The other thing about this - yes, they all crack - eventually. When I bought mine, it was already several years after the run in which the ones I have were made, but a couple were new int he box. The two I ran most - one I ran for 3 years before it developed a cracked gear. The other - never did, but I repalced it anyway. I have 4 others, which all came int he original boxes, packaged as new, witht he shell and chassis seperated. One had a cracked gear out of the box - but remember this was first removed and tested by me (not sure if it was truly new or had been run before) some 12 years after it was made. The second one of those I tried ran fine, no cracked gear, but since I took it apart to put a decoder in and also clean out the old grease and put in fresh, I repalced the gears with the Athearn ones anyway.
So while the warranty indeed was "limited lifetime", these things weren;t broken day 1 out of the box when new, and they could and did last for a long time before the symptoms appeared.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
trlinkcaso Walthers shows wheelsets for both the 4 axle units and the E units as being in stock: http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/920-584408 http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/920-584494 Wow Terry, thanks for posting those links. I thought they'd never get the E6 axles again! Jarrell
Walthers shows wheelsets for both the 4 axle units and the E units as being in stock:
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/920-584408
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/920-584494
Wow Terry, thanks for posting those links. I thought they'd never get the E6 axles again!
Jarrell
,..
Also I do not recall anyone complaining that Life Like was refusing to perform warranty work or failing to accept units which were sent in.
Jim
LL was way too nice in sending brand new wheelsets just because someone asked for them, which is basically what they did.
There is a little warranty card in the box, along with other paperwork that customers just trash, and LL should have required proof of how many LL locomotives were owned by requiring the customer to send the cards to LL....or at least tell them the serial number on the paperwork.
Trashed the paperwork? Sorry, no free parts. They print the paperwork for a reason.
- Douglas
Terry Link
www.canadasouthern.com
www.casofreemo.org
www.tmrdistributing.com
To the topic of the thread, "Why am I the only person botherede by Life Like P2k axles?" The answer is obviously you are not the only person bothered by it. BUT I have many (probably over 50 units) sitting in boxes that have this potential problem. It does not bother me, because I was too lazy to do anything about back when everyone knew this was happening. Had I immediately either sent those units back to LifeLike or at least written them to get the spare parts, then I would be good. But I didn't, so now 15? years later I don't think I have much of an argument to stand on, nor do I think anyone else does. So I'm saying if one was going to be "bothered" by it, they should have done something about it way back when.
rrinkerthe very "whiners" posted in this thread, thinking it was unreasonable to have to swap the parts themselves!
rrinkerI never said it was wrong, or someone is not a 'real' model railroader for buying RTR equipment.
I find these two statements to be somewhat contradictory.
As the "whiner" I believe you are referring to, just for the record, what I was trying to say was that LL didn't deserve the sympathy being expressed because they got off easy. They sold the loco's as RTR and got away with providing only parts to correct their manufacturing problem.
I bought 5 of the "new old stock" GP9's about a year ago off ebay. I had the replacement gears in hand before they arrived.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
My problem with the p2k gear problem involves a Proto 2000 E6 passenger unit that developed cracked gears. I rarely ran the locomotive and the problem was late showing up so I didn't detect it until after Walther's had stopped supplying a replacement, paid for or free. I tried to find a suitable replacement from Athearn but the wheel size, on the ones I purchased, is a bit different plus the gear on the axle isn't quite the same. If I remember right it was one tooth different. So, unless I can locate, as Walther's suggested in a phone call to them, an old e6 unit to rob of wheel/axles... I have a nice E6 paperweight.
And this whole thing got WAY out of context - the very "whiners" posted in this thread, thinking it was unreasonable to have to swap the parts themselves!
Hard to believe, buit I'm sure there are plenty of people who don't know about the cracked gear problem. For those that do and avoid buying them because they are afraid of somethign or other, well, their loss is my gain, since I can get Proto Geeps for $30 or less on eBay while the less detailed Atlas ones still go for over $80. Five minutes and $5 worth of Athearn parts and I have a solid, highly detailed loco.
Same as it's always been in this hobby. Results are achievable with any mix from practically zero effort but lots of money to not much money but a huge effort. I never said it was wrong, or someone is not a 'real' model railroader for buying RTR equipment.
Bayfield Transfer Railway People have been bellyaching that other people were playing with trains wrong since MR started publication. Read some of the letter columns from the 40s and 50s.Sometimes model railroaders sound like a bunch of kindergarteners.
People have been bellyaching that other people were playing with trains wrong since MR started publication. Read some of the letter columns from the 40s and 50s.Sometimes model railroaders sound like a bunch of kindergarteners.
Lol! Where is my chocolate milk, I wanna take a nap!
