All of my powered turnouts are of the twin coil type I strongly recommend that you install a CDU with this type of turnout The CDU protects the coils from burnout while also giving them the extra oomph to snap.with authority for lack of a better word.
Joe Staten Island West
Power the Frogs?
LION does not even bother to power the swithces on the double crossovers of him. 16" of dead track, and the trains of him have no problems.
Yeah for 48 wheel pickup, eh? Makes wiring simple!
BOAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Thanks Bob. My questions really pertain to people who have provided powered frogs and power routing and use ground throws.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
NP2626 You guys who use ground throws, do you power the frog; or, do any power routing, if so, how have you provided the changing polarity power to the frog and how have you routed power? That I can remember off hand at this time, I have fourteen places where the frog gets its’ polarity changed and nine where the power to a specific section of track gets turned off and on by the route chosen. Two are passing sidings and two are sections of track at an industrial portions of the layout and five are staging tracks. I have made good use of the Atlas Snap Relays as this is what is doing all this reversing of polarity and power routing. Yes, even though I have DCC, the sections of track I want shut off from power while the layout was DC, I still want to be shut off. I don't see any point in a DCC locomotive sitting idle being powered the whole time it sits in a siding or in staging. So, I have not changed the power routing capabilities of my layout from what it was when I used DC as my powering method. I have considered changing this on the industrial sidings so switching could still be performed while the mainline is active with other trains.
That I can remember off hand at this time, I have fourteen places where the frog gets its’ polarity changed and nine where the power to a specific section of track gets turned off and on by the route chosen. Two are passing sidings and two are sections of track at an industrial portions of the layout and five are staging tracks. I have made good use of the Atlas Snap Relays as this is what is doing all this reversing of polarity and power routing. Yes, even though I have DCC, the sections of track I want shut off from power while the layout was DC, I still want to be shut off. I don't see any point in a DCC locomotive sitting idle being powered the whole time it sits in a siding or in staging. So, I have not changed the power routing capabilities of my layout from what it was when I used DC as my powering method. I have considered changing this on the industrial sidings so switching could still be performed while the mainline is active with other trains.
None of my over 450 turnouts have the frog powered.
Since I model the 1975 - 85 time period everything is diesels and I use Atlas, Shinohara and Walthers turnouts (plus a few Handlaid) I have never found a reason I need to have them powered.
Although I do place drop wires on all 3 ends of every turnout and on every section of flex track - it pretty much eliminated any electrical drop out so my Sound Engines never have a problem.
BOB H - Clarion, PA
I have a switching layout (20 switches in 20 feet) and needed a way of throwing switches that was cheap and held pressure on the points so I made my own out of Rix PTL's and airplane control rods and 1" dowels. They're cheap and mount to the facia so you can tell which way the points are thrown.
Mark, As noted earlier in my original post, all my non CTC turnouts are homemade ground throws with electrical slide switches which power frogs and provide power routing/killing as needed.
And on a layout belonging to a friend, where I installed a different version of my control system, we used the Caboose ground throws with the built it electrial contacts. They work well, but are bit of a pain to build/install.
Sheldon
I "Line" my switches (They are far to heavy to "throw") by touching the points and a self made over centre spring does the rest. As I run a TT&TO railway, I do not beleive in switch machines except in hidden staging. Temporary staging uses ground throws.
Cheers
Roger T.
Home of the late Great Eastern Railway see: - http://www.greateasternrailway.com
For more photos of the late GER see: - http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l99/rogertra/Great_Eastern/
All of these issues are personal choices every one of us has to make. You make them, and either happy with your choice; or, change it if you feel it isn't working. I have felt no compunction to change to something else now, in 26 years!
I have 15-turnouts/switches on my BRVRR. Ten are remotely operated with Atlas switch machines mounted under the table. Five are manually operated with Caboose Industries #205 ground throws.
