Unless they are the really old original Custom-Line turnouts, they do not need gaps if the frog is powered. The frog is completely isolated from the entire turnout, and the diverging frog rails connect UNDER the frog to the respective closure rail.
I'd be wary of anything put on the track that remains wet or damp. SHort term this may help, but long term it will attract dust and dirt and make things worse. Same with wheel pickups and wipers. Rail Zip is nothing more than automatic transmission fluid packaged in a convenient size.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
middleman 'Can't find a brand name on the tube I have(bought several years ago from Caboose Hobbies). Bachmann has a conductive lube,Micro Mark sells some,Aero lubricants makes some intended for brushes,commutators,though they may be too thin for this purpose. The lube I have is a rather thick,black oil in a syringe.'Probably just gear oil with graphite added. If you do find/try one make sure it is plastic compatible,and use it sparingly,conductive lubes can cause havoc if they get into areas that should be insulated. I'm not sure about rail conductivity products - they may have no lubrication value. Maybe others here who have more experience with these will comment. As a first step,a thorough cleaning of the axle ends/plate area might help..although that didn't do much in my case. Mike
'Can't find a brand name on the tube I have(bought several years ago from Caboose Hobbies). Bachmann has a conductive lube,Micro Mark sells some,Aero lubricants makes some intended for brushes,commutators,though they may be too thin for this purpose.
The lube I have is a rather thick,black oil in a syringe.'Probably just gear oil with graphite added. If you do find/try one make sure it is plastic compatible,and use it sparingly,conductive lubes can cause havoc if they get into areas that should be insulated. I'm not sure about rail conductivity products - they may have no lubrication value. Maybe others here who have more experience with these will comment. As a first step,a thorough cleaning of the axle ends/plate area might help..although that didn't do much in my case.
Mike
You might be on to something. I didn't have any of the lube you mentioned on hand so I tried a product I've used for years called Rail Zip. It's a liquid with a red tint and is intended to remove oxidation from rails and improve conductivity. I think it was much more popular in the brass track days but I still use it and it works. I applied it to the points you suggested. At first, the improvement was minimal but than noticeable. It has all but eliminated stalling on the #6 turnouts. I am still having sporadic problems on the #8s which I use at the entrances to the yards. They have a much longer frog and the wheels barely bridge the frog. At first it stalled every time but the more I ran the loco back and forth, the better the performance. Sometimes it still stops dead. Sometimes there is a momentary hesitation. Sometimes it passes over the #8 frog without even a slight hesitation. I also have a diamond with insulated frogs and I'm having similar issues on that as well. I did notice after a while that I needed to apply some more Rail Zip so I don't know if this is going to be a permanent fix or a stop gap. In either case, it is a vast improvement over what I had and if it turns out to be a permanent fix, it is a lot cheaper than adding capacitors or replacing decoders.
middleman Others posting have already suggested that the electrical path between the axles and frames is not very reliable. An older thread on this subject advised using conductive lube at the axle/frame contact points. I did this,and it greatly reduced the stalling issues with my BLI SW's. If they sit unused for an extended period,I have to run them back and forth a bit(redistribute the lube,I guess).You might try this,see if it helps,before taking more drastic steps. Mike
Others posting have already suggested that the electrical path between the axles and frames is not very reliable. An older thread on this subject advised using conductive lube at the axle/frame contact points. I did this,and it greatly reduced the stalling issues with my BLI SW's. If they sit unused for an extended period,I have to run them back and forth a bit(redistribute the lube,I guess).You might try this,see if it helps,before taking more drastic steps.
Sounds like it might be worth a try. Do you have a brand name and a place where I can get some of that conductive lube? I have a couple products that are improve conductivity on the rails. Would those work as well?
If anyone does desire to power a Atlas customline turnout after it has already been installed/ballasted. In the metal frog, where there is a hole built into the casting. Drill all the way through that hole with the same size drill bit, then take a #24 solid insulated wire, strip the end at the frog and put a 90 degree bend in it so it overlaps the hole a tiny bit. Then use a 1-72 Black machine screw insert in the hole with the wire and with a little pressure, you can tighten that screw into the hole flush with the wire in it. You can paint the screw flat black and it really is not that noticeable. If You need gaps beyond the frog, just cuts gaps in the rails, no need to fill them, unless you want to. I have sucessfully used that procedure on quite a few Atlas turnouts, that I later found needed to be powered, for very slow speed operation. I either connected them to a relay or used the Caboose ground throws with the switch for power, they all work very reliablely.