Oh. There it is -------------->
T e d
rrinker ANd I keep saying - this web site is not an accurate cross section of the hobby, at least those who actually post. There are plenty of people for whom even just taking off the truck bottom would be difficult or simply something they wouldn't want to even attempt. check out the younger generations - it's not "I don't have enough time", it's "I want it, and I want it NOW" as the main driver. Be it hobby or elsewhere in life. --Randy
ANd I keep saying - this web site is not an accurate cross section of the hobby, at least those who actually post. There are plenty of people for whom even just taking off the truck bottom would be difficult or simply something they wouldn't want to even attempt. check out the younger generations - it's not "I don't have enough time", it's "I want it, and I want it NOW" as the main driver. Be it hobby or elsewhere in life.
Randy-
I take offense to that. Ok so I really don't. At all. But I catch your drift.
You actually helped me with taking off the bottom of my engine trucks last week- something I really was apprehensive about. Turned out to be a great experience. I hope I fall into the "younger generation" but something tells me 34 doesn't really make the cut.
I do remember a boxcar kit my dad bought me when I was about 12 and getting so frustrated trying to put those tiny little springs in the trucks and finally gave up. Well my dad gave me the unfinished kit for Christmas when I told him I wanted to get into the hobby again about a year ago. I figured out how to get the springs in and it's one of my favorite cars now. When anyone comes over I point out how impressed they should be that I got those springs in.
I have/do buy rtr but am gaining a new appreciation for kit building- especially when I do the math- 2 kits for the price of one rtr. It costs more time for sure but I get memories and experience whilst building it. Sunday night I started a branchline reefer kit and thought, "sure, by Wednesday night I'll be done." I can squeeze in maybe an hour or 45 minutes every night and now my estimate for completion is Saturday morning just in time for WPF. It's tough to find time sometimes as I do want to be done NOW so I can put it in to service. I'm learning the little bit of peace and quiet and exercising my patience is therapeutic. I know when I look at the car later I'll probably remember it as the car that would never get done. I won't however view it as the rtr impulse I bought from the goof at the lhs.
I'm probably preaching to the choir here but wanted to share my experience and hopefully convince others that kits and tinkering can be fun and rewarding too. More rewarding than "NOW". I was worried when I looked at the walthers flyer and there were so few kits. I don't want all rtr. I want to slow down a bit and enjoy the scenery. I hope this isn't a minority opinion.
Nobody should take this post as me being anti-rtr though. Sometimes that itch needs to be scratched too.
Edit: I think my peace and quiet comment answered my "younger generation" question
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
For those folks you are referring to, buying NIB old P2k loco's produced 15 to 20 years ago is probably a bad idea due to the very high incident of cracked gears - that is if replacing them is "not going to happen". Lesson for them, only buy new and then deal with customer service for those loco's. Or buy train sets.
So why make it sound like wanting to have something already made as if it's a bad thing? Or am I misreading the conotation to "I want it, and I want it NOW" - as sounding negative and whiney? What happend to Model Railroading is fun? People are busy. Not everyone is retired and has time to do all the various aspects of building a model RR. Not everyone enjoys building kits. I'd argue that in the olden days, many did it because there was simply no other way to get a roster of trains. I've built plenty but I don't enjoy it as much as I used to, but still do, yes out of necessity because some models I need only come in kit form. Anyway, as my daughter would say, "peace out" and keep it positive.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
ANd I keep saying - this web site is not an accurate cross section of the hobby, at least those who actually post. There are plenty of people for whom even just taking off the truck bottom would be difficult or simply something they wouldn't want to even attempt. Add to that pulling the wheels off the old gear and pushing them into the new gears - yeah, not going to happen.
ANd the other part of this, this trend to RTR - it's not a fignment of my imagination, but neither is the main driver a situation like yours where you simply could not build everything you need. If that were the case, we should all scratchbuild - even kits are 'cheating'. Just check out the younger generations - it's not "I don't have enough time", it's "I want it, and I want it NOW" as the main driver. Be it hobby or elsewhere in life. I have RTR equipment - some manufacturers like Accurail and Bowser release the same models as their kits but with different numbers - so buy buying and building all the kits plus buying the RTR versions I get an even larger fleet without resorting to erasing decals and applying new ones.
rrinker With the trend to RTR, ask yourself that question again. It's too much like 'work' to actually pull the wheels out of the gear axles and put them on a new one.
Since I'm seeing a recurring theme here regarding RTR people, can I ask, "can't we all just get along?" So let me address the above comment "is it really too much work to pull the wheels"...
From what I understand it's a fairly simple proceedure to turn the loco up-side-down and remove the bottom gear covers from the truck frames and after that the faulty cracked gear axles come out easily, and the replacements basically drop right in. That being the case it's not a difficult or time consuming process so no, it's not too much work.