The remote switch machines are mounted with 1/16"double-sided foam tape and powered by a MRC Railpower 1300 power pack. The power pack is strong enough to throw the turnouts on the cross-overs two-at-a-time. All the remote switches are controlled with Atlas slided switches. As far as reliability is concerned, I have had only one switch machine fail in more that 10-years and that was caused by a grandson leaning on the slide switch.
Most of my under-table switch machines are converted surface machines. All it takes to do so is a short piece of wire, a length of Plastistruct tubing and a bit of epoxy. There is a "How To" photo essay on my BRVRR website. Here is the link:
http://www.brvrr.com/How'd%20You%20Do%20That.html
Just scroll down to the bottom of the page and click on the thumbnail of the switch machine.
Remember its your railroad
Allan
Track to the BRVRR Website: http://www.brvrr.com/
rrinker That's why I said optional indicator lights. Normal contact DPDT switches are of course not compatible with solenoid switch motors. Most momentary toggles snap back to the middle when released, so do not provide path indication. There are (they do still make them) switches like the old toggle keys that Walthers sold way back when. That have multiple sets of contacts and the handle stays in the position last moved to, so you have the handle position as a guide, but they also have 'passing' contacts in them that are momentary, so they can be used for solenoid machines. They are, however, not exactly cheap. You can get the actual Walthers E201's on eBay now and again, and I just saw Tenshodo made something similar (looks a lot like Lion's diagram) for their solenoid motors. There are but 2 real alternatives - an electronic circuit to interface normal toggle switches to momentary solenoid switch machines, or regular toggles and Tortoise-type motors. Other than Atlas or Peco, solenoid motors are hard to come by, but there used to be some back in the day that had cutoff contacts so they could be used with regular toggles. Or every turnout gets two switches - a toggle to indicate position and a momentary button to actually activate it. Drifting away from 'simple' again... --Randy
That's why I said optional indicator lights. Normal contact DPDT switches are of course not compatible with solenoid switch motors. Most momentary toggles snap back to the middle when released, so do not provide path indication. There are (they do still make them) switches like the old toggle keys that Walthers sold way back when. That have multiple sets of contacts and the handle stays in the position last moved to, so you have the handle position as a guide, but they also have 'passing' contacts in them that are momentary, so they can be used for solenoid machines. They are, however, not exactly cheap. You can get the actual Walthers E201's on eBay now and again, and I just saw Tenshodo made something similar (looks a lot like Lion's diagram) for their solenoid motors.
There are but 2 real alternatives - an electronic circuit to interface normal toggle switches to momentary solenoid switch machines, or regular toggles and Tortoise-type motors. Other than Atlas or Peco, solenoid motors are hard to come by, but there used to be some back in the day that had cutoff contacts so they could be used with regular toggles. Or every turnout gets two switches - a toggle to indicate position and a momentary button to actually activate it. Drifting away from 'simple' again...
--Randy
I used KTM twin-coil and Atlas twin coil machines on an early layout that I dismantled back in 1983.
For turnout selection I used single pole double throw rotary switches I picked up at a surplus shop for 5¢ each and the wire feeding this switch had a Radio Shack normally open momentary pushbutton.
Set the rotary switch to the route you wanted, they had about a 15° throw, then a quick push of the MC pushbutton and you were all set. I had a pointer switch knob that would follow the track diagram so the panel route indication was "visible."
You could do the same thing with toggles, down for normal, up for reverse or whatever configuration you want to make your standard.
USS installations usually don't have the electrical switches on the "model Board" but located below mimicking the larger lever type interlockings.
By having that momentary contact pushbutton in the line feeding your toggle switch you can have the toggle indicate your turnout route, then a quick tap on the PB and you're all set.
Just another option, Ed
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
While I like facia mounted diffused LEDs for turnout indication I can see that they could also be a distraction or disturbing to the eye, especially a panel chock full of em'. The light they emit seems different than incandesents.
regards, Peter
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Geared Steam Peco spring loaded turnouts, it doesn't get any simpler! ! ! ! That assumes that the electrical charactoristics of PECO turnouts are to your liking - personally they don't meet my needs. But if it works for you - great! Sheldon
Geared Steam Peco spring loaded turnouts, it doesn't get any simpler! ! ! !
