ATLANTIC CENTRAL ... Modelers will plod along at their modeling goals, always spending what is for them an afordable sum, for decades. ... Sheldon
...
Modelers will plod along at their modeling goals, always spending what is for them an afordable sum, for decades. ...
Sheldon
Yep, that's me. And after 40 years I have enough stuff in 3 scales to keep me busy throughout retirement. I still buy stuff of course, but at a comfortable amount. These days I mostly look for old kits that aren't made anymore, but I'll pick up new stuff that meets a need (or just looks neat) and isn't too expensive.
Enjoy
Paul
PM Railfan sandwiche alone cost $5.15
Russell
Sheldon - Actually my friend, i think the opposite. The older model was not much profit (but profit none the less or they wouldnt be here today). I think todays business model is. Although i consider it gouging, not "too much profit".
The older model saw prices right where they should be. A freight car for $5 to $7 (rtr or not), locos for $12 to $25 (diesel [Atlas was a little bit high in those days]) and steam was $65 to $150. THAT is what they cost last time the prices were correct... price = value of product.
Since then, this 'newer' business model has taken hold and prices are skyrocketting out of control. And here we are. I dont see any change in our models (yes, save for the newer fancy details etc., but they dont cost $200 to add those!!) except for the human side of it.
And truth be known, im not about to pay for someone else to live in luxury for nothin more than what they do when I am trying to build my railroad.... which is MY luxury. Its my money, not theirs. And the products dont warrant the cost. If no one ever said anything, it will continue to rise unabated.
Now, as far as my situation, yes, my goodness grief im tired of answering personal questions. But one last time..... yes, i have run a business. A few actually. Yes even a hobby shop (was my first job) I have co-owned a business with my brother. Who, btw, still has it and is registered as a class C contractor. The company is 20 years old. I signed off the company to do other things in life. So yes, i know how the money flow works.
Yes im educated. 2 degrees, half a dozen certificates, and a bunch of other pieces of toilet paper that arent really worth a hoot to me, or anyone else. Of the first degree, i hold a minor in business mgmt.
Again, i plead, i beg you, take the focus off of me (or anyone else for that matter) and lets try to FOCUS on the problem. Let me say it again because no one seems to be getting it.....
FOCUS ON THE PROBLEM
Because i can state categorically, we were given this thread by good graces. If it continues like it is without adding positive discussion..... it can easily be taken away. A reader would have to be pretty dim to think Cousin Vinnie isnt watching! I personally would like to stay in his good graces.
PM Railfan
Oh...anyone want to take a guess at at what ONE of these will set you back?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3K_fZDvINs
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
PM Railfan,
So you claim to know what the out of the container price is for an Athearn Genesis F uint? Or the typical Athearn RTR freight car?
Enlighten us - in hard numbers.
Athearn #96372 - 50' flat car with two vans, MSRP $34.98, Trainworld price $27.99
What is the "off the boat" price and what is Athearn charging Trainworld? Tell us please.
Then, just maybe I will agree with you.
PS - I know what Athearn is charging Trainworld.......it is that other number that reveals the truth.