Take Care!
Frank
jecorbettIt would seem strange to me that too identical locos would both have the same bad wiring and show exactly the same symptoms.
I had a pair of Athearn SW1500s in a consist, purchased at different times from different shops, that both exhibited the same behavior, requiring me to disassemble them and tune them up. They started to run badly at about the same time, stalling on... Atlas #6 frogs. They both had improperly stripped and connected wires between the trucks and decoder, and the decoder and motor. They both had paint/blackener inside the axle bearing slots in the trucks that interfered with contact. If both locos are assembled at the same factory, they can most certainly suffer from the same quality control issues and/or the same design flaws that require user tuning to correct. Bad wiring connections are VERY common in today's RTR locos, and stalling on frogs is a typical symptom.
The fix that made my SW1500s reliable cost nothing beyond some time on my part. Other models have required similar fixes.
Rob Spangler
Doughless I run switchers and feel your pain. At least sound is not a requirement, because there are very few switchers with onboard sound that do not have problems running over unpowered frogs....not just Atlas turnouts either, IMO. My experience says the yellow/red box Atlas S series switchers have the best electrical pickup of any switcher, not to mention being really heavy. I think converting them to DCC can be a project, but not too difficult with plenty of info on the net for guidance. On second thought, the Athearn switchers I owned were pretty reliable over Atlas turnouts too.
I run switchers and feel your pain. At least sound is not a requirement, because there are very few switchers with onboard sound that do not have problems running over unpowered frogs....not just Atlas turnouts either, IMO.
My experience says the yellow/red box Atlas S series switchers have the best electrical pickup of any switcher, not to mention being really heavy. I think converting them to DCC can be a project, but not too difficult with plenty of info on the net for guidance.
On second thought, the Athearn switchers I owned were pretty reliable over Atlas turnouts too.
Thanks. I'll keep these suggestions in mind in the event that adding Keep Alive technology to the current switchers turns out not to be an option. I currently am waiting for a reply to the e-mail I sent TCS tech support telling me if I can add a capacitor to my current decoders or if they have a replacement decoder with the Keep Alive feature. These switchers are about 10 years old and what little information I could get from their website seems to indicate those decoders might not be upgradeable.
dinwittydon't these turnouts have metal frogs? That is easily powerable. #6 Atlas turnouts do.
They aren't easily powerable if they are already ballasted and there are about 50 of them. If you power the frog, then you must insulate the diverging ends other wise there will be a short. That is the reason the frogs were insulated in the first place. I haven't looked at what it requires to power an Atlas frog but I do have a few Walther's turnouts with powered frogs and I use a Peco accessory switch attached to the switch motor to change the polarity of the frog depending on which route is selecteded. I'm guessing Atlas would require something similar.
As I stated in the OP, powering the frogs is not an option. There is only one option on the table. Get switch engines that can negotiate insulated frogs. Whether that is best done by modifying the current switch engines or acquiring new ones is what I am still trying to figure out.
carl425 BRAKIE All major railroads including the N&W used switchers in their yard since these switchers was designed and built to replae steam switch engines...N&W favored Alco's T-5 switcher. "Favored" is a bit generous. The large majority of switchers on the N&W came from NKP and WAB. The N&W only made one purchase of diesel "switchers". They bought 40 T-6's (not T-5) in 1959. They were used primarily at Lambert's Point and Portsmouth Ohio. In the yards along the line like Crewe, Shaffers Crossing, Bluefield and Williamson switching work was done with road engines - usually in multiples. And technically, since the "T" stands for "transfer" you can sort of make the case that these aren't switchers.
BRAKIE All major railroads including the N&W used switchers in their yard since these switchers was designed and built to replae steam switch engines...N&W favored Alco's T-5 switcher.
"Favored" is a bit generous. The large majority of switchers on the N&W came from NKP and WAB. The N&W only made one purchase of diesel "switchers". They bought 40 T-6's (not T-5) in 1959. They were used primarily at Lambert's Point and Portsmouth Ohio. In the yards along the line like Crewe, Shaffers Crossing, Bluefield and Williamson switching work was done with road engines - usually in multiples.
And technically, since the "T" stands for "transfer" you can sort of make the case that these aren't switchers.
N&W did indeed favor the T-6 since those was the only yard switchers they bought.