Peco spring loaded turnouts, it doesn't get any simpler!
!
That assumes that the electrical charactoristics of PECO turnouts are to your liking - personally they don't meet my needs.
But if it works for you - great!
The question of this thread is "How do you activate your turnouts"?
I answered that question, and yes, they work perfectly, mechanically and electrically for my requirements.
I also use a wood pick to uncouple cars, crazy complicated me...
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
NP2626 Randy, If the toggle switch is placed so the direction of throw is perpendicular to the pathway of the trains on the track schematic, the side to which the lever is pointing most certainly does provide an indication of what position has been routed through the turnout. I will admit many people appear to like lights as indicators. However, I did not feel the need for them. I also don’t care that this may not be realistic enough for some.
I will admit many people appear to like lights as indicators. However, I did not feel the need for them. I also don’t care that this may not be realistic enough for some.
Mark, I agree, if I did not need/want to operate the same turnout from two seperate locations, and if the layout did not contain so many complex interlocking routes, and if I did not need the other relay contacts for the signals, I would be more than happy with simple toggles that indicated the position of the points.
Randy, regarding PECO turnouts.
I started building my layout long before their North American line, but I don't like power routing turnouts (electrofrog), I don't like dead frogs(insulfrog), and I don't like the geometry of the older products.
While my system is partly based on MZL, and uses turnout postion to direct power in many cases, that is all done with relay contacts, or my ground throw contacts, never with the switch points.
The spring action of the PECO system is not compatible with slow motion machines like the Tortoise. Why buy a more expensive product just so you can defeat its features?
The reason you are not finding "simple to build" with Atlas switch machines is that "simple to build" "panel indications" and "Atlas switch motors" do not go together very well.
Simple is a Tortoise, a toggle switch, and if the switch lever position isn't enough indication, a pair of LEDs. Can't build anything much simpler electrically that provides point control with a simple control and (optional) indicator lights. You CAN do this with twin coil Atlas machines but it requires an additional electronic circuit to provide the indicator lights and allow non-momentary switches to control the machines without burning them out. Or you can piggy-back an Atlas Snap-Relay and run additional wires back to the control panel to provide the indcators. Electrically that's pretty simple - just switches turning lights on and off (so what if it's called a relay - a relay is just an electrically operated switch), but it's still a lot more wiring than a Tortoise. And still there are the servos. Yes there is a complex electronic device involved, but it's a black box. The buttons, LEDs, and the servos themselves all just plug in with 3-wire cables that have a standard plug on the end of them. Completely solderless. Simple to connect, simple to operate.
Why not? Properly configured, the only 'complication' is providing frog power, and all that would take is a spare relay contact or switch machine contact - that's Electrofrog. Insulfrogs are a a direct drop in for Atlas, I'm assuming you have power feeds beyond the frogs of turnout since the route determines the power assignment in MZL. Worst case might be a dead end siding that's not a seperate block, which would mean an extra set of feeders beyond the frog to bypass the power routing. But Electrofrogs are much more reliable anyway.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Mark, Of course there is room for every choice, but the fact remians that simple construction does not automaticly equal simple operation. You like to build freight cars and such, I like building EVERY aspect of the layout - including the control system. You have a RTR control system, DCC, I build mine. But back to turnout controls - I chose a combination of methods to simulate the type of prototype operation I am modeling - nothing more - nothing less. Tower/CTC with interlocking signals for the mainline - ground throws for the rest - just like the prototype. Sheldon
Mark,
Of course there is room for every choice, but the fact remians that simple construction does not automaticly equal simple operation.
You like to build freight cars and such, I like building EVERY aspect of the layout - including the control system.
You have a RTR control system, DCC, I build mine.
But back to turnout controls - I chose a combination of methods to simulate the type of prototype operation I am modeling - nothing more - nothing less.
Tower/CTC with interlocking signals for the mainline - ground throws for the rest - just like the prototype.