PM Railfan Sheldon - Actually my friend, i think the opposite. The older model was not much profit (but profit none the less or they wouldnt be here today). I think todays business model is. Although i consider it gouging, not "too much profit". The older model saw prices right where they should be. A freight car for $5 to $7 (rtr or not), locos for $12 to $25 (diesel [Atlas was a little bit high in those days]) and steam was $65 to $150. THAT is what they cost last time the prices were correct... price = value of product. Since then, this 'newer' business model has taken hold and prices are skyrocketting out of control. And here we are. I dont see any change in our models (yes, save for the newer fancy details etc., but they dont cost $200 to add those!!) except for the human side of it. And truth be known, im not about to pay for someone else to live in luxury for nothin more than what they do when I am trying to build my railroad.... which is MY luxury. Its my money, not theirs. And the products dont warrant the cost. If no one ever said anything, it will continue to rise unabated. Now, as far as my situation, yes, my goodness grief im tired of answering personal questions. But one last time..... yes, i have run a business. A few actually. Yes even a hobby shop (was my first job) I have co-owned a business with my brother. Who, btw, still has it and is registered as a class C contractor. The company is 20 years old. I signed off the company to do other things in life. So yes, i know how the money flow works. Yes im educated. 2 degrees, half a dozen certificates, and a bunch of other pieces of toilet paper that arent really worth a hoot to me, or anyone else. Of the first degree, i hold a minor in business mgmt. Again, i plead, i beg you, take the focus off of me (or anyone else for that matter) and lets try to FOCUS on the problem. Let me say it again because no one seems to be getting it..... FOCUS ON THE PROBLEM Because i can state categorically, we were given this thread by good graces. If it continues like it is without adding positive discussion..... it can easily be taken away. A reader would have to be pretty dim to think Cousin Vinnie isnt watching! I personally would like to stay in his good graces. PM Railfan
The value of any commodity is what the consumer is willing to pay for it. People vote with their dollars. If a manufacturer produces a locomotive which costs $150 to make and distribute and puts an MSRP on it of $500, maybe 100 people buy it. The profit is $35,000. If they lower the cost to $300, maybe 300 people buy it. The profit is $45,000. If he lowers it to $200, maybe 500 people buy it. The profit is just $25,000. So where do you think they set the MSRP. On the other hand, if 200 people were willing to spend $500 for it, the profit climbs to $70,000. In that case, the higher MSRP would prevail and 100 people who were only willing to pay $300 aren't going to get one.
Of course that is an oversimplification because more than the manufacturer shares in the profit and not every retailer is going to charge the same price, but it makes the point. If enough people are willing to pay a certain price for an item, that is the what that item is worth.
My gripe with manufacturers is not price but quality. I don't mind paying a high price if I get quality in return. Too often that is not the case. There is way too much junk being sold at a high end price. In addition way too many manufacturers are producing rolling stock and locos which require a jeweler's eyes and hands to be able to perform the most routine tasks such as swap the couplers. I remember which companies sell me junk and which ones sell me products that are extremely difficult to work with and I simply don't do business with them again. If you don't give me my money's worth, you aren't going to get any more of my money.
csxns PM Railfan sandwiche alone cost $5.15 Here in Gastonia NC where i live i get a Big Mac and a large dollar Tea for five dollars and fiftythree cents.
Here in Gastonia NC where i live i get a Big Mac and a large dollar Tea for five dollars and fiftythree cents.
The economy version is a McDouble add your own Thousand Island dressing.
blownout cylinder Oh...anyone want to take a guess at at what ONE of these will set you back? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3K_fZDvINs
Im guessing not as much as one of these. I own two.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FYTp8Fsrus
Was never much of a Moog fan, kinda prefered the Boss line. But that sure is a nice boom box in the video.
IRONROOSTER The economy version is a McDouble add your own Thousand Island dressing. Paul
how to scratchbuild a bigmac! i love it.
jecorbettMy gripe with manufacturers is not price but quality. I don't mind paying a high price if I get quality in return. Too often that is not the case. There is way too much junk being sold at a high end price.
I fully agree even at street prices..I stop buying Athearn exRoundhouse FMC boxcars because anywhere from 1-3 stirrups was found laying in the car's tray.These cars are still a foot to wide as well.
As far as the former BB cars selling for high RTR prices with nothing more then metal wheels added is a joke..The tooling and R&D costs has long been paid for many times over since these cars is 50 years old--some may be older with the same errors..As was pointed out a ton of plastic pellets can produce a lot of models.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE jecorbett My gripe with manufacturers is not price but quality. I don't mind paying a high price if I get quality in return. Too often that is not the case. There is way too much junk being sold at a high end price. I fully agree even at street prices..I stop buying Athearn exRoundhouse FMC boxcars because anywhere from 1-3 stirrups was found laying in the car's tray.These cars are still a foot to wide as well. As far as the former BB cars selling for high RTR prices with nothing more then metal wheels added is a joke..The tooling and R&D costs has long been paid for many times over since these cars is 50 years old--some may be older with the same errors..As was pointed out a ton of plastic pellets can produce a lot of models.
jecorbett My gripe with manufacturers is not price but quality. I don't mind paying a high price if I get quality in return. Too often that is not the case. There is way too much junk being sold at a high end price.