T-6 was used in Portsmouth,Ohio as hump engines(a set of three units was used) and for flat switching.In Columbus the T-6 was used in yard and urban local service..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
- Douglas
ricktrains4824 With two switch engines with a short wheelbase having the same issue, I see a couple options: 1. Hardware the two together. Bigger wheelbase, more power pickup. 2. Replace with a roadswitcher set. Bigger wheelbase. 3. Modify the switchers to have keep-alive. My preference is in the order as I presented them. I would also look at other options, but you have stated they are not an option. (Powering frogs, replacing turnouts.... Not even going to mention past this, as you stated not an option here more than once.) I just feel that replacing with another short wheelbase loco will not help here... Unless these two you currently have both have the pickup issue in the wiring/contacts (possible, but not the most likely....) it is appearing to be a track issue. Another unit with the same size wheelbase just does not seem like a viable option here to me. If you use both together, just add jumpers between them, making them much more likely to work over the dead spots, as now you have a much larger wheelbase, so you should not have the issue you here are having. Replacing with a roadswitcher will provide a larger wheelbase, avoiding the issue. Keep alive option is an option, but with that many frogs, depending on speed, I am not sure it will solve enough of the problem, or if you even can add it to the stock decoder installed already... Someone else may have a better answer on this one. Each of these will cost something though, so..... Which would you rather spend on, time and little materials to hard wire, money on replacing with larger wheelbase loco's, or time and money for keep alive?
With two switch engines with a short wheelbase having the same issue, I see a couple options:
1. Hardware the two together. Bigger wheelbase, more power pickup.
2. Replace with a roadswitcher set. Bigger wheelbase.
3. Modify the switchers to have keep-alive.
My preference is in the order as I presented them. I would also look at other options, but you have stated they are not an option. (Powering frogs, replacing turnouts.... Not even going to mention past this, as you stated not an option here more than once.)
I just feel that replacing with another short wheelbase loco will not help here... Unless these two you currently have both have the pickup issue in the wiring/contacts (possible, but not the most likely....) it is appearing to be a track issue. Another unit with the same size wheelbase just does not seem like a viable option here to me.
If you use both together, just add jumpers between them, making them much more likely to work over the dead spots, as now you have a much larger wheelbase, so you should not have the issue you here are having.
Replacing with a roadswitcher will provide a larger wheelbase, avoiding the issue.
Keep alive option is an option, but with that many frogs, depending on speed, I am not sure it will solve enough of the problem, or if you even can add it to the stock decoder installed already... Someone else may have a better answer on this one.
Each of these will cost something though, so..... Which would you rather spend on, time and little materials to hard wire, money on replacing with larger wheelbase loco's, or time and money for keep alive?
I have a very large (by MR standards) yard and my operating scheme calls for the two switchers to work independently on opposite ends of the yard. While I am a lone wolf operator and would never have both working at the same time, I like the idea of having one on each end of the yard to sort trains in opposite directions. Occassionally I have a complex switching maneuver in which having two switchers saves the trouble of doing a runaround move the length of a sizeable yard. For example, I have a daily milk train that drops a block of milk cars for the dairy processing plant which has a facing point spur. I can have one switcher take the block off the front of the milk train and park it on a clear track. The switcher at the opposite end can then shove those cars into the facing point spur.
So that leaves us with options 2 & 3. Keep alive would be my preference. I currently have an e-mail in to TCS tech support to find out if they either have a standalone capacitor or a replacement decoder with keep alive that I can install in these engines. If that turns out not to be an option, I have several Bachmann GP7s which could be pressed into duty as yard switchers if need be. I'm not sure how prototypical that would be in 1956, but it might be my only option. Having only recently begun full fledged operations, I find making up and breaking up trains to be a lot of fun but that fun is somewhat diminished when the equipment doesn't work the way it is supposed to.
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
wjstix Interesting problem, as my first response was going to be to recommend the BLI NW-2/SW-7. I have two, and they're two of the best running engines I've ever had. On a previous layout, I tried using a couple of Atlas #6 turnouts, but took them out because of the 'dead frog' and derailment problems. I use Kato Unitrack with their #6 turnouts and the engines work fine. Before giving up on the engines, I would try them on someone else's layout to see how they run.
Interesting problem, as my first response was going to be to recommend the BLI NW-2/SW-7. I have two, and they're two of the best running engines I've ever had.
On a previous layout, I tried using a couple of Atlas #6 turnouts, but took them out because of the 'dead frog' and derailment problems. I use Kato Unitrack with their #6 turnouts and the engines work fine. Before giving up on the engines, I would try them on someone else's layout to see how they run.
