Lionel Leaving HO

[TrainFreak409]

What does everyone think about this? Lionel produces two models, the Challenger and Veranda, in HO, and now, they have decided to quit HO. Now, me personally, I would at least think they would stick with it for a bit longer, to get accurate feed back on their models. Can two high priced models give a company the information they need?

~[8]~ TrainFreak409 ~[8]~

[Anonymous]

The fact that MTH won a $40 million lawsuit against Lionel could have something to do with their dropping the HO line. We may never know.

Bob Boudreau

[jrbernier]

The MTH lawsuit/judgement may have something to do with the decision, but I think the HO line just was not working out. Lionel has been in and out of HO about 4 times and does not seem to last in the HO market.

Jim Bernier

[simon1966]

Based on the evidence I have seen so far, Lionel made some significant errors with this effort into HO.

They clearly over estimated the demand. How long has the blow out sale been going on now? The fact that they are not all gone yet suggests a huge blunder in their estimate. They must have taken a real cash flow hit with this.

Were a Turbine and the Challenger good choices for getting into the market? Perhaps a simpler, lower cost model with wider appeal would have been a better starting point?

It does not seem as if they got all the bugs ironed out of the models either. There have been several reports of problems on the forum.

So all in all, this has been a misguided effort. I would imagine that some heads may have rolled as a result.

[CP5415]

If they were smart, they would have started out with a wider consumer base locomotive like Simon has stated.

Not everyone has the desire of need for UP only locomotives. Especially ones made to run on broad curves such as the Challenger & Turbine
I don't.
A decent Mikido, Pacific or Hudson would have been better.

But that's my 2 cents.

Gordon

[Big_Boy_4005]

Guys, Lionel has tried to make it in HO at least 3 other times in their history, dating all the way back to the 1960's. Each time they have failed for a different reason. This time they offered maybe their best products ever, but the MTH lawsuit seems to have rendered that moot.

The Lionel name does not translete well into the HO market. I don't expect that MTH will either. How in God's name could they possibly compete with the likes of Athearn, Atlas Walthers, etc.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: The Lionel name does not translete well into the HO market. I don't expect that MTH will either. How in God's name could they possibly compete with the likes of Athearn, Atlas Walthers, etc.

You forgot TYCO![:D]

[chutton01]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CP5415

If they were smart, they would have started out with a wider consumer base locomotive like Simon has stated.

Just NOT another F7!!!! [sigh]

(I think I've only owned one Lionel HO product in a 30 year span, this being a missle launching flat car).

[ckape]

Well, I'm just going to chime in on everything here:

As an HO person, when I think of Lionel I think of tinplate 3-rail O, not high-end HO

While the turbines are interesting locomotives, they're only really used by one railroad in one era, which is very limiting

Sure they're nice looking models, but they're also out of my price range.

As for the models they could make, I think we've got several pages of threads with some great ideas on this forum somewhere.

[timthechef]

I agree. I'm astonished at the prices of many of the new loco releases. I know that I can't pay $300+ for a locomotive.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ckape

Well, I'm just going to chime in on everything here:

As an HO person, when I think of Lionel I think of tinplate 3-rail O, not high-end HO

While the turbines are interesting locomotives, they're only really used by one railroad in one era, which is very limiting

Sure they're nice looking models, but they're also out of my price range.

As for the models they could make, I think we've got several pages of threads with some great ideas on this forum somewhere.

I take it you aren't in the market for Pennsy K-4's from MTH either.[swg]

Yeah Rod, Tyco too.[;)][:p]

[3railguy]

As Simon posted, Lionel did make some blunders. Poor pulling power of the challenger is one major blunder. Overproduction could be another. And the lawsuit may of had some impact.

I agree that the stuff is a bit pricey for the typical HO budget. $100 dollar Kato and Atlas engines along with $10 Athearn and MDC kits seem to be the biggest sellers. These are from my own observations and I could be all wet. $500 engines are not for the masses.

Athearn as we know it today has been around for what? Three, four, decades? They are still offering the same kits they made 30 years ago and they sell well. Why? They seem to have the right chemistry and the right price. Something that is very difficult to achieve.