You might be right on R&D costs but not Tooling. The cost for tooling is for mold making. Molds do not last forever. Use them so many times and you have to then recreate them. Also molds get damaged. Take Atlas, when they were moving molds from one plant to anouther, they had some molds damaged. This lead to longer time between batches which lead to higher costs.
Has anyone considered the possibility that some Athearn BB design decisions made long ago- the thick stirrups and molded on grab irons as well as the oversized boxcar doorway hinges- were made as a conscious effort to improve the durability of the product, rather than to risk the easy breakability potential of more true to scale features? And that this rationale made for a better product, aimed at a wide demographic (age- wise) consumer market? Today, a different market has evolved to demand greater fidelity to prototype, with the increased costs of doing so passed on to the consumer. Higher prices have been the result of this demand.
Still, I wonder if manufacturers have missed out on an opportunity to serve a larger market, inclusive of those who are less fastidious about total accuracy and more concerned with buying something that can be handled with less delicacy?
Cedarwoodron
cedarwoodron Has anyone considered the possibility that some Athearn BB design decisions made long ago- the thick stirrups and molded on grab irons as well as the oversized boxcar doorway hinges- were made as a conscious effort to improve the durability of the product, rather than to risk the easy breakability potential of more true to scale features? And that this rationale made for a better product, aimed at a wide demographic (age- wise) consumer market? Today, a different market has evolved to demand greater fidelity to prototype, with the increased costs of doing so passed on to the consumer. Higher prices have been the result of this demand. Still, I wonder if manufacturers have missed out on an opportunity to serve a larger market, inclusive of those who are less fastidious about total accuracy and more concerned with buying something that can be handled with less delicacy? Cedarwoodron
Accurail has essentially replaced the low priced Athearn BB kits with the type of features you mentioned. I'm fine with that level of detail. In fact I prefer it. Yes that fine detail looks nice if you are displaying it on a shelf or taking photos but who sees it when it is rolling in a train. Most people's eyes aren't going to be drawn to the fine detail whether we are operating or just running trains.
Accurail has taken care of the one big gripe I had with Athearn BB. Their coupler pockets are a vast improvement over Athearn's metal clips over the plastic nubs. The beauty of Accurai's coupler system is in their simplicity. A simple box with a cover plate and a screw. I wish it would become the standard for the hobby. In less than five minutes I can install whatever type of coupler I choose on both ends. Even a hornhook if that is what I want. Other manufacturers have used a similar system but it seems with the high end cars that try to make it as difficult as possible to do a simple coupler replacement. Kadee wins the prize in that regard. They make the best couplers on the market but for that reason alone I will never buy another of their rolling stock. And even the ones who use the screw and cover plate method seem to be in a competition to see who can make the tiniest screws. Hint to the manufacturers. Nobody is going to see the screws. Make them big enough we don't have to be jewelers to install them.
Gee, it's nice to have a thread to rant in without having to apologize for doing so.
IRONROOSTERMcDouble
A few random thoughts:
Many Athearn cars do now have coupler pockets with covers and screws - because they are upgraded Roundhouse cars. But I have never had any problems with the metal covers.....
Larry, dies wear out, and need replacing. True, much of the current Athearn RTR are the same items that date back to the late 50's, early 60's, and everywhere in between then and now.
But metal wheels do cost more, and the MUCH better paint work costs a lot more.
And, as I explained earlier, in years past Athearn did all it could to hold down prices while other raised prices. So it is easy to compare todays prices with prices that were actually artifically low back then. Much of the Athearn line was still $2-$3 while TrainMinature, Walthers, Roundhouse and others were more like $3-$5.
Eventually replacement tooling is needed and current costs to produce must be imbraced.
