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railroad on a military base?

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Posted by NILE on Saturday, November 26, 2016 10:33 PM

 

Back in the 1960's/early 1980's, SAC Simulators (Modified Passenger Cars) were on base also.

 

 

Do you have more information about these Simulator cars?  I would like to model them.  If you have pics or info I would appreciate it?

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Posted by SouthPenn on Saturday, November 26, 2016 6:53 PM

DaryllS

Right now I'm reading a book called "The History of the Ravenna Arsenal", and it goes into some detail about the railroad operations at Ravenna.  It was built in 1940-42 using narrow guage track taken from a tunnel-building job in Pennsylvania.  After the arsenal got into operation, they tore that out and installed many miles of standard guage track.  Some of the storage bunkers were only accessible by rail.

 

The tunnel project was probably for the Pennsylvania Turnpike. The tunnels were originally dug for Vanderbilts South Pennsylvania Railroad.

South Penn
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Posted by ATSFGuy on Saturday, November 26, 2016 6:17 PM

I remember seeing track around the now defunct El Toro Marine Base.

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Posted by VilePig on Saturday, November 26, 2016 5:27 PM

I was stationed at Fort Eustis in the little 1st Railway Detachment in the spring of 1975 and during that time members of our unit got the steam locomotive running in time for an open house for the Army's birthday. The locomotive made three trips around the loop before being replaced by a diesel. Not long thereafter I went to Germany and from friends who remained in the unit I learned that, following that last performance, the steam locomotive was put in the museum and never ran again. It remains there to this day. The 1st Rail Det was inactivated at the end of September 1978, putting an end to active duty railroaders in the Army. There were still rail reservists for many years to come, but they became increasingly rare. After the departure of active duty railroaders, civilian employees operating the post utility railway.

For a long time I was away from military rail matters but kept up with what was going on, and in 1994 I joined one of the last Army Reserve railway units, which included attending training courses at Fort Eustis. The steam locomotive was still in the museum at that time, and it still is today. I never heard of it ever operating again after 1975, and had that happened I'm pretty sure I would have heard about it.

Training Army railroaders (only reservists after 1978) on steam operations was pretty much just a fantasy. Given that reservists only drill one weekend a month and two weeks in the summer (and much of that time was devoted to non-rail activities -- this is, after all, the Army, not a railway company), it was all a unit could do just to keep reservists current with diesel operations.

There are some big reasons why using steam locomotives overseas wouldn't work. One is that very few, if any, reservists had any knowledge of how to operate or maintain them, and no one in uniform was being trained on steam locomotives. Another is that there was no logistical support for steam locomotives anymore. Where would the spare parts come from? It would make much more sense to deploy with diesels, which the Army last did during the Korean War when it used newly-built SW8s.

After 1975 a steam locomotive could be seen on post at Fort Eustis, but that was just the one parked in the museum next to the main road going into the post. If someone told a visitor that a steam locomotive was fired up and being used for switching operations or training railway soldiers (and there were only reservists after 1978, and they weren't based there), he was enjoying an opportunity to pull someone's leg.

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Posted by MJ4562 on Tuesday, February 24, 2015 8:42 PM

garyla
In 1970, Lackland was still had an active rail line which connected to the SP main at (I believe) a junction named "Cadet".  The power was a nicely-maintained GE center-cab diesel with USAF markings in blue and white.  I got some pictures but, like a few other things in the last 45 years, they've been misplaced.

I just took his word for it so I had to look it up on a topo map and YEP, you are correct.  There was a spur off the SP mainline head due north into the base. Looks like one spur line leading to the warehouses along Military Drive West.  If you manage to dig up those pictures I would love to see them. 

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Posted by garyla on Tuesday, February 24, 2015 2:10 PM

MJ4562

Lackland AFB TX is still around. As a training center it doesn't surprise me that it did not have railroad activity. Kelly AFB did have siginificant actitvity since it was a logistical center. It had numerous warehouses with railroad spurs.

The former arsenal in downtown San Antonio, which dated back to the mid nineteenth century, was rail served. Ft. Sam Houston, east of downtown and on the Sunset Route, had an extensive system of rail lines to serve various warehouses and facilitate the loading and unloading of troops. Those are all gone, removed about 1981. 

Camp Stanley and Camp Bullis north of San Antonio were rail served with tracks leading to ammunition bunkers.  Those were last used during the 1991 Gulf War and finally removed around 2003.