Yes.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL NP2626 ATLANTIC CENTRAL Mark, Simple construction does not always provide simple operation. Sheldon In my mind the above statement is simply incongruous! However, I understand that “Simple operation” likely needs to be defined by the operator. Why? Staying on this topic, wiring turnouts so that a complex route is selected with the touch of one button makes operation simpler - it makes construction much more complex. To me simpler operation means less buttons to push, more automation of choices that will always be the same - example if you throw one turnout of a crossover, you will surely need the other one as well? But even more importantly, if you have double track, and you have a left hand crossover followed by a right hand crossover, than when one of the crossovers is set for trains to crossover, the other crossover will always need to be straight - why not make that and automatic one button condition? In my case I want to do all that within the context of signaling and mainline CTC and with DC power. So I use about 400 relays to control signal logic, turnouts and power routing for what would be 50 blocks, connected to 4 throttle choices each, and 100 turnouts. All the complexity reduces the number of "user input devices" to less than 1/3 the number that would be required with "simpler" wiring schemes. So the "complex" wiring makes operation simple - and flexible. Mainline turnouts can be thrown from the dispacther or from local panels. Trains can be run from the dispatcher or with walk around wireless throttles. Built into these complex turnout and power routing controls is automatic train control on the mainline - trains can't crash - yes it is complex - but like a lot of complex things, it is really just a lot of simple circuits repeated and layered over and over into a fully intergrated system. The same relay that throws that turnout, directs the signal logic for that turnout, powers the frog for that turnout, and routes the power through that turnout. Sheldon
NP2626 ATLANTIC CENTRAL Mark, Simple construction does not always provide simple operation. Sheldon In my mind the above statement is simply incongruous! However, I understand that “Simple operation” likely needs to be defined by the operator.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Mark, Simple construction does not always provide simple operation. Sheldon
Simple construction does not always provide simple operation.
Why? Staying on this topic, wiring turnouts so that a complex route is selected with the touch of one button makes operation simpler - it makes construction much more complex.
To me simpler operation means less buttons to push, more automation of choices that will always be the same - example if you throw one turnout of a crossover, you will surely need the other one as well? But even more importantly, if you have double track, and you have a left hand crossover followed by a right hand crossover, than when one of the crossovers is set for trains to crossover, the other crossover will always need to be straight - why not make that and automatic one button condition?
In my case I want to do all that within the context of signaling and mainline CTC and with DC power. So I use about 400 relays to control signal logic, turnouts and power routing for what would be 50 blocks, connected to 4 throttle choices each, and 100 turnouts.
All the complexity reduces the number of "user input devices" to less than 1/3 the number that would be required with "simpler" wiring schemes.
So the "complex" wiring makes operation simple - and flexible. Mainline turnouts can be thrown from the dispacther or from local panels. Trains can be run from the dispatcher or with walk around wireless throttles. Built into these complex turnout and power routing controls is automatic train control on the mainline - trains can't crash - yes it is complex - but like a lot of complex things, it is really just a lot of simple circuits repeated and layered over and over into a fully intergrated system. The same relay that throws that turnout, directs the signal logic for that turnout, powers the frog for that turnout, and routes the power through that turnout.
Sheldon, did you see this part of my original post on complexity: "I have no problem with your doing so, it’s just not the direction I have an interest in".
Certainly, the simplest way to operate a layout is to turn it on and sit and watch your trains do all the things needed without doing anything, just watch! You could hook the whole thing to a computer and do this. I don't know how; but, I'm sure someone could figure it out. Buy everything ready to run and ready built, almost all of your construction time would be spent on wiring up the totally automated operating system. The above would be a form of “simple” to some people.
Is there room for these two types of model railroading in this world, Sheldon?
I use some caboose industries for some close in switching, Bullfrog Turnout controls by Fast Tracks, http://www.handlaidtrack.com/BullFrog-Manual-Turnout-Control-s/2087.htm, and for under table switching for staging I used the Atlas bump switches that they come with.