43k, Thanks for that reply. I get what you are saying about the interior colors - but what about the seat fabric itself. I see photos of red and blue. What would (in your opinion) be the best choice? Did they even use colored fabric in those days?
I do paint - so a little bit of color mixing and detail won't matter. I have a large box of paints and a lot of brushes to use so it won't cost me any extra to increase the detail.
Hi Chris,
I have a book of PRR painting and lettering diagrams. One drawing from 1907 and revised in 1927 calls for light buff enamel on walls and bulkheads. White enamel on upper and lower deck ceilings.
Many, but not all, of the Pullman sleeping cars in the heavyweight days had a wood grained painting method applied to the steel interior panels.
I have the Pullman Paint and Lettering book featuring the notes from the Pullman Senior Inspector, Peter Andrew Falles and in it, exterior colors and diagrams are covered extensively but interior painting is only given a footnote about woodgraining and little is mentioned about solid colors.
It seems many of these books are produced for modelers that are only concerned with external appearances but with the improved lighting in our models many of us are becoming more concerned with accurate interiors.
In the many heavyweight cars I have been in, tan or buff are the predominant colors and a pastel mint green was sometimes used along with what you may be describing as "pink" which is more like a "Pepto-Bismal" salmon or coral color that was popular in the late '40s and early '50s.
After the War the railroads enlisted the industrial designers and decorators to enhance the somewhat drab interiors. Many of these were combinations of bright metals, exotic veneers and even leathers in varying shades, mostly combinations of earth-tones with accent colors of brighter reds and blues.
Short answer, you won't go wrong with beige, buff or tan on the walls. Seating fabrics as I recall were mainly a maroon/henna brown color, dark green or shades of gray (like an oatmeal color).
Nearly every railroad used antimacassars (headrest covers) of white, buff or ivory on the seat backs. These would be a real challenge to make or paint but the latest coaches from Rapido has them represented on their seats.
Rapido Photo
Have fun! Ed
Some discussion of seat colors here: http://prrthsdiscussionweb30239.yuku.com/topic/1704/Interior-Colors-of-PRR-442-Sleepers#.VTQ9xfAYGSo
Unfortunately the time frame is a little later than you'd like.
I'm going to send you a P.M.
Tom
My Layout Photos- http://s1293.photobucket.com/user/ajwarshal/library/
Alex,
That's a pretty broad area to cover. What car in particular do you need information for?
Here was one such discussion...
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/13/p/239827/2675411.aspx
And another...
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/18587/268112.aspx#268112
As with the building colors, I can probably provide colors for just about any NYC cars.
Regards, Ed
LOCO_GUYI did always wonder why the proto 2000 had the two tone grey with white stripe and the proto 1000 were black with the grey white stripe.
The Proto 1000 were FA-1s painted in what was primarily the "freight" scheme, the Proto 2000 units were PA-1 for Passenger service in the two-toned gray paint.
Very early NYC passenger e-7s were black as well, then dark gray with light gray stripe... then lighter gray with dark gray stripe.
Everything changes over time...
Ed
LOCO_GUYEd, Those photos you posted looked similar to ones I has seen for the PRR passenger cars.
PRR, NYC, Southern Pacific, Santa Fe, Union Pacific, ad infinitum... it was the style dictated by the times.
ALSO, most of the sleeping cars and many of the diners were operated by the Pullman Company and, although the individual railroads had some input, Pullman was a pretty large force to reckon with and the interiors were finished as they saw fit.
Lots of discussion regarding Dreyfuss, Lowey and others butting heads with the Pullman designers on interior color schemes.
What may be percieved as ugly to you may actually be quite attractive if you were standing in the car at the time. Many of the magazine reproductions do not represent the colors accurately.
I suggest you get all three volumes of the Ed Nowak books of color photography of the New York Central. In it there are numerous photos of NYC's passenger equipment and they are all very tastefully done. The railroads spent a considerable amount of effort in selecting color schemes.
