building layout want to know if i can use particale board in stead of plywood for base due to the high price of plywood
You'll get lots of opinions on that. If you do go with particle board, you'll need closer supports. Given it's the base for everything that goes on top staying straight and level over the years, plywood is a better investment IMO.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I have to agree with Mike. Not only is plywood more supportive, you'll find it cheaper, as well.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
mlehman You'll get lots of opinions on that. If you do go with particle board, you'll need closer supports. Given it's the base for everything that goes on top staying straight and level over the years, plywood is a better investment IMO.
Maybe, or maybe not. I found the information in the following link which seemed so support the notion that OSB (Oriented Strandboard) interesting to read - just one quote:
http://bct.eco.umass.edu/publications/by-title/choosing-between-oriented-strandboard-and-plywood/
"Osb and plywood share the same exposure durability classifications: Interior, Exposure 1 (95% of all structural panels), Exposure 2 and Exterior. They share the same set of performance standards and span ratings."
Much of the information implies to me that OSB would work fine for a layout in humidity controlled conditions such as a basement with a dehumidifier.
I'm on a budget and the 8 dollars per sheet helped. Much of the area I've used mine on is a sandwich of homasote and OSB 7/16-inch. It seems pretty staple and not prone to sagging to me so far, so good. I've noted a number of other layouts using it - I also used it in my garage layout in the early 1990's and it worked ok for the few years used it before moving.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Particle board WILL sag unless the underlying supports are quite close together--say 12" centers or even a bit less, somewhat dependent upon the thickness. What you save compared to the plywood cost will probably be more than offset by the cost of additional supports. Everything I have read and heard says stick with plywood.
I wonder if the OP meant OSB when he said particle board. I used to refer to it that way too but it is a different materal isn't it.
I have used OSB (Orientated Strand Board) in the 7/16 thickness.
The joists are 16 on center to support the OSB.
My layout has been up for over 15 years and is located in a basement.
I use a dehudmidifier in the summer - no heat in the winter. I some portable electric heaters I will sit around when I have an OPs Session twice a month.
Once the lights have been on a couple hours the temp the room warms up fairly quick.
The main thing is the OSB has to be supported properly!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
riogrande5761
OSB and particle board are not the same thing. I don't know for certain but OSB may be a suitable substitute for plywood in our layouts. But I do not believe particle board is.
There is an interesting comparison of OSB and particle board at the link below.
http://www.doityourself.com/stry/osb-vs-particleboard
Yeah, you can make OSB work (with proper support), particle board will be a constant struggle against gravity more than likely.
Thing is, you spend more money on the supporting structure and extra effort to build it. It's probably a wash as far as OSB is concerned. You'll be in the hole trying to keep particle board from sagging.
Jim and Bob have important points about humidity here. It's not just sagging, but expansion due to taking up hunidity. If you're in Florida or Texas, beware if you don't have air.
Not sure about the non-plywood types but one consideration would be behavior when making vertical transitions; e.g., from level to a grade.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
skagitrailbird riogrande5761 OSB and particle board are not the same thing.
OSB and particle board are not the same thing.
Which is why I mentioned it, as some 15-20 years ago, when I had no clue as to the terminololgy, I referred to OSB as partical board because it looked like it was made of wood particles, more or less. I was a "dumb" grad student working on my masters degree at the time and didn't know much about building materials. However, I used a lot of discarded construction site scraps to make my layout with to save money - it worked out fine.
BTW, I thought I had posted the link where I got my quote from - looks like I spaced and left it out - I've added it back to the earlier post and here as well:
Bottom line is OSB is waaay cheaper than plywood at my local Home Depot and quite economical at about $8 for a 4x8 sheet. Great for someone on a budget.
I use 15/32 plywood pine sheathing (Plytanium). Works fine. It can be a little rough in spots, but you're going to cover it anyway. While is costs about $22 a sheet vs $9 for OSB where I am, I think it's worth it for a better product.
Enjoy
I think it's about $8 for OSB vs. $24 for plywood here in northern Virginia.
Anyway, if money is no object, then by all means get the best. If your on a tight budget, OSB will work fine too. Money is an object for me.
OSB or chipboard is made from large chips of wood. It has strands of fiber in the middle of it (oriented strand board) running the long way of the panel. This has been mixed with an adhesive and put under extreme heat and pressure to form a panel in various sizes and thickness. Usually has one side smoother than the other. It can be used on roofing or sidewalls of a building. It is resistant to water to a certain degree but should be covered when exposed to the weather. It can span up to 24" at the proper thickness. Your supplier can inform you. 16" is usually 1/2" thick. Should work good for under a layout as it is stable indoors.
Particle board is sawdust mixed with glue and compressed much like OSB. In normal situations it used as a underlayment for flooring. It's the stuff cheap furniture is usually made from (think bookshelves with sagging shelves). The glue used is not waterproof and will absorb it and begin to swell. Not good to build scenery on. Would need support closer together than OSB. This means additional cost. Penny wise and pound foolish.
