Gauge of track in Canada question

[Kyle]

In the early days of the railroads there was no standard gauge.  Railroads choose their own gauge.  In the US, railroads weren't a national system. In fact some RRs choose an odd gauge to prevent competition from rival railroads.  Before the civil war, the North standardized, realizing that it was a lot morinefficient to create a nation wide system that could interchange rolling stock.  This helped the Union win the civil war.  After the civil war, with most of their tracks ripped up, and wanting to improve their economy, the south standardized.  I assume that Canada ended up standardizing sometime  before the 1900s so that they could easily trade with US.  RRs significantly reduced shipping costs and greatly improved the economy.

Now after two world wars, and the frequent invasions in Europe, all the countries distrusted each other, and saw the railroads as a great way for an enemy to move their forces quickly and efficiently which is why all of the gauges are different.  

During WWII, Hitler really showed how railroads could be strategically used to move troops and supplies quickly.  Not to mention, used RR to move and then support huge pieces of artillery.

Looking at Europe today, you can't blame them for being so paranoid. Not to mention the Cold War.

[P&Slocal]

maxman

 

 

7j43k

 

maxman

Of course, the real reason could have been that Pennsylvania was afraid of being invaded by New York.

 

 

 

 

 

"Eat bagels or die, Pennsy boy!"

 

 

Ed

 

 

 

 

"Bring it on, Central man.  We'll have your bagels for breakfast"

 

In the last 15 to 20 years, New Yawk and their Joisey cousins have successfully invaded Pennsylvania. Pretty much every county east of the Susquehanna is now overpopulated by that imperialist scum! And now they want to re-establish a rail line from the WBS area into NYC. 

[maxman]

7j43k

 

maxman

Of course, the real reason could have been that Pennsylvania was afraid of being invaded by New York.

 

 

 

 

 

"Eat bagels or die, Pennsy boy!"

 

 

Ed

 

"Bring it on, Central man.  We'll have your bagels for breakfast"

[DSchmitt]

According to this  http://content.sitezoogle.com.s3.amazonaws.com/u/131959/6deac5fca25c0c6bf96f2737d9503ef21a7d07d6/original/31-the-provincial-gauge.pdf?response-content-type=application/pdf&AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJUKM2ICUMTYS6ISA&Signature=UAn9edCZS/g0Zaf71gPRlP2P8kw%3D&Expires=1421625845    - By Charles Cooper   - His Railway page http://www.railwaypages.com/

  The Province of Canada Railway Grarentee Act was changed in 1851 to apply to 5'-6" gauge railways only.  The reasoning is subject to debate but may have been  influenced by mercantile interests in Portland Maine and the fact that quage was already being constructed to connect Portland to several Canadian cities. 

From Wikipedia: 

  In the USA   5'-6" gauge in Connecicut, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampture and Vermont was converted to Standard Guage in 1873

 "Provincial gauge" or "Texas gauge" of 5 ft 6 in (1,676 mm), was required by Texas law until 1875.

Most common  gauge in the southern USA was 5'- 0"

"In 1886, the southern railroads agreed to coordinate changing gauge on all their tracks. After considerable debate and planning, most of the southern rail network was converted from 5 ft (1,524 mm) gauge to 4 ft 9 in (1,448 mm) gauge, then the standard of the Pennsylvania Railroad, over two remarkable days beginning on Monday, May 31, 1886."

 

 

 

[betamax]

According to Omar Lavallee, the choice of Portland was that of commercial interests wanting to link Montreal to an ice-free port that could be used year round. This line was opened several years prior to the decision to support the use Provincial Gauge by the Gov't.

He also mentions that the choice of 5'6" probably had more to do with the purchase of equipment from Scotland made for that gauge than anything else.

[yougottawanta]

The source is a book I picked up at the Greenberg train show in Chantilly Va. It is called "North American Steam Locomative Builders and their insignia" by Harold Davies. The Author states " In choosing Portland, the Canadian authorities had passed by both Boston and Halifax, Nova Scotia....The choice of a gauge of 5'-6" has been much debated....influenced by the concerns of Canadian military authorities that a std gauge would be of assistance to American forces in the event of war." The time period appers to be the 1850s.

YGW

[betamax]

yougottawanta

Does anyone know why in the 1800s Canada had 5'-6" track ? I have read that the Canadian military were concerned that if Canada matched our tracks that America would invade Canada using the Rail way system. Is there any truth to that ? Or were there other reasons ?