For the Pennsy, the book Pennsy Streamliners: The Blue Ribbon Fleet by Joe Welsh is quite helpful showing many color photographs.
Enjoy! Ed
Ed, Being from Britain (I live in the US now)- I have the unfortunate experience of travelling on BR trains and that blue was ugly. Having said that, I did ride some restored steam locomotives run by railroad preservation societies in the UK and they were mostly a reddish with some form of beige pattern in them. Not bad - bit I get what you say about "general opinions" on what a good color looks like.
Thousands of people may agree that blue looks good - but not me - maybe I am too old and cranky to change my mind :-)
In the absence of definite information, you're probably pretty safe with earth tones. If the interior is detailed, lighter shades will highlight those interior details. But if the interior details are sparse or nonexistent, darker shades will prevent the eye from focusing on their absence. I have read of red tile floors on PRR heavyweight P70 coaches, but I'm not sure what era this appeared, how long the color was in use, how widespread it was, or whether there was a pattern involving other colors or shades. In short, that fragmentary information is just SLIGHTLY better than useless. I've also heard of a "plum" color used in the vestibule interiors of Pullman cars, but I'm not convinced that color is the same deep purple as we might think of as "plum" today.
Interesting Gee-Whiz Fact: Antimacassars are still used by Amtrak today, although they are now a good grade of soft, woven paper instead of cloth. They drape over the backs of seats in sleepers and coaches, and extend down to about shoulder blade height. They are about 10 - 12" wide. In the old days, they were cloth and often had the Pullman name or the railroad name or logo woven into the fabric. The current Amtrak items are excellent for shining shoes. We used to use old ones for that before throwing them away!
Tom,
The other issue - which I mentioned at the start of this thread is I am going to have to convert the lighting (a DC bulb) for a full wave rectified LED for use on DCC. So that presents another problem. Depending on what color the interior is will depend on the amount of light I will need to "display" the interior. So Dark colors will need a lot of light and lighter colors not so much.
Also, the heavyweight cars use a single bulb in the middle and a plastic "diffuser" to spread the light down the coach - which is not really very good.
I am hoping to pack 2 LED's into the roof and find a way of making that "fill the space". I did convert some Life Like PRR cars using 2 LED's and a drinking straw (like you get at the convenience store) to diffuse the light. It worked pretty well. Almost like a long flourecent tube :-)
Anyhoo, I am getting off-topic here. So thanks for all the feedback.
LOCO_GUYI am thinking about getting some Spectrum PRR Heavyweight cars and converting the lighting to DCC
Chris,
Any reason you are sold on the Spectrum cars? I don't know if they have improved them since the ones that I bought several years ago... (you can have them if you want them) and I'm not bashing Bachmann, but I didn't have much luck getting them to operate very well. The draft gear was the worst. They have a goofy swivel setup that is tied to the truck kingpin and the poor fit and engineering makes the coupler box sag terribly.
However...
You were mentioning "converting" to LED (which Bachmann claims to already have LED lighting installed) but may I suggest flexible LED strip lights. I posted a thread about them some time ago...
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/225078.aspx
Although I mentioned them for structure lighting they are nearly perfect for passenger car lighting, too. I say nearly since they can be too bright. And even though these claim to be warm white they are still too cool looking to represent older incandescent passenger car lighting. You can tint the LEDs with kapton tape or even orange or yellow Sharpie pens.
They can be cut to length and I actually wire them directly to the DCC pickup with out any additional resistor, although perhaps there should be one to make them less intense but I have not experimented with adding additional resistance.
They are supposed to be fed with 12VDC but they seem to run fine directly off my DCC track power.
You may want to give these a try IF you are looking for bright interior lighting. It's kind of counterproductive but you could even blacken every other LED to tone them down if they look too bright.
Good Luck, Ed.