If you desire a solid surface under your layout and cannot afford good plywood, I would go with the OSB. DO NOT use particle board, you would be sorry in the long run a have less money for that new motive power.
P.S. OSB will hold nails and screws way better than particle board but not as good as plywood.
Hope this helps. Enjoy your new layout.
God's Best & Happy Rails to You!
Bing (RIPRR The Route of the Buzzards)
The future: Dead Rail Society
Just use foam!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I use 3/4" plywood but am not adverse to saving money. Does 3/4 " thick OSB exist?
One thing I have heard from people who use OSB a lot is that it has much more adhesive than plywood and can be hard on your tools therefore.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
I've never heard that OSB is hard on tools; I haven't had any issues or worn out bits etc. The benchwork I'm nearly finished building I used only two power tools to build with, a Sabre Saw and a cordless drill - thats it! I'm doing everything on a budget and with a little care it's all come out fairly good.
Since make lots of mistakes while laying track, I prefer to use nails/spikes rather than adhesives, so Foam is a "no-go" for me.
As for 3/4 - check your local Lowes or Home Depot - I used 7/16ths and it's been fine - but I never looked for the thicker stuff - didn't want to deal with the extra weight and 7/16ths has been sufficiently stable.
riogrande5761http://bct.eco.umass.edu/publications/by-title/choosing-between-oriented-strandboard-and-plywood/
Reading further toward the bottom of that article I found this:
If you are planning to use osb as a subfloor OR underlayment for your next tile floor, you may want to think again. Joe Tarver, Executive Director of the National Tile Contractors Association, Jackson, MS says, “ Osb is not an acceptable substrate to receive ceramic tile, period!” NTCA lists osb, along with pressboard and luan plywood, as “not acceptable” in its reference manual. It has to do with thickness swell. They feel that if osb gets wet, it transfers stress and causes the tile to fail.
I think ballast & scenery, being water intensive, would have similar risks. They point out in the article that the equality to plywood only applies in full sheet applications. When you cut the OSB, all bets are off. Factory edges are sealed against moisture but edges cut in the field are not. With the frequency of edges in MRR subroadbed, I'd say this needs attention.
OSB may be entirely acceptable as subroadbed, but if I were going to use it I'd put some kind of a sealer on the cut edges. The savings per sheet relative to plywood can easily cover the cost of a can of Thompson's (or whatever brand you prefer).
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Bayfield Transfer Railway ... One thing I have heard from people who use OSB a lot is that it has much more adhesive than plywood and can be hard on your tools therefore.
...
While I would expect that OSB has more glue, they both are glued products.
As such they will dull your sharp edges faster than a pine board. Carbide tip saw blades will help.
You'll also need to go slower when using low end power tools and rest them if they start to get warm. Otherwise the overheating could damage your tools.
For years I used a low end 1/4 inch drill with no problems and drilled wood, plywood, cinder block, etc. By keeping one hand on the body and resting it when it got warm it lasted and gave me years of sevice. In fact I still have it and it still works, but I use beefier 3/8 and 1/2 inch drills now.
Carl,
I did read the entire article and those cautionary comments - which of course the conditions advocated here aren't subflooring - much of the OSB info indicated it was a suitable substute for plywood (when used as recommended), which itself was criticized when it was first in use.
Protecting against moisture is good insurance - which I'm doing in addition to using the dehumifier. There are modelers who have used OSB for years quite successfully so IMO, it is a viable option for those who aren't loaded. For those who are, of course get the very best money can buy.
I learned the hard way! I live in Bakersfield CA and built all my elevated track with ¼" OSB and used 10" to 12" spacing for supports. My layout is in the garage and wasn't insulated, the garage would go from mid 30s winter to 108° in the summer. The wide temperature swing dinged the OSB and my Atlas Flex track after about 5 years. The OSB warped badly even though I used ¾" x 4" pine glued and screwed for suports. I had the grage insulated in the early 2000s and now the temperature only varies a few degrees, upper 60s winter to mid 80s summer. Before I had the garage insulated I replaced the OSB with ¼" plywood and that ended my problems until last summer. I was having a problem with derailing in a tunnel and found a section of OSB I missed that had continued to warp more than 10 years after the garage was insulated. It was near a grade transition and supported with a solid piece of tapered pine and it still warped. OSB definitely wouldn't be my choise at triple the savings.
Mel
1/4" may be your problem here. That's far too thin to be decent subroadbed, even with supports 12" and closer. 1/4" materials are suitable for fascias and backdrops, for subroadbed 1/2" is the practical minimum if using wood, either ply or OSB.
Or was that a typo? I don't think they make OSB in less than 1/2", particle board, yes.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
LION used no Plywood, OSB board only on a late addition helix 9that board was scrap recoverd from a shipping crate.
LION used CELOTEX for the deck of him, and on 16" centers at that. (Think Light-weight Homosote). It is more stable than Homosote, Lighter, and easier to cut. It does not sag as the heavier Homosote would. Altogether LION recommends Celotex as the PURRFECT product.