In 1970, Lackland was still had an active rail line which connected to the
SP main at (I believe) a junction named "Cadet".  The power was a nicely-maintained GE center-cab diesel with USAF markings in blue and white.  I got some pictures but, like a few other things in the last 45 years, they've been misplaced.

Two former bases in California which had some rail: 

MCAS El Toro in Orange County (now closed) had warehouses and sidings right next to the LA-San Diego ATSF main.

Norton AFB (MAC) in San Bernardino had lots of track around.  When it closed, the Orange Empire Railway Museum was allowed to harvest truckloads of rails for its use in nearby Riverside County.

 

 

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Posted by SROC99 on Tuesday, February 24, 2015 1:20 PM

I was born and raised in Hawthorne, NV and visit there once or twice a year. I also worked on the base for a few years. My last visit I seen a small switcher and an unknown diesel still working the rails on the base. The locomotive shop is still there but used only for loco storage and light maintaince. Major loco maintaince is done at the Tooele, UT Army Depot. There's around 200 miles of track inside the base. The original Mina branch was an SP line, which was once the Carson Colorado narrow gauge, but is now operated by the government and the tracks from Hawthorne to Mina have been removed. The base is an ammunition storage, maintaince, disposal, and a training center.

Sam Clarke R&D

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Posted by MJ4562 on Tuesday, February 24, 2015 7:30 AM

Lackland AFB TX is still around. As a training center it doesn't surprise me that it did not have railroad activity. Kelly AFB did have siginificant actitvity since it was a logistical center. It had numerous warehouses with railroad spurs.

The former arsenal in downtown San Antonio, which dated back to the mid nineteenth century, was rail served. Ft. Sam Houston, east of downtown and on the Sunset Route, had an extensive system of rail lines to serve various warehouses and facilitate the loading and unloading of troops. Those are all gone, removed about 1981. 

Camp Stanley and Camp Bullis north of San Antonio were rail served with tracks leading to ammunition bunkers.  Those were last used during the 1991 Gulf War and finally removed around 2003.

 

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Posted by DaryllS on Sunday, February 22, 2015 6:31 PM

Right now I'm reading a book called "The History of the Ravenna Arsenal", and it goes into some detail about the railroad operations at Ravenna.  It was built in 1940-42 using narrow guage track taken from a tunnel-building job in Pennsylvania.  After the arsenal got into operation, they tore that out and installed many miles of standard guage track.  Some of the storage bunkers were only accessible by rail.

A great book, LOTS of photos. 

Today, most military depots still have extensive rail operations to move stuff.  I was just looking at a GoogleEarth shot of the McAlester Depot in Oklahoma.  Lots of track there. 

I was at Lackland AFB TX, Chanute AFB IL, James Connolly AFB TX, Bergstrom AFB TX, and Cam Ranh Bay AB Vietnam in the last half of the 60's, but don't recall much railroad activity at any of those.  They are all gone now.

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Posted by narrow gauge nuclear on Sunday, February 22, 2015 12:54 AM

Back in the late 80's and until the mid 90's, I did some civilian engineering contract electronics work at Fort Eustis, Va.  As already mentioned, it is the army's transportation training center.  During those years, but mostly in the early 90's, on two speparate occasions, I observed Steam engine activity. (consolidation) hustling a car or two along their track on post.

Amazed, I asked about it and, yes, they still trained a few at that time on steam engine operation in case they had to operate in theater where that was still in use.  Made sense, too.  I bet that is no longer done, but couldn't say for sure.

 

Richard

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Posted by Colorado_Mac on Saturday, February 21, 2015 11:11 PM

Oh, I almost forgot an extremely interesting prototype for this topic!  When I was a contractor I did some work at NSWC (Naval Surface Warfare Center) Crane, which is located, obviously,  in Indiana. So those of you who like to model the midwest but also like the Navy can have both!

Google that bad boy, and you can see tracks, and tracks and tracks, and tracks...  I think just about every storage facility on that place had a spur.  Don't remember who ran the trains back in the early 90s when I visited, but it looks like they are still running.

Seriously.  A LOT of track.

Sean

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Posted by ruderunner on Saturday, February 21, 2015 5:59 AM

Ravenna Arsenal in Ravenna Ohio still has tracks leading to it.  Not sure if they are active (certainly not much)

The old DeLorme Gazzetter had shown the tracks in trhe aresenal, not sure if newer ones stilldo.

Wikimaps could give a satellite view.