As seen in the passenger cars in the Durango and Silverton last fall, which is a bit older than 1920s-30s, the interior was a gloss varnished Knotty pine. Was not in one of the business cars so they may be finished in some other fancy wood.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
Chris --- I agree with Ed that the Bachmann cars have some issues. They are being re-released at a much higher price, and I hope the price increase is justified by a redesign of the coupler arrangement. I don't know what problems you might encounter on your 22" radius curves if you were to body mount the couplers. The side details are also a bit thick. The ancient P70 kits by Eastern Car Works and Alco require more work, but would probably produce a better detailed car --- if you can find them on ebay or at a train show. Those kits do not include interiors; the Bachmann cars do have interiors with minimal detail. I found it interesting that the seats in the Bachmann combine were installed "backwards" (if there is such a thing with the prototype's reversible seats), but I had no serious problems reinstalling them to face the baggage compartment. For a more modern smooth side PRR coach, Centralia Car Shops produced very nice P85 coaches several years ago. I believe P85 car sides are available from somebody, if you want to build the car yourself. P85's were new when the PRR T1's were in service.
As for lighting, I'll defer to ED on that. He seems to have more experience than I do on that score.
Alex --- For your NYC cars, the former Branchline single window cars (now Atlas) are probably closest for your purposes, BUT they are likely to present problems on your curves. So your current plan to use shorties is probably best for you at this stage of the game.
Thanks for "backing me up" Tom...
I just want to be sure Loco Guy checks out all his options before investing (both money AND time) trying to get a nice looking and decent running passenger car.
I might suggest the Rivarossi 60 footers now available at modeltrainstuff.
If he's looking for a commuter train kind of look these cars might just be the ticket.
http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Rivarossi-HO-60-Coach-NYC-p/riv-hr4200.htm
If I recall, though, adding electrical pickup might be a challenge with these. I have some from the first run and they had plastic trucks so you would need a wiper OR I believe Walthers had replacement trucks with pickups but now your cost is right back up to the $60-70 range.
The MTH heavyweights, again, are sweet and the cost isn't bad for what you get, they have a constant lighting keep alive which is nice but the heavyweight cars are dimly lit compared to the lighting they offer in their lightweight cars.
The real downside is their selection is poor with only three basic car types and no coach or diner. I did a little write-up here...
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/245778/2746301.aspx
Alex:
Sorry for the delay but I have been looking through many books for color specs or photos on the NYC MU cars or heavyweight coaches. These cars were the "working grunts" of the railroad and I guess didn't warrant color film like the Century and Empire State Express cars did.
I've been in plenty of these cars. There were scores of them being scrapped in the early 1970s in Ashtabula, OH and I went through many of them.
A few of the railroad historical societies I was involved with had some NYC heavyweight coaches, too. Do you think I ever bothered to take a picture of the interiors?
Any shade of beige, buff, tan on the walls and a lighter cream or off white on the ceiling will be fine. Older cars had rattan seating which would be a straw color and others were in a maroon or spruce green color. Tone the colors down by adding a bit of white or gray.
Here's an old Long Island Ping-Pong interior.
Here's a link to a photo of a Pennsy MP-54. Although the seats are a bright cowhide look the other colors are pretty much an "industry standard"
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2935167
Those Rivarossi cars might be a good choice for you, too, Alex.
Hope this helps you along... Ed
I guess I should ask exactly how much of the interior colors is one going to see through the small windows as the car passes at 45 mph?
Ed,
I did buy some of those strip LED's and removed them from some of my passenger cars as I thought it would mess up my DCC. I bought full wave rectified LEDs to run with DCC and they work fine. Do the LED strips light in forward and reverse?
I always thought that LEDs were polarity sensitive - unless DCC's square wave or whatever it produces is an alternate positive and negative.
I thought running a layout was going to be easy :-))
Guess you have to become a "jack of all trades" including electrical engineer.
