mlehmanYeah, but I figured since you were being semi-serious it was a good time to say something I was going to anyway, which was also only semi-serious.
Got it. Well, no harm, no foul. This thread is interesting to read.
BATMAN Joel, I forgot to thank you for the link. That is a really beautiful layout. Thanks to all that answered, it appears that foam used in layout building has been around longer than I thought it had been. There seems to be many ways to get the job done in just about all aspects of this hobby. How we build our benchwork, do our wiring, create landforms or laying track. Like a good engineer (not the train type) we should look at all the ways we can do things and choose the one thats best for the situation at hand and be open to incorporating more than one method on a single layout.
Joel, I forgot to thank you for the link. That is a really beautiful layout. Thanks to all that answered, it appears that foam used in layout building has been around longer than I thought it had been.
There seems to be many ways to get the job done in just about all aspects of this hobby. How we build our benchwork, do our wiring, create landforms or laying track. Like a good engineer (not the train type) we should look at all the ways we can do things and choose the one thats best for the situation at hand and be open to incorporating more than one method on a single layout.
Brent,
Your welcome. Gordon Odegard--the mastermind behind the Clinchfield--was a truly talented craftsman and great ambassador of the hobby. I was glad to learn that the Clinchfield continues to live on. A great example of how craftsmanship never grows old.
Joel
Modeling the C&O New River Subdivision circa 1949 for the fun of it!
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
NorthWestWith all due repect, Mike, I don't think you got the (extremely bad) joke.
Yeah, but I figured since you were being semi-serious it was a good time to say something I was going to anyway, which was also only semi-serious. I miss things like that, emoticons recommended, being as sleep deprived as I've been lately. Either everything seems like a joke after awhile or I play it straight... which is usually good for some laughs in itself as you've just discovered.
If that was 3/4" ply, it would be sagging, maybe not as much as some kids wear their jeans, but it still wouldn't be right. Thanks for the enlightenment about the spline's behavior.
Dan and Dave,
Thanks for the history
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
The earliest article on foam that I recalled in Model Railroader was the January 1965 issue (memorable because it was the first issue of my subscription - that's right I am a 50 year subscriber) "Styrofoam for scenery" by Paul Stromberg. But the foam Paul used was the greenish airy stuff that back in those days was mostly associated with florist shops, not the dense stuff we see today, or bead board either.
There was at least one earlier article "Carry your equipment in Styrofoam" by John De Steese in the November 1964 issue, the second issue (after August 1964) of MR that I ever purchased. But I had no recollection of that particular article even though as a kid I would virtually memorize each issue.
Dave Nelson
With all due repect, Mike, I don't think you got the (extremely bad) joke.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/foamer
Sorry if I was confusing. I should have put an emoticon at the end to emphasize my poor attempts at humor.
I seem to remember seeing something in an old Model Railroader about somebody using foam in the late 1960s. IIRC, the product was used for scenery on a small, portable layout.
The first article I remember reading was an article in Railroad Model Craftsman in the mid-late 1970s, in which a fellow built a layout using foam board. (I don't recall if he was using bead board, or extruded foam.) He was also using chemicals to create scenic effects.
Extruded foam finally came of age in the hobby when Gordon Odegard built the portable Clinchfield Railroad for series in Model Railroader. But even then, it seemed there was a long period between the Clinchfield series, and widespread use of the product in the later 1980s.
Dan
Spline cost about $.16 a foot And that includes roadbed, no cork or foam roadbed required as the shoulder is built right in.
Horizontal and vertical transitions are so natural you can't really see where they start or stop. Superelevation is quickly achieved with a couple of passes with the rasp.
Some of us love to use our power tools. Argh! Argh! Argh! If you don't have the right saw to cut it, then it likely isn't worth the trouble to get it all cut somehow.
I was really disappointed at how fast it went up, it felt like it was over before I really got started.
I will use spline under my entire mainline next time, now I know what it entails. However there is nothing to say you can't use more than one kind of subroadbed on the same layout.
Can't really see where the climb starts.
Edit: I have had this unsupported piece like this for years and there is absolutely no sag in it. It is over 4 feet long. I am not sure whether plywood would do the same.
last mountain & eastern hogger Just asking, as I have no experience with it. How can you say "spline" is cheaper when a big majority of it must end up as saw dust when making it ? Johnboy out...............
Just asking, as I have no experience with it.
How can you say "spline" is cheaper when a big majority of it must end up as saw dust when making it ?
Johnboy out...............