Modeling the Cleveland and Pittsburgh during the PennCentral era starting on the Cleveland lakefront and ending in Mingo junction

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Posted by Mike Kieran on Friday, February 20, 2015 1:06 PM

I don't know why there's no reply button.

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Mike Kieran

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Posted by Mike Kieran on Friday, February 20, 2015 1:05 PM

Shaw AFB uses it's railroad for delivery of fuel to the 20th Fighter Wing. My father was stationed down there (I was born on the base's hospital) and didn't realize that the railroad was still running.

It rosters 2 GE 80 tonners

http://www.rrpicturearchives.netshowPicture.aspx?id=3190681,

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3190684

and a Whitcomb RS-4-TC

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1510876

__________________________________________________________________

Mike Kieran

Port Able Railway

I just do what the majority of the voices in my head vote on.

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Posted by softail86mark on Friday, February 20, 2015 12:28 PM

DSchmitt
 
softail86mark
Beale AFB, Marysville (Linda), California still uses rail. U2 base.

 

Do they still use rail? 

Looked at Google Earth.  Spotted one tank car in 2013 photo on a spur (no where near a place it could not be unloaded).  Same car at same place in 2011 photo.  What appears to be same car at end of track in 2010 photo just ouside (a warehouse?), the only place where track is covered.  I  think they no longer have a locomotive on the base.  Didn't see any. 

Oldest photos 1993 (poor quality).  No sign of rail activity on them or the 1998 )poor quality) photos either.

 

Schmitt,

You're probably right. I was headed to Wheatland and saw a UP crew switching that spur and just assumed. They could have just been using that spot for storage. I'll Google map it myself and look.

BTW, where are you?

Mark C.

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Posted by tcwright973 on Friday, February 20, 2015 8:18 AM

Mark Vinski - Your post was really interesting for me. I left Pittsburgh in January of 1966 via train from the old P&LE station to DC, then on to Fort Jackson (Reception Center). Then by bus to Fort Gordon for Basic, then Fort Eustis for AIT. After Vietnam, the last 6 months stationed at Fort Knox. Out of curiosity, what was your time frame.

Tom

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Posted by DSchmitt on Friday, February 20, 2015 7:13 AM

softail86mark
Beale AFB, Marysville (Linda), California still uses rail. U2 base.

Do they still use rail? 

Looked at Google Earth.  Spotted one tank car in 2013 photo on a spur (no where near a place it could not be unloaded).  Same car at same place in 2011 photo.  What appears to be same car at end of track in 2010 photo just ouside (a warehouse?), the only place where track is covered.  I  think they no longer have a locomotive on the base.  Didn't see any. 

Oldest photos 1993 (poor quality).  No sign of rail activity on them or the 1998 )poor quality) photos either.

I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.

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Posted by steemtrayn on Friday, February 20, 2015 4:08 AM

Naval Weapons Station Earle in Colts Neck, NJ has an extensive network of track plus a 14 mile line to a pier in Raritan Bay.

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Posted by softail86mark on Friday, February 20, 2015 12:33 AM

Beale AFB, Marysville (Linda), California still uses rail. U2 base.

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Posted by mvlandsw on Thursday, February 19, 2015 9:56 PM

   I followed the same parade of forts from Pittsburgh in 1966. My group rode a B&O pullman to D.C., an SAL coach to Ft. Jackson, and a bus to Ft. Gordan. During basic training I would wander down near the rifle ranges on weekends to watch Georgia Railroad trains pass. I'm not sure if the main track ran through the base or along the border.

   Ft. Eustis had a connection to the C&O Richmond -Newport News line plus its own training railroad which I got to ride on behind one of their diesels.

    Ft. Knox had an Illinois Central line passing through th base.

Mark Vinski

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Posted by davidmurray on Thursday, February 19, 2015 8:40 PM

I visited FairBanks, Alaska a few years ago.  The Alaska RR had a line out to the air base, mostly hauling jet fuel.

No idea who did what on base.

As a Canadian I didn't try to visit the base.

Dave

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Posted by MJ4562 on Thursday, February 19, 2015 8:07 PM

portroyalman

 

 
csxns

What about Shaw AFB in South Carolina.

 

 

 

I agree. Does anyone know about that? And thanks for all the replies. I had no idea that railroads were that big for military bases. Always thought that planes and trucks did most of that work nowadays. 

 

 

Military goods are often compact and heavy. Perfect for rail transport. Planes are only used to get a relatively small amount of equipment somewhere fast.  Many times the equipment is prepositioned close to potential hotspots and only the troops get airlifted. Trucks are flexible but can't carry as much as rail.  