MTH stuff is pricey too and they are attracting a small affluent crowd. MTH wants to keep their own unique technology to themselves with patents. They expect people to buy DCS controllers and buy only MTH engines where DCC engines won't work with their controllers. That philosophy works in the 3 rail O gauge market where brand loyalist are abound and not many standards exist. I doubt it will work in the HO market. I do not see many brand loyalists in HO and industry standards pretty much rule in a buyer's thinking. If MTH is slow to get involved in HO standards by sharing technology, they may be out the door. They certainly are quick to take open technolgy developed by others but you'll be damned if you use technology that is identical to MTH.

[Anonymous]

Mabey Lionel would have learned from their first two mistakes, Veranda and UP Challenger, and actually make a good locomotive that can sell well.
T'would be swell if Lionel announced another giant steamer of vast improvement over the previous flops instead of giving up for the 3rd time.

But if production quality continued to be the same as this low level Challenger I got, Then I'm glad they left HO.

[AggroJones]

I think if they hung in there a little longer, they may have had a break through. BLI's first two productions were not up to the level their at now. As time goes on, you learn from your mistakes and your products will get better.

Lionel leaving HO is a downer for me cause this means one less steam manufacture. Which lessens our chance for a DM&IR Yellowstone.

[bcammack]

I suspect they presumed that their ardent following in O would instantly translate into HO. Frankly, I think they jumped in a shark tank wearing baloney underwear... [:)]

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bcammack

I suspect they presumed that their ardent following in O would instantly translate into HO. Frankly, I think they jumped in a shark tank wearing baloney underwear... [:)]

Nah, that flawed logic belongs exclusively to MTH.[swg]

Lionel has made different blunders each time with their HO attempts.[B)]

[AntonioFP45]

Back in the 1980s, didn't Lionel produce an HO scale Southern Pacific Daylight Steamer? The GS4?

(Bachmann made one in the 70s---not a good runner)

[dehusman]

Lionel made a version of the Hustler (or maybe it was an Athearn rebrand) and a E-33 electric that was on a GP-9 frame back in the 50's.

Dave H.

[twhite]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Back in the 1980s, didn't Lionel produce an HO scale Southern Pacific Daylight Steamer? The GS4?

(Bachmann made one in the 70s---not a good runner)

[xx(]Antonio--yes, there was a Lionel GS-4 back in the '80's, but I don't know whether they made it or just licensed it from Bachmann. I got one lettered for Western Pacific, and it was a real grinder and could barely pull its tender. It wasn't around for very long, as I remember. I finally gave mine to my nephew, he promptly burned out the motor and put it in a park on display on his own model RR. For all I know, it's probably still there.
Tom

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

Lionel made a version of the Hustler (or maybe it was an Athearn rebrand) and a E-33 electric that was on a GP-9 frame back in the 50's.

I don't think the Hustler was made by Athearn. I saw one of the Lionel models once, and it had a gear drive, as opposed to Athearn's rubber band drive.

Bob Boudreau

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by twhite

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Back in the 1980s, didn't Lionel produce an HO scale Southern Pacific Daylight Steamer? The GS4?

(Bachmann made one in the 70s---not a good runner)

[xx(]Antonio--yes, there was a Lionel GS-4 back in the '80's, but I don't know whether they made it or just licensed it from Bachmann. I got one lettered for Western Pacific, and it was a real grinder and could barely pull its tender. It wasn't around for very long, as I remember. I finally gave mine to my nephew, he promptly burned out the motor and put it in a park on display on his own model RR. For all I know, it's probably still there.
Tom

Hopefully BLI will make a decent version of this unit (I'm surprised they haven't being that it is a popular steamer)

[AggroJones]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

QUOTE: Originally posted by twhite

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Back in the 1980s, didn't Lionel produce an HO scale Southern Pacific Daylight Steamer? The GS4?

(Bachmann made one in the 70s---not a good runner)

[xx(]Antonio--yes, there was a Lionel GS-4 back in the '80's, but I don't know whether they made it or just licensed it from Bachmann. I got one lettered for Western Pacific, and it was a real grinder and could barely pull its tender. It wasn't around for very long, as I remember. I finally gave mine to my nephew, he promptly burned out the motor and put it in a park on display on his own model RR. For all I know, it's probably still there.
Tom

Hopefully BLI will make a decent version of this unit (I'm surprised they haven't being that it is a popular steamer)

Bachmann has dibs on the GS-4. The Spectrum version was going to cost $200 and was supposed be out in 2003.The release date has been pushed back to summer 2005 and the price will surely be higher.[V]

[AntonioFP45]

Hello AggroJones,

Good to read from you.