That said, for some folks there will always be some fear of the unknown, or fear of breaking off a tab that holds the cover in place - which in that case would not be so good. Some are handier than others but the replacement issue is relatively easy in the grand scheme of things, as long as a critical part isn't broken in the process.
Be glad that the fix for the P2K trucks is quick, easy and inexpensive. I have regeared my entire fleet, some using wheel/gear/axel sets provided by Walthers (at the time I needed them I think they were charging $2.25 each) and others I have done using the Athearn gears.
Actually, it gave me good reason to open up the gear cases and dig out the old grease and replace it with a better PTFE lube.
Broadway Limited has had their share of cracked gears. Just last week I went to run a pair of my I1s and they were thumping like lame hippos.
Broadway does not stock driver sets but they offered to send me the gears free of charge OR if I send them the drivers they will install the gears for me, again at no charge. I believe that's a fair deal.
They put a pretty heavy knurl on the brass hub and that may have contributed to the problem. Some grades of nylon will get brittle, especially these that are packed in grease.
I believe the molding process is part of the problem, too. As the plastic enters the mold there is a point where it flows around the center hub and meets on each side causing a flaw at that point. Add the stress of force-fitting an axel shaft and the stress cracks the gear. I believe the NWSL gears are machined from solid stock whick greatly adds quality, but adds cost as well.
I'm glad most manufacturers have a good parts stock. Kato, Athearn and Bachmann come to mind as being good in this area but I think it would be an inventory nightmare to try to provide the scores of parts EACH model may require especially one that is ten or more years old...
Just my 2¢ — Ed
Well, Carl, I bought Athearn Genesis Big Boy and Challengers with the original MRC decoder which Athearn apparently knew to be of bad quality and were/are "time bombs" as to when the decoder starts doing bizzare things.
When Athearn went to Tsunami Sound I inquired if an under warrantee exhange repair could be made or after warrantee period ran out. I offered to pay but they would (and still will ) only replace the with MRC decoders even though they know and have not renewed a contract with them.
The cracked gear issue is minor compared with this and even though the company is still around and knew about the issue hasn't ever offered any real fix even under warrantee.
So...these things will show up in the hobby from time to time with or without fair redress of the issue (even if under warrantee still) from the manufacturers although most do their best to help.
I wrote a lot of emails and posted on the forum about the Genesis MRC fiasco but it didn't do any good. This was then a new product. You're not going to get any fixes from a manufacuterer on a 20 year old issue. Sorry. But the feeling of indignation you feel is shared by others from time to time and maybe will provide you with a little solace.
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
Sorry Carl, I misunderstood your comment. Of course you're correct about the people who got replacement parts under false pretenses.
As for Walthers replacement programme, it was probably the most expedient way to deal with the issue, and it's too bad that they got taken. In light of that, it's not surprising that their largesse ended.
Wayne
doctorwayneI think, though, that you're on dangerous ground labelling it as fraud.
Soo Line fan Never understood why LL and later Walters serviced this issue as a wheel set and not just the gears.
Never understood why LL and later Walters serviced this issue as a wheel set and not just the gears.
I'd bet a beer it's because the factory in China was popping out wheelsets and they just had the factory ship them a bunch, and that it was easier to dip into the production line at the point where the wheelsets were assembled rather than just the gears.
carl425You're being entirely too easy on LL. They sold a defective product. There would have been no fraud if they had recalled the defective product and repaired them themselves. Why should the consumer have to provide the labor to fix LL's mistake?...
The gear issue was an unfortunate one and could have been avoided. I think, though, that you're on dangerous ground labelling it as fraud.However, how many modellers would be capable of re-packing their loco(s) (the original packaging likely tossed immediately upon acquisition) in a manner that would survive the trip back to LL and then possibly back to China? And how many would be willing to pay the cost of postage? What about those who added details or decoders to their locos, or those who stripped and re-painted them for another road?Walthers at least provided replacement parts for free, and that for a product for which they were not even responsible. Anybody experiencing gear issues with these locos so long after the fact either hasn't used them for years or has just bought them (likely at bargain prices) even though they knew that the locos might have split gears. Sorry, but save the tears for a real issue - this one's history, as is the original LifeLike's connection to model railroading.
If I were modelling the diesel era and could find the 18 locos LifeLike made for my hometown railroad, I would gladly buy them and the gears to repair them.
EDIT: Oh, and to answer the original question, I don't know. Or was it a rhetorical one?
Soo Line fanThey could have included a go/no go gage if getting the correct width was a concern. Would have been cheaper and eliminated a lot of fraud.