Chris
I just installed one in a Walthers passenger car and I did use a 500 mA 25 volt rectifier because, 1, I had it on hand and 2, I thought it might reduce some of the current going to the lighting strip.
However before I installed it in the car I clipped it to the rails using test leads and it lit pretty brightly (I have about 13.4 volts at the rail) and none of the resistors on the light strip got warm at all. There are three LEDs in series with a SMD resistor in each segment of the strip lights.
I allowed one of the LEDs to pass over the end wall so the vestibule gets lit up too!
Another problem I had with the 22 Roomette cars is that the center aisle gets lit but you can't see that through the walls! So I can run two LED strips down each side of the car and light the rooms where it can be seen through the windows.
I like to have the vestibules lit and on a few cars I cut out the top of the "Dutch door" and put a conductor standing there "lookin' 'em over" I'd like to get a conductor with his arm stuck out like he's going to pick up train orders "on the fly".
The LED strip lights are so flexible they permit more adaptable lighting possibilities.
I have played around with LEDs powered by the DCC rails. On many of my locomotives I wire an LED directly to the rail pickups to keep the number boards lit ALL the time. I just use a 1k resistor and any 3mm white LED.
Yes, there is AC on the rails in DCC but from what I gather the LED is only using half the wave (there are others on these forums who can explain it better than myself) and I'm sure there are circuits out there with capacitors and voltage regulators that will probably serve to keep the LED from going poof but as long as I have the 1k resistor on either leg of the LED it works for me.
I've been using just that as a tester to look for dead spots on the rails.
Direction doesn't change anything on the rails, it is only a digital packet addressed to the decoder. There have been a bunch of circuits out there for "flicker-free" lighting using capacitors. My MTH streamlined cars stay lit for about 40 seconds after removing them from power. The heavyweights only stay lit for about 15 seconds, they must have used a smaller cap.
I have just followed the advice of others here and experimented on my own with LEDs in passenger car lighting. Perhaps I can get a few photos posted soon, when time permits...
Have fun, Ed
I tried the LED strips on my layout and it was "BRIGHT" (I have 15 volts or more on the track) but like you said you could use a resistor to lower the voltage. It works on both polarities so that's good.
With my T1 going to the shop for repairs - the passenger cars are on hold for now.
But thanks for the heads up on being to able to use the LED strips - it will make it easier to convert the cars when I get them. I found some LED strips with a built in resistance - so you can make them as bright or dark as you want for you cars using a screwdriver.
I remember the days before becoming involved in "trains" how simple life was then. But that would have denied me the pleasure of model railroading. No regrets (only a shrinking bank balance).
:-)
Chris ---
If you haven't bought those Bachmann cars yet, I'd suggest holding off for a while. Broadway Limited has just announced in their new catalog that they will be selling P70 coaches. Two versions will be offered: standard P70, and upgraded P70R, which had air conditioning. The P70R would probably be best for your purposes because T1 Duplexes were used on the main line long distance trains, which generally had A/C. The catalog says the new P70's will handle a 22" radius curve, which should suit your purposes. The price seems to be fairly close to the announced price for the Bachmann cars, and these cars probably won't have the kinds of coupler problems found on the Bachmanns.
One or two Walthers PRR B60 baggage cars, an R50 express reefer, plus a couple BLI coaches, plus a Bachmann PRR D78 diner (fix the couplers!), plus a couple sleepers from Walthers or Branchline, will produce a very presentable PRR mainline train of the 1940's. The only questionable things about this suggested consist are the sleepers' ability to negotiate your 22" curves. If that's a problem, you may have to go with shorties like Athearn's.
Have you resolved the T1's tender problems?
I got a good deal on ebay - so I got 4 cars to work with. I want to experiment with the lighting effects and see how I can get them looking like a real passenger car. I won't rule out those new cars.
My wife will freak if the new cars are expensive and go to the mall and buy all kinds of shoes, dresses, sneakers, and anything else she can think of. So it's a balance :-)