As I pointed out in the OP. Replacing or modifying the turnouts is not an option. There are too many of them and it would cost way too much in terms of time and expense to do that. I have a 12 track double ended yard and two industrial beltlines that parallel the double track mainline on either side of it. Each of those beltlines has numerous industrial spurs. On top of that I have a five track stub end coach yard. Without even counting them, it is probably about 50 turnouts that would need to be replaced. Powering the frogs is going to require tearing up much of what I have. I might as well blow it up and start over.
What I need are switch engines that aren't going to stall passing over an insulated frog. That means modifying the two switchers I have or replacing them. The Keep Alive capacitor might be an opition for modifying them. If not, the cheapest solution is going to be replacing them.
wp8thsub jecorbett I've done about all the tuning up I can do with these. Just to make sure - have you checked every wiring connection to be certain it's making proper contact, and every wire itself to ensure it's not broken inside the insulation somewhere? If there are any connections with plastic clips, have you removed the plastic and soldered the joints? Have you cleaned all the contact surfaces inside the trucks (e.g. axle bearings) that could be fouled with oxidation or lubrication? Your descriptions are increasingly sounding like bad wiring between the trucks and decoder and/or electrical contact issues other than with the treads of the wheels themselves.
jecorbett I've done about all the tuning up I can do with these.
Just to make sure - have you checked every wiring connection to be certain it's making proper contact, and every wire itself to ensure it's not broken inside the insulation somewhere? If there are any connections with plastic clips, have you removed the plastic and soldered the joints? Have you cleaned all the contact surfaces inside the trucks (e.g. axle bearings) that could be fouled with oxidation or lubrication?
Your descriptions are increasingly sounding like bad wiring between the trucks and decoder and/or electrical contact issues other than with the treads of the wheels themselves.
It would seem strange to me that too identical locos would both have the same bad wiring and show exactly the same symptoms. They stall out when bridging the insulated frogs of my Atlas #6 turnouts when passing over them at switching speed. If passing over them at higher speed, that will hesitate when passing over the frogs. It happens everytime.
jecorbettI've done about all the tuning up I can do with these.
For the "intermitancy", I would recommend working very hard at getting some sort of keep-alive in the existing locos. It might likely require some top quality mechanical fiddling and soldering. Them's the breaks.
I wonder if there's any switcher that will reliably get through insulated frogs. Installing them was an unfortunate decision, but I understand the water has passed under that bridge.
Right now, the switcher that I would choose would be the Atlas Alco S-2. It comes with great sound (as does the current Bowser Baldwin). But it's got a cast metal frame, so it weighs more than the Bowser. And we all know what weight will do in a switcher. If you don't need/want sound, I'd also consider the latest Walthers SW1. It, too, has a cast metal frame. It appears very easy to convert to DCC--a drop in TCS decoder.
But I do keep recalling the intermitancy. And it gets me thinking that ANY switcher on this layout would need keep-alive. So there's gonna be some work involved.
BUT, I will mention that I have two switchers that I run back-to-back. And I have them permanently wired together. SIXTEEN WHEEL PICKUP. They/it NEVER stalls. And they pull nicely, too.
Two of the Atlas Alcos permanently back-to-back (wired together, or course) would be mighty sweet. They'd pull well, and sound great.
Ed
I share your issues with SD 7 BLI Loco. I have a new SP SD 7 Black Widow, great detailand sound, but very sensitive on my layout not just frog issues on the points. I also use Atlas snap swotches. My BLI decoder does have the capacitor on it, so I under cut at the shorting point so the wheels do contact the crossing rail with opposite polarity. The trucks are larger being 6 axles. I sent mine unit back to BLI under warranty to check it out. I just received my Genesis SD70ACe Catepiller demo which is much larger length and truck wheel size. I modified points for all units I have. Mostly I run SD-35s Kato (which work the best) , also SW1500s. My BLI unit stopped constantly even on straights.
Marty
Marty www.pbase.com/Hejhog
you tube/martyHejhog1
What made Altas turnouts bulletproof for me (I dropped wires to power the frogs but never hooked them up) was to have feeders on all 3 legs. All my locos, of all sizes, would run through on step 1 with no stalls and not even a headlight flicker. So I never ended up hooking up the frog power.