The detail vs durablity argument will last to the end of time just like the cost issue, the control issue, the prototype accuracy issue.
Personally I don't need durablity, I can handle fragile items, I don't lug my stuff all over town for others to man handle - BUT - I don't need the fine detail on everything either - so I buy lots of both without regard for that issue.
My main objective is very subjective - if I look at the model and if it gives a good overall impression of its prototype, that's good enough for me.
Example, I have a large fleet of 50's era piggybacks, 50' flats with two 25' trailers or one 35' trailer. Many are the old Athearn standby but with a few easy upgrades. Others are Walthers, Bachmann, Tichy, F&C - they don't need to be exact replicas of some photo, they just need to follow the spirit and practice of those cars at that time.
Inflation - inflation "calulators" are fine, but personally my own study of ecnomics puts inflation much higher than those government numbers.
Examples:
new luxry car in 1968 - $5,000, today $50,000
more specific car example - in 1969 my father bought a new Checker Marathon station wagon, modestly equiped for $3400 - a new FORD FLEX modestly equiped is $34,000
gasoline in 1968 - $.32 - today $3.00
Modest home in 1968 - $30,000 - today $300,000
And from what I see wages are similar - about 10x since 1968.
That makes a $3 Athearn car $30 before any "value added improvements' like metal wheels or better paint.
But what do I know?
And of course PM Railfan has yet to answer my earlier question - because he does not know the answer.....?
ATLANTIC CENTRALLarry, dies wear out, and need replacing. True, much of the current Athearn RTR are the same items that date back to the late 50's, early 60's, and everywhere in between then and now.
That is true but,wouldn't Athearn want to fix the flaws like the wrong end and roof type or narrow the car to scale width?
As far as metal wheels I suspect they buy those by the Gaylord box(that's a large bulk shipping box) and I doubt if the cost is all that much.
csxns IRONROOSTER McDouble No way is good as the Mack.
IRONROOSTER McDouble
No way is good as the Mack.
Is the secret in the sauce
Or is it in the advertising
Only the pickle knows for sure
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL Larry, dies wear out, and need replacing. True, much of the current Athearn RTR are the same items that date back to the late 50's, early 60's, and everywhere in between then and now. That is true but,wouldn't Athearn want to fix the flaws like the wrong end and roof type or narrow the car to scale width? As far as metal wheels I suspect they buy those by the Gaylord box(that's a large bulk shipping box) and I doubt if the cost is all that much.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Larry, dies wear out, and need replacing. True, much of the current Athearn RTR are the same items that date back to the late 50's, early 60's, and everywhere in between then and now.
That would cost even more money.....
I know some ofthe cars are somewhat "generic", but specificy which cars are you refering to?
If they had to depend on my business, McDonalds would have gone belly up a long time ago.......price is not the issue.........
While this hobby is more expensive than some hobbies it is cheaper than others. Skiing is one of my hobbies which is more expensive than model railroading. Lift tickets cost a days pay, plus gasoline, lodging, skis, clothing and accessories. Music is another of my hobbies which is more expensive. Guitars cost far more than digital locos, plus amplifiers, effects, microphones, mixers, and PAs. And then there is my muscle car hobby. I just dropped $10,000 into my camaro and it could use another $10,000. That could buy a lot of boxcars. Did I mention how much my RV costs or the fact that it costs $1 a mile to drive it?
What is sad about this hobby is that it used to be you built everything from a kit. Now you pay some factory worker in a foreign country to have your fun.
On the other hand, riding my bike at the beach and girl watching cost almost nothing!
Lone Wolf and Santa Fe While this hobby is more expensive than some hobbies it is cheaper than others. Skiing is one of my hobbies which is more expensive than model railroading. Lift tickets cost a days pay, plus gasoline, lodging, skis, clothing and accessories. Music is another of my hobbies which is more expensive. Guitars cost far more than digital locos, plus amplifiers, effects, microphones, mixers, and PAs. And then there is my muscle car hobby. I just dropped $10,000 into my camaro and it could use another $10,000. That could buy a lot of boxcars. Did I mention how much my RV costs or the fact that it costs $1 a mile to drive it? What is sad about this hobby is that it used to be you built everything from a kit. Now you pay some factory worker in a foreign country to have your fun. On the other hand, riding my bike at the beach and girl watching cost almost nothing!