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Posted by MJ4562 on Thursday, February 19, 2015 8:03 PM

wabash2800

I grew up on a number of Army Posts and one Air Force Base in the 1960s and 1970s. (Note my dad made sure that I knew the distinction that for the Army it was a "Post" and for the Air Force it was a "Base".) Anyway, they all had railroad trackage. Some had their own motive power but most did not.  I haven't seen anyone model that, it would make an interesting layout. At Fort Devens, Massachusetts coal was brough in and groceries for the commissary.

 

Victor Baird

 

LOL. Same here. My dad make sure my siblings and I knew better than to call an Army "Post" a "Base". 

 

I did some previous research into railroads on military facilities and it seems most installations had rail access at one time or another.  Most tracks were pulled up in the late 70's except for the ones housing units with heavy equipment and ammunition depots.  Check out the topographic maps at the USGS. They usually have good details on the track arrangements. The maps are free to download. 

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Posted by portroyalman on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 11:53 PM

csxns

What about Shaw AFB in South Carolina.

 

I agree. Does anyone know about that? And thanks for all the replies. I had no idea that railroads were that big for military bases. Always thought that planes and trucks did most of that work nowadays. 

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Posted by wabash2800 on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 11:13 PM

I grew up on a number of Army Posts and one Air Force Base in the 1960s and 1970s. (Note my dad made sure that I knew the distinction that for the Army it was a "Post" and for the Air Force it was a "Base".) Anyway, they all had railroad trackage. Some had their own motive power but most did not.  I haven't seen anyone model that, it would make an interesting layout. At Fort Devens, Massachusetts coal was brough in and groceries for the commissary.

When I lived at Selfridge Air National Guard Base near Mount Clemens, Michigan I got to ride the GE 45 tonner and tour the engine house. Mostly the RR brought in coal but the most unusual load they hauled was the remains of a crashed military jet, including its jet engines.

Victor Baird

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Posted by Trynn_Allen2 on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 9:40 PM

Fort Monmouth(sp), NJ - Extensive track work on the back side of the base.  It was disused when we were there in the mid 70's and didn't last much after that.

Lakehurst NAS, NJ - Had extensive track to service the airships and blimps.  Helium cars and fuel tankers were common and photos can be found.  Temporary track was actually laid into the airship hangers so that the HE cars could be loaded and unloaded

Fort Monroe Va, had track into it.  Pulled up prior to WWII.  Mostly passenger service to serve the Chamberline Hotel.  There was a tale of a 3' gauge RR that served the coastal artillary batteries, but I have never seen pics or evidence of it.

Fort Eustis Va, still has track as it is the US Army Transportation Command.  This is where the logistics guys go to learn how to load the Ro-Ro's and Pre po ships as well DODX cars.

Fort Belvoire VA, extensive trackage for the Engineers.

Badger Ammunition Works WI,  EXTENSIVE trackwork inside the plant for the making of ammunation and filling some ordience.  The loco is currently at Mid Continent Railroad Museum.

 

 

 

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Posted by softail86mark on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 6:29 PM

Concord Naval Weapons Station, Port Chicago, CA

Hosted a few Myth Busters episodes. Plus, in the 70s, before being decommissioned, some Vietnam protester got both legs cut off when he tried to stop a locomotive. Might have been a Sacramento Northern, but SP and ATSF both had connections.

Google map it and see how many tracks are still there. 

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Posted by csxns on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 4:39 PM

What about Shaw AFB in South Carolina.

Russell

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Posted by Kyle on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 4:32 PM

The naval base at Pearl Harbor was practically built using the railroad.  The dredging company used the railroad a lot to move around all of the material they had dug up.  The locomotive cranes were used extensively to build the base, from putting together shipyard cranes to lifting concrete.  Tracks were temporarily laid inside buildings to bring in the construction material and machinery. Ammunition was moved by rail.  After the attack the railroad was used to clean up and repair damage.  The Navy found they were short on equipment and sent a ton of equipment out to Hawaii.  After WWII, there was a surplus and much of the equipment was scrapped or sold off.  A few diesels (GE centercabs) were kept along some rolling stock to transport ammunition.  Unfortuantly that too came to an end and the rails were mostly ripped up.

Interestingly on Oahu everything was 3ft narrow gauge except for the coal bunkers, which were standard gauge and had a few cranes and locomotives.

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