Thanks

YGW

 

Yes, in the Province of Canada broad gauge was used, called Provincial Gauge, and should you want gov't finanicial asssistance, you had to use it. That lasted from 1851 to 1870.

 

see:

http://www.exporail.org/can_rail/Canadian%20Rail_no141_1963.pdf

 

 

["JaBear"]

I tend to go along with Pathfinders reasoning. In the early days it depended on who had the ear of the promoters of the various railroad schemes as to which gauge was used. For Canada, have a look here......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_gauge_in_Canada

......and if you look here, things weren’t that cut and dried in the USA.......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_gauge_in_the_United_States

Cheers, the Bear.

[mlehman]

I pulled LaVallee's NG RRs of Canada to see what it said. 4'8.5" was the gauge of the initial railways, but in 1851 the "ill-conceived" legislation "had the effect of coercing the  construction of the Canadian trunk line system of the 1850s and 1860s to this arbitray width." (page 10)

I think LaVallee is a bit more accurate in ascribing this at least as much to fear of economic domination as it was of discouraging military invasion. Apparently the scheme fell apart in the 1870s.

So the broad gauge was never used everywhere in Canada and didn't last long.

[CNCharlie]

YGW,

What is your source regarding Canada and 5'6" gauge?

I suppose there could have been a line somewhere with that gauge but most lines were standard gauge. 

I am aware that Russia used 5' as a deterent to invasion but not here. 

CN Charlie

[Pathfinder]

I am not sure about any strategic reason for the gauge selection, you must remember that at the time there was still a bit of debate about which gauge was best, sort of like the Beta vs VHS (remember those) debate.  It took a while before the ghosts of Romans past persevered and the “standard” gauge actually became standard for most of Canada.

There was strategic reasons for the placement of the CPR, especially in BC and the Shield portions.    Pierre Berton’s books have excellent discussions on that issue.

[7j43k]

maxman

Of course, the real reason could have been that Pennsylvania was afraid of being invaded by New York.

 

 

"Eat bagels or die, Pennsy boy!"

 

 

Ed

[maxman]

I'm not sure that there were strategic reasons, but maybe so.  More likely that this was the era when there was not any agreement that standardization was the way to go.  Or maybe someone wanted to make money when the freight had to be transfered from one railroad's gage to another.

Interesting article on Wikipedia on the Erie Railroads logic for having a 6 foot gage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erie_Gauge_War) during the same time frame you mention.  Of course, the real reason could have been that Pennsylvania was afraid of being invaded by New York.

[cx500]

I believe you are right about the 5'-6" gauge being selected for strategic reasons.  Remember, only 40 years earlier the USA attempted to invade the British colonies to the north (they later became Canada).  And shortly after the end of the US civil war, Canada had to repel attacks launched by terrorists (Fenians) based in the US.  In that same era there were a couple of railways in Ontario that were built to a gauge of 3'-6".  The railways in Prince Edward Island also used that narrow gauge.  (3'-6" was fairly widespread throughout the British Empire.)  Slightly later a fairly extensive network of 3'-0 gauge was built in southern Alberta and south into Montana.  They were all soon converted to standard gauge.  Commercial needs trumped any official paranoia.  

Newfoundland, which joined Canada in 1949 kept its 3'-6" gauge right up to abandonment in 1988.

John

[jrbernier]

  That one I have never heard of.  I read that Russia has 5'0" gauge due to fears of western Europe invasion...

  Since 4' 8 1/2" gauge was invented in England, I would think that Canada would also use 'Standard Gauge' - They did have 3'6" narrow gauge in the Maritimes(Newfoundland).  And this was done by the Newfoundland Legislature in 1880.  Construction started the following year.  Newfoundland was not even a part of the Canadian Confederation until 1949!

Jim

[mlehman]

You're not saying that ALL Canadian railways were 5'6" right? AFAIK, that was just one gauge among the many that were used in the early and middle 19th centuries. Standardization in the US largely occurred in the 1880s, so presume Canada was similarly timed. That's when the bulk of Southern RRs were converted, as well as some of the narrowguages. Of course, the Rio Grande never entirely standardized.

I presume this was one or several lines in a region. Was this mentioned?

[yougottawanta]

Does anyone know why in the 1800s Canada had 5'-6" track ? I have read that the Canadian military were concerned that if Canada matched our tracks that America would invade Canada using the Rail way system. Is there any truth to that ? Or were there other reasons ?

Thanks

YGW