But back in the day this hobby only attracted those who thought building a kit was was fun - today that is not the case.
Today there are a vast number of people in the hobby who do not enjoy building the models.
Read this forum, that issue alone in another one of the "great divides" that has the hobby more fragmented than ever.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI know some of the cars are somewhat "generic", but specificy which cars are you refering to? Sheldon
I will put it this way..ALL of them was flawed..Every Athearn BB car I have-gons,covered hoppers,ACF boxcars,86' high cubes and 50' flat cars is a scale 1' to wide.
Athearn wants top dollar for these why didn't they simply fix the flaws instead of charging top dollar for old BB cars that are flawed? I won't buy 'em since I can buy better detailed cars for the same money.The RTR ex Roundhouse FMC cars and Railgon are also a 1' to wide.
You can see this when you couple these cars with scale width cars and view at 3/4 angle.
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL I know some of the cars are somewhat "generic", but specificy which cars are you refering to? Sheldon I will put it this way..ALL of them was flawed..Every Athearn BB car I have-gons,covered hoppers,ACF boxcars,86' high cubes and 50' flat cars is a scale 1' to wide. Athearn wants top dollar for these why didn't they simply fix the flaws instead of charging top dollar for old BB cars that are flawed? I won't buy 'em since I can buy better detailed cars for the same money.The RTR ex Roundhouse FMC cars and Railgon are also a 1' to wide. You can see this when you couple these cars with scale width cars and view at 3/4 angle.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I know some of the cars are somewhat "generic", but specificy which cars are you refering to? Sheldon
OK, Just like I don't buy $80 passenger cars because the diaphragms are three feet apart - we all have different sensibilities.
While I have bought my share of new Athearn RTR in the last 10 years, most of my Athearn fleet, about 500 cars total, was bought in the $3 to $5 BB days.
In fact my average Athearn freight car has more than twice as much invested in the trucks and couplers than in the car itself.
Most all of my freight cars have Kadee sprung metal trucks with Intermountain wheelsets, as well as Kadee brand couplers. That is $7 for trucks, $4 for wheel sets, and $1.50 for couplers.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Lone Wolf and Santa Fe While this hobby is more expensive than some hobbies it is cheaper than others. Skiing is one of my hobbies which is more expensive than model railroading. Lift tickets cost a days pay, plus gasoline, lodging, skis, clothing and accessories. Music is another of my hobbies which is more expensive. Guitars cost far more than digital locos, plus amplifiers, effects, microphones, mixers, and PAs. And then there is my muscle car hobby. I just dropped $10,000 into my camaro and it could use another $10,000. That could buy a lot of boxcars. Did I mention how much my RV costs or the fact that it costs $1 a mile to drive it? What is sad about this hobby is that it used to be you built everything from a kit. Now you pay some factory worker in a foreign country to have your fun. On the other hand, riding my bike at the beach and girl watching cost almost nothing! But back in the day this hobby only attracted those who thought building a kit was was fun - today that is not the case. Today there are a vast number of people in the hobby who do not enjoy building the models. Read this forum, that issue alone in another one of the "great divides" that has the hobby more fragmented than ever. Sheldon
While I won't say I enjoy kit building, it's not a part of the hobby I hate. I still buy lots of Accurail. I can throw one of those together in 10 minues with KD 148s and P2K wheel sets. 15 minutes if I take the time to weather it.
Structure building I find a little more tedious, especially the ones that have the detail molded on and have to be hand painted. To me that is about as enjoyable as root canal.
I wouldn't mind buying a 4 set of Kato Amtrak Superliners for $100, but I can't very considering buying a $60 10-5 sleeper from Rapido Trains.
Same thing as the 2 individual cars from the Union Pacific Excursion train set for $45 on their website.