A sheet of Masonite is pretty cheap, and it's already made of sawdust. Perhaps the sawdust generated by the cutting could be returned to the manufacturer for re-use...sorta like returnable pop bottles.
mlehman....Other than making sure your curve starts and stops are far enough apart to allow for the designated curvature, then the splines have a natural tendency to give the right curve smoothly.This takes care of the transition nicely for horizontal curves, but I've often wondered how much trouble vertical curves would be.....
I'd guess that making eased transitions into and out of superelevation might prove difficult, too. With plywood roadbed, it's easily done but I'm not sure that glued-together spline would allow much torsional movement....perhaps - I've no experience using it.
Wayne
from Saskatchewan, in the Great White North..
We have met the enemy, and he is us............ (Pogo)
riogrande5761What I've had trouble wrapping my head around is how do you fix the radius of spline sub roadbed?
Haven't done it myself, but the way to go is to use a min radius template for checking, but mostly it's laid out a lot like a real RR. You know the points where curves originate from tangents and you tie things together with the straight track.
Other than making sure your curve starts and stops are far enough apart to allow for the designated curvature, then the splines have a natural tendency to give the right curve smoothly.This takes care of the transition nicely for horizontal curves, but I've often wondered how much trouble vertical curves would be.
Then there's lots of glue and clamps involved, just in case that sounds too easy. From what I've read, it seems to build faster than you would expect once you've had some practice with it.
NorthWestConsidering the struggles that early model railroaders had to go through in order to construct a layout, I'd expect that only very devout railfans or "foamers" would have built layouts. So, foam first arrived on the model railroad scene at the beginning?
No, in the beginning was plaster, sometimes even cement and [gasp! ] asbestos. Don't try that at home, please.
Styrofoam was a Dow product, developed for commerical use by Ray McIntire from a process first described by a Swedish chemist, first used for liferaft's in WWII. It was used in commerical applications after the war, then started being widely used in homes, etc in the 60s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styrofoam
BATMAN Another thread got me wondering. Do any of you (other) old geezers recall when you first heard of foam, or for that matter spline being used in MRR construction?
Another thread got me wondering. Do any of you (other) old geezers recall when you first heard of foam, or for that matter spline being used in MRR construction?
First of all, I'm not an "old geezer" . Not sure if this was the first time, but certainly one of, if not the first to be published in the model railroad press. The late MR editor Gordon Odegard did a series on building the N-scale Clinchfield in the late 1970's in MR. I remember this project series made quite an impression on the young me at the time. I was fascinated about the use of extruded foam for scenery because of its durability and relative light weight. Guess it stuck because today I use foam exclusively in constructing scenes on my C&O.
BTW, the Clinchfield still lives... http://www.trainboard.com/grapevine/showthread.php?99783-Cleaning-the-Clinchfield-N-Scale-layout
What I've had trouble wrapping my head around is how do you fix the radius of spline sub roadbed? Seems like you would have to make a template and then match the spline to that. But if you have various radii, then that would be multiple templates. I guess thats why I never bothered - I just draw out radii on plywood with a trammel and thats it - simpler it seems.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Considering the struggles that early model railroaders had to go through in order to construct a layout, I'd expect that only very devout railfans or "foamers" would have built layouts. So, foam first arrived on the model railroad scene at the beginning?
(Ducks and runs )
mlehman It was often considered a premium form of roadbed, probably because you really needed a table saw to produce it, but certainly it works well if you go to the trouble of doing it.
If you have the means to cut it I would really recommend spline. I have probably done all the other methods at some point in my life and not only is spline incredibly cheap but is beautiful to work with.
I would not have guest that foam would have been used so many decades ago. It probably was very expensive stuff back then.
Thanks guys.
Good work tracking that spline stuff down Carl, I knew it went back aways. It was often considered a premium form of roadbed, probably because you really needed a table saw to produce it, but certainly it works well if you go to the trouble of doing it.
I vaguely remember foam coming around 1980ish. I seem to recall Frary and Hayden, who done work in RMC earlier I was quite impressed by, returning via MR working with it instead of hardshell like on previous projects? Or maybe I'm confusing them with some of M. Furlow's work? I was an irregular reader of MR during the late 70s/early 80s, so could have missed something else too.
Great question, Brent.
Looked harder and found spline roadbed in December 1947. This article doesn't imply that it's a new idea.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Spline roadbed is certainly nothing new, so it's surprising that it wasn't mentioned in MR until 2000. A local modeler built a huge HO scale layout using spline roadbed from a track plan and spline idea he found in a late 1940's or early 1950's modeling magazine.
First reference to foam in MR is September 1959.
First reference to spline in MR is March 2000, but I did it in 1990 with ripped 1-by pine and I didn't invent it. I'd bet it dates back to the 50's or even before.
Edit: found a spline article in June 1967