Ah But. There is allways a but is there not. While the Celotex Company is alive and well, this signature product is no longer made, a victim it would appear of the advent of fire codes. It would be the equivalent of using paper mache for walls and ceilings. Inspectors will not allow the stuff in structures, but it works perfectly on the railroad.
My Grandparents had a similar, even softer product for the walls and ceilings of their cottage in Conneticut, but that was of course before fire codes were applied to the world.
2'x4' accustic ceiling pannels look like a good option, but you must be very careful with them as they will break easily. LION has had good luck with foam of all kinds, him even uses foam for the track supports. Him also used 2" thick fiberglass roofing insulation, the kind with tar paper on both sides. Very light, very stable, easy to cut, but you will have to take a bath after touching the stuff: You do not want to have fiberglass particles in your fur.
The bottom level of track was a late addition, at the moment I am not sure what I made it out of.
To the left of that is a ramop made of Celotex. The third level is mostly Celotex, but there is a snip of Homosote to the left.
The fourth level is Celotex, and the top level is 3/4" foam built on a frame of tis own than then placed above the rest. You can see that it is only supported at the ends, but it does have supports built into the mini-table.
The pink foam on the bottom level is going to be the Cortland Street Platform. To the left of that will be the Nevins Street Station, and above that the Lenox Avenue station hidden behind the blue foam.
Supported by the Blue foam is the 8th street Level It will have a fiberglass paltform, you can see it, sort of warped on that level, it will be nice and smooth once I glue it in place.
LION has made many of the platforms of him from this material. 4" wide x 4' long him slices it into two halves about 3/4" thick and then used the table saw to cut out the platform lip. Nice work the LION does, even if only him says so.
LION only has to please LION. If Wildebeest comes into room LION will eat him up.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
rrinker 1/4" may be your problem here. That's far too thin to be decent subroadbed, even with supports 12" and closer. 1/4" materials are suitable for fascias and backdrops, for subroadbed 1/2" is the practical minimum if using wood, either ply or OSB. Or was that a typo? I don't think they make OSB in less than 1/2", particle board, yes. --Randy
It's actually 5/16" OSB, not too many uses especially anything structural. Pallet coverings, crates and my use to encase insulation for crawl space additions to help keep vermin from making themselves home in the R30 insulation. Far cheaper than 3/8: plywood. Use it where local codes will allow and have adequate ventilation.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
Bayfield Transfer RailwayOne thing I have heard from people who use OSB a lot is that it has much more adhesive than plywood and can be hard on your tools therefore.
I think this may be referring to MDF (medium density fiberboard), another similar product that is higher quality stuff than particle board, heavy, and won't save you the money OSB will.
Randy, you guys are correct the OSB I used was 5/16". I had used the 5/16" OSB ever since it was made available without any problems until I moved to into the Bakersfield heat. I didn't go into detail about how I used the thin OSB, but I used 1" x 3" stiffeners glued and screwed under the OSB between the 1" x 4" support columns. There was so much pressure from the OSB warping it actually cracked several of the 1" x 4" support columns.
I recently built a 4' x 8' x ¾" plywood layout for an 8 year old grandson and used ¼" plywood for the elevated roadbed. I used 1" x 6" pine taper cut length wise for continuous support under the ¼" plywood using 1" Kerf cuts at the curves. That worked out very good and was well worth the extra effort. It made the grade transitions super easy and the elevated roadbed strong enough to take any kind of abuse from an 8 year old boy.
I used the Kerf cut method to repair the bad OSB section inside my mountain as an experiment and it worked out so good that I'm hooked on it. I used Elmer's Carpenter glue to glue the 1" pine taper cut to the plywood and a couple of screws to hold it in place.
I feathered the plywood to a paper thin edge with my belt sander. Best grade transition I've ever made in my almost 70 years of model railroading.
Guys:
I visited a club that was using 1/4 plywood, two layers of 1 inch foam, and another layer of plywood, laminated together with construction adhesive.
Anyone try anything like this???
If it a good idea, I would think tha 5/16 OSB could be used insteaad of plywood.
Then you could lay track any way you have grown to like.
Would be easy to cut into for lakes, streams, etc.
As I haven't done this I have no knowledge of the results.
Dave
If you accidentally spill water on particle-board, it is toast (warped to be exact). I use 1/2" plywood and I am a happy camper.
Seal
The use of paint to seal particle board/waferboard/plywood- will help eliminate delamanation/warping/swelling.
I have shadow duck and goose decoys I made from Luan over 30 years ago that are like new (not counting pellet holes) when I made them I sealed the wood with latex flat enamel, paying attention to the cut edges.
When I used plywood for boat building/repair- I would coat the plywood with fiberglass resin mixed 15cc of hardner to one gallon of waxless resin and roll it into the wood with a low knap roller. When dry it seals the wood completely. If you are going to apply cloth or stitch-mat it eliminates sanding, and use on much less resin when applying the mat/cloth.
Unless I was planning to run my train in the swimming pool I probably wouldn't use the resin.
herrinchoker