I don't understand how these agreements work. Bachmann has dibs on the GS-4--How does that work? Will it be sound equipped? Does the manufacturer get permission and licensing from the railroad and then go from there?

I'm just thinking that BLI would make an excellent model compared to Bachmann. Perhaps I'm being too judgmental but so far BLI has done a remarkable job on their steamers, in spite of a few problems here and there. (I guess in this case Union Pacific---oooh boy! I can see the shivers going up some people's backs!).

[Anonymous]

I forecasted this exit way back before Lionel produced their first HO locomotive. I said then that they couldn't make in the HO market because of the competition. Would they listen, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[Anonymous]

If I have the story straight, the lawsuit filed by MTH against Lionel (and won) was for stealing proprietory data, like locomotive designs and market assessments. It is possible that Lionel based their entry into HO on less than accurate data. Also, a company the size of Lionel will stagger under the burden of paying the 40.7 million dollar settlement to MTH and this might have influenced their strategic withdrawal from the small train market. Those directly involved with the mess covered in the lawsuit are not longer with Lionel, they did get their walking papers. I just hope Lionel is sufficiently financially solvent to withstand the enormity of the settlement against them

Tom

[Sunset Limited]

I bought my first Lionel at a estate sale about 10 years ago. It was a GS-4 SP Daylight. Being a SP fan, I was so excited about buying this locomotive, I went home ran it a couple a times, then it started making noises in the motor. I took it apart, and I can't believe Lionel put this tiny little slot car motor in it, it's not a square open motor or cheap can motor, but a side motor inbedded in the weight of the locomotive! I was going to buy a bowser pacific and modify it, but it was cheaper buying a Bachman Plus SP GS-4. And when I received it, What a difference! Real Motor, much better pulling power! The Lionel is almost identical, except for the mouse motor, plastic tender wheels and no pickups on the tender. I still have the Lionel box and locomotive.

[AggroJones]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Hello AggroJones,

Good to read from you.

I don't understand how these agreements work. Bachmann has dibs on the GS-4--How does that work? Will it be sound equipped? Does the manufacturer get permission and licensing from the railroad and then go from there?

No. There is no real agreement. Its just that if a manufacutre does somthing accurately and sucessful, then other manufactures might leave it at that. Unless they feel their version can beat it. Like BLI announcing the N&W J even though Bachmann Spectrum released 2 versions recently. Hardcore N&W fans bitched about the red stripe being the wrong tone. And apparently somthing is whack with the tender draw bar. I guess BLI thinks they can beat the Spectrum version.

No one else is going to come along with another C&O Allegheny. The Rivarossi one is too bomb.

I didn't hear anything about the Spectrum GS-4 coming with sound. I hope not. If I'm still around I'd like to be able to afford one.

[Anonymous]

lionel is a toy train maker, all of their "o" gauge trains are toys. i have one of their old alco fa's, and it's a toy. they're getting out of "ho"? YAY !!!!! good bye !!

[boomer5344]

MTH will be successful in HO where Lionel failed. MTH HO products are 100% compatable w/NMRA DCC standard (I read the brochure). If what MTH has done in the
very competative O gauge market is any indication. They will eventually OWN the majority of the HO locomotive market and everyone will benefit from it. Just watch.

Lionel picked two engines that did't have wide appeal. A group of USRA patterned locomotives like a Pacific,Mikado,0-8-0 ... would of been a lot better. Blame it again on Lionel arrogance.

I hope Mike decides to get into N.

[boomer5344]

By the way, the Lionel HO GS4 manufactured in the 70's was a sister engine to the Bachmann model. Both were manufactured by Kader ind. in Hong Kong. Kader is a major manufacturer of model trains today. They own Bachmann, Mainline, Spectrum,
Liliput among others.
MTH has its own factory in Korea and the fit an finish of the Premier and Railking engines I have are flawless. We are talking beyond brass quality/detail at a good price.