But you still need a certain level of skill to remove the bottom gear box cover, without braking the tabs. Then get the bearings back in the side frames straight and button it back up. The push / pull / twist part of the repair is actually the easy part.
Life-Like did have a mess of gear ratios in their Protos. My SD60 has an 18:1 gear ratio using a reduction gear (which by the way, is an AMAZING runner), while my E7A has something closer to 10:1 I think? If you take a bunch of different Proto models and disassemble them, you'll find that practically every truck has its own unique gear system.
_________________________________________________________________
With the trend to RTR, ask yourself that question again. It's too much like 'work' to actually pull the wheels out of the gear axles and put them on a new one.
The attitudes of most people who post here with respect to kits and actually working on models is skewed from the general population - if this site were an accurate survey of hobby attitudes, then kit sales would be rising. Simpler to just sned the complete assebly and drop it in (and hope it didn't get bumped in shipping to change the gauge). Had they shipped just repalcement gears liek the Athearn part, indeed it would have eliminated the fraud, but I can see a whole lot of complaints - "look at this lousy customer service, they expect me to do WHAT?" Would have been a fine solution for me, you, and any number of other people who post here, but Joe down the street who only buys RTR equipment and is a table thumper of the first class because the prefab track on his 5x10 layout wher ehe can;t reach the middle has exactly one feeder because ho only ever bought one terminal track section is not going to want to and may not even know how to change out just the gear. He might muddle through taking the whole assembly out and dropping another one in.
And now I have figured out where the extra set of wheels I have came from - the first GP7 that I had with cracked gears was still when LL owned themselves and I got the replacements through them. I was surprised actually when the replacements had the wheels and gears. Of course I saved the old wheels - who wouldn't? I was always windering where they came from, I know I had bought NWSL wheels for a BB loco, but they were on the loco I bought them for.
Never understood why LL and later Walters serviced this issue as a wheel set and not just the gears. Obviously, modelers are able to change the gears as many are simply buying the Athearn axle gears.
They could have included a go/no go gage if getting the correct width was a concern. Would have been cheaper and eliminated a lot of fraud.
Kyle Walthers probably has the cost under $2 for these axles, maybe less. I would call them up and explain the situation. If they have good customer service, they'll send you the replacement parts. In business the customer is always right* (*within reason). When a company has good customer service, you will be more likely to buy from that company again. If Walthers is smart they will send you the replacement parts which they will make up when you buy another product from them. If they try to avoid sending replacement parts, then I would say something like, "I'll just go to Athearn and buy parts from them.". The fear of losing business should fix any problems regarding the warranty. If they still don't send you replacement parts, I would recommend Athearn parts. Walthers bent over backwards for some time "replacing" wheels for free without requiring proof that the supplicant actually had defective wheels, and got taken to the cleaners for their trouble. Interesting approach that you suggest.
Walthers probably has the cost under $2 for these axles, maybe less. I would call them up and explain the situation. If they have good customer service, they'll send you the replacement parts. In business the customer is always right* (*within reason). When a company has good customer service, you will be more likely to buy from that company again. If Walthers is smart they will send you the replacement parts which they will make up when you buy another product from them. If they try to avoid sending replacement parts, then I would say something like, "I'll just go to Athearn and buy parts from them.". The fear of losing business should fix any problems regarding the warranty.
If they still don't send you replacement parts, I would recommend Athearn parts.
carl425 rrinker Frank posted it up above - Athearn part #60024. I ordered several packs right from Athearn to have them on hand. I've got several of those. The post I asked about mentioned geared axles with nickel silver wheels. I have not seen those on Ebay, the Athearn site, or anywhere else.
rrinker Frank posted it up above - Athearn part #60024. I ordered several packs right from Athearn to have them on hand.
I've got several of those. The post I asked about mentioned geared axles with nickel silver wheels. I have not seen those on Ebay, the Athearn site, or anywhere else.
Yes, no one has those. That was what Life Like, and then Walters, was giving as replacements for cracked gears. There was a thought that the axles were too big, or the gears too small, and that caused the cracking - but the original wheels in the Athearn gears are just fine. Before Walthers, all you had to do was call Life Liek and say you had cracked gears, they'd send you 4 sets of wheels and gears. Since they are Athearn clones, you could take the wheels and use them to replace the inferior sintered iron wheels on BB locos. Unless the posts were deleted, they might still be here - many years ago, I recall people posting, more or less boasting about how they got free wheels for Athearn locos. Any wonder Walthers started asking for proof of purchase? NWSL probably sells compatible gears, and I know they have the wheels, I used them on my old BB locos. Already assembled together? I doubt anyone has that. NWSL probbaly has gears with the proper number of teeth for the other drive ratios like the E units, as well. NWSL has like everything driveline related.