Jecorbett,
From your description of how it stalls I wonder if all axles are picking up power and conducting it from the rails to the decoder. You might try;
As other have suggested there may be continuity issues in the turnouts. Check all segments of rail to be sure they are all getting power.
But if you decide to get a new switcher, I can highly recommend the Baldwin S-12 and the EMD VO 1000, both by Bowser (formerly Stewart Models). They are fairly heavy with good pick up and very smooth runners even at low speeds.
TomLutman Perhaps it's not the wheels themselves that are having electrical pickup issues, but the pickups/frame that contacts the wheels. Does it stall on both trucks, going both directions? ( engine turned around, to test left/right sides) What are you using to switch the turnout? Perhaps there is a way to juice that frog as well.
Perhaps it's not the wheels themselves that are having electrical pickup issues, but the pickups/frame that contacts the wheels.
Does it stall on both trucks, going both directions? ( engine turned around, to test left/right sides)
What are you using to switch the turnout? Perhaps there is a way to juice that frog as well.
Yes, it stalls in both directions. Since only one rail has a dead spot at the frogs, I would expect I'm drawing power from all four wheels on the opposite side. The problem is when only two of the four wheels on the frog rail are in a power zone. That's when I get a hesitation and it stops completely if I am moving at swithing speeds. It always stops at the point where one wheel from each truck is in the insulated zone.
I've done tests which tell me both trucks are powered. With the loco stationary and the bell turned on, the bell rings continually if I lift either truck off the rails. When the loco hits the dead spot with one axle from each truck in the dead zone, everything shuts off. Motor, lights, sound.
Atlas turnouts can be modified to power the frogs but as I said in the OP, that is way too much retrofitting for me to even consider that option. I assume they would work something like the Walthers turnouts which have a powered frog but the rails have to be insulated on the diverging ends to prevent a short. I would be more inclinded to just use a road switcher as a yard switcher if I can't find a workable solution for the shorter locos.
You might want to take a look at this old thread on the subject of the BLI SW7, some tips and maybe a fix for You. There is a how to PDF for it....but I can't find it now and I thought I saved it. I did it to mine sometime ago and it improved quite a lot. One of the big reason's for it having some of the problem's, is a fact that it is a very light engine...but really no place to add weight.
Read this thread. BLI SW7 Stalls:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/143212.aspx #1592171
Good Luck!
Although the Keep Alive option looks interesting I've lifted the shell to see how daunting a task it would be. The decoder has a four wire plug attached to the end of it and those wires connect to another small board under the roof of the cab. I assume the red and black wires are for engine power and the other two control the headlights. I haven't looked at what capaciter would be appropriate for BLI's SW7. If it's something that can just be plugged in, that would be a lot more appealing than if I have to start soldering. My soldering skills are not exactly top drawer.
rrinker Did these come with axles with traction tires and also ones without? With traction tires you're removing a good chunk of your pickup footprint. If they came with optional non-traction tire wheelsets, put those in. No, it won;t pull as much, but the electrical pickup will be greatly improved. Or if you always run them together, install jumpers between the track pickups, so if one hits a dead spot the other one will still be picking up power and pass it on. --Randy
Did these come with axles with traction tires and also ones without? With traction tires you're removing a good chunk of your pickup footprint. If they came with optional non-traction tire wheelsets, put those in. No, it won;t pull as much, but the electrical pickup will be greatly improved. Or if you always run them together, install jumpers between the track pickups, so if one hits a dead spot the other one will still be picking up power and pass it on.
To answer your first question, no they do not have traction tires. As far as I can tell, all eight wheels are designed to pick up power. One of the tests I run is to turn the bell on when the loco is stationary and then lift one truck and then the other. The bell remains on constantly when I raise up either truck. The problem comes when the loco is moving. The wheelbase is just long enough to bridge the insulated frog of an Atlas #6 turnout. The front axle of the leading truck and the rear axle of the trailing truck will both be on powered track. However when that happens, if the loco is moving at switching speed, it will stop dead. If it is moving a little faster, it might coast through that position. Once I have both axles from either truck on powered track, it keeps moving even if the other has both axles in the dead zone although I will see a hesitation when it goes over the frog. If I position it by hand so that only one axle from each truck is on powered track. It's completely dead.
I have an Athearn RTR SW1500, which runs great on DC. It is DCC ready, and is equipped with a quick plug. The details are great for the price. There is an undecorated version, and Athearn also offers an SW1000 which is the same underneath. I would highly recommend the Athearn RTR SW1500 or SW1000.