Amtrak America, 1971-Present.
angelob6660 I wouldn't mind buying a 4 set of Kato Amtrak Superliners for $100, but I can't very considering buying a $60 10-5 sleeper from Rapido Trains. Same thing as the 2 individual cars from the Union Pacific Excursion train set for $45 on their website.
Why? $60 today is the equivalent of $8.05 in 1965. By the time you assembled a Walthers kit together including trucks, couplers, super details , interior, etc., in 1965, you would have been well over $8.
Andre
That is $7 for trucks, $4 for wheel sets, and $1.50 for couplers.
So basically, your BB cars have cost you $15.50 - $17.50 piece.
Or about as much (give or take) as these: http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/HO-Scale-Freight-Cars-s/1462.htm?searching=Y&sort=3&cat=1462&show=30&page=1&brand=Athearn
Oh the humanity!!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf3mgmEdfwg
ATLANTIC CENTRALWhile I have bought my share of new Athearn RTR in the last 10 years, most of my Athearn fleet, about 500 cars total, was bought in the $3 to $5 BB days.
As was mine..
I would say 88% of my car fleet is Athearn BB and Roundhouse,2% would be Accurail..The other 10% is RTR Athearn,Atlas,ExactRail,Intermountain and Walthers.
I never ran my wide cars with my scale width cars..It only took a few mintues to change cars since my ISL was 1'x10' and I could spot 7 cars.I will be building a new one.
andrechapelon That is $7 for trucks, $4 for wheel sets, and $1.50 for couplers. So basically, your BB cars have cost you $15.50 - $17.50 piece. Or about as much (give or take) as these: http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/HO-Scale-Freight-Cars-s/1462.htm?searching=Y&sort=3&cat=1462&show=30&page=1&brand=Athearn Oh the humanity!!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf3mgmEdfwg Andre
Exactly, but even the new ones I buy loose the rigid plastic trucks and plastic couplers in favor of my prefered equipment. But the new rigid trucks with the metal wheel sets sell really well on Ebay, right along with the Bachmann DCC decoders I remove..........
jecorbett ATLANTIC CENTRAL Lone Wolf and Santa Fe While this hobby is more expensive than some hobbies it is cheaper than others. Skiing is one of my hobbies which is more expensive than model railroading. Lift tickets cost a days pay, plus gasoline, lodging, skis, clothing and accessories. Music is another of my hobbies which is more expensive. Guitars cost far more than digital locos, plus amplifiers, effects, microphones, mixers, and PAs. And then there is my muscle car hobby. I just dropped $10,000 into my camaro and it could use another $10,000. That could buy a lot of boxcars. Did I mention how much my RV costs or the fact that it costs $1 a mile to drive it? What is sad about this hobby is that it used to be you built everything from a kit. Now you pay some factory worker in a foreign country to have your fun. On the other hand, riding my bike at the beach and girl watching cost almost nothing! But back in the day this hobby only attracted those who thought building a kit was was fun - today that is not the case. Today there are a vast number of people in the hobby who do not enjoy building the models. Read this forum, that issue alone in another one of the "great divides" that has the hobby more fragmented than ever. Sheldon While I won't say I enjoy kit building, it's not a part of the hobby I hate. I still buy lots of Accurail. I can throw one of those together in 10 minues with KD 148s and P2K wheel sets. 15 minutes if I take the time to weather it. Structure building I find a little more tedious, especially the ones that have the detail molded on and have to be hand painted. To me that is about as enjoyable as root canal.
Wow, I mean no disrepect, but as I have said in the past, you are not in the same hobby as me, or at best you are in a completely different version of it.
While I buy my share of RTR, very little of it reaches the layout without some personal touch or modification.
I like running trains, but the real pleasure is creating the whole thing - the layout, the structures, the scenery, the controls, and most importantly the trains and the imaginary premise under which they exist.
Again, no disrepect, I understand how the hobby has evolved and diversified. Actually, I have cut back on the "social" side of the hobby because I found myself having less and less in common with the modelers I was spending time with.
I don't have much interest in what other people buy, I'm much more interested in what they have built or created.