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The Germans Are Always miles Ahead Of Us

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Posted by BATMAN on Wednesday, October 8, 2014 10:10 AM

 Well, one of my relatives invented the wheel, thus starting the transportation industry. Another member of my family discovered fire thus making huge progress in the energy sector, allowing all of you other people to have much easier, more comfortable lives. And don't get me started on the agricultural industry. If an earlier ancester of mine didn't have a craving for apple's, your diet's would be much more limited to this day.

So you see, if it hadn't been for my family, you would all be running around naked hiding under a tree. Oh ya, an early relative of mine started the clothing industry as well. Stick out tongueSmile, Wink & Grin

Brent

"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."

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Posted by wjstix on Wednesday, October 8, 2014 7:59 AM

The German co. Marklin was the first to offer different track gauges for model trains. Before that each company had one gauge that they used, usually different from other company's gauges. Marklin numberbed them 1-2-3-4 with No.1 gauge (today's "G gauge") being the smallest. When they developed a smaller size it was called 0 (zero) gauge, when was often pronounced like the letter O rather than the number 0 - "O gauge". Of course HO is "Half O" so Marklin affected that size also. Many years later, they introduced Z scale/gauge also.

Stix
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Posted by John Busby on Wednesday, October 8, 2014 5:59 AM

Hi all

Are the germans realy that far ahead of us.

Or is it realy a case of different requirements.Smile, Wink & Grin

Should I be placing an illegal order for pom pom's to shoot down all these strange new air craft that it seems are going to be buzzing around over my tiny patch of the world the one peice that is my domain and castle.Devil

regards John

 

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Posted by "JaBear" on Wednesday, October 8, 2014 5:08 AM

Dusty Solo
Perhaps I should just fade off from this post, but Bear, you have thrown down a challenge & I have without shame swallowed the bait.

Alas my bluff has been well and truly called Embarrassed , and you had the good grace not to rub my nose in it by not mentioning the SR71, which while not a passenger aircraft of course, did prove that the US could build a really fast aircraft.

I shall retire from the field bowed but only slightly broken.Sigh

Cheers, the Bear.Smile

"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."

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Posted by Dusty Solo on Wednesday, October 8, 2014 4:43 AM

Perhaps I should just fade off from this post, but Bear, you have thrown down a challenge & I have without shame swallowed the bait.

Before making some of those ill informed asscetions with accompanying racial epithets it

 may have been prudent to have done some digging around for some facts. But you are in luck here because I can help you out in that regard.

 

Fact: the US was not behind the eight ball regarding supersonic passenger air transport. As early as the mid 1950's work had begun at Boeing on an SST. This was to attract federal funding for further developement. Concord was at this stage much latter in 1962. Locheed also planned to develop an SST & the Russians entered supersonic flight with the Tupelov

 a Concord look-a-like.

 

Boeings design was far larger than the Concord with double the seating capacity - 270 seats.

 

What killed off the US SST projects was in fact that, apart from some design difficulties surrounding the swept wing, it was generally accepted in Seattle & Washington that a world filled with sonic booms would not be tolerated by American citizens on the ground. This proved to be true when the people of NY & NJ became quite upset as the Concord happily went about its business smashing glass windows as it went. There was also concern over the effect SST would have on the ozone layer. This was at a time of course when governments & industry cared about such things.

Anyway, have some fun & do a google search - its an inexpensive way to get an education.

Oh, btw, I am from the south so not really a "Yank" as you so delicately put itBig Smile

 

Dusty.

 

 

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Posted by "JaBear" on Tuesday, October 7, 2014 6:40 AM

Dusty Solo
But that is A/C & this forum is about modeling trains & railroads so I had better clam up about machines that fly.

I should really take heed of Dustys good advice as I have been trying very hard to bite my tongue and behave myself but that has proved too much for this Bear.
I would suggest that it’s fairly obvious that the Boeing and Aerospatiale BAC management and design teams were looking at two entirely different solutions for passenger movement, both momentously brave leaps forward as to what had preceded both aircraft. So any “Mines better than yours” is IMO somewhat superfluous, though now to really throw the cat (or should that be Bear) amongst the pigeons, any airminded son of the Empire will tell you that one reason that the Concorde did not do as well as it deserved was that because they were banned from creating sonic booms over the Continental US mainly because the Yanks were so far behind the 8 ball in supersonic passenger aircraft design and didn’t want to be shown up by the Limeys and the Frogs.Stick out tongueWinkSmile, Wink & Grin

Cheers, the Bear.Whistling

"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."

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Posted by Dusty Solo on Tuesday, October 7, 2014 5:00 AM

Your posts, Andrea mostly contain interesting facts & things to ponder & to learn from. This latest offering is no exception.

As an enthusiastic modeler of flying boats & transport aircraft of the piston era I discovered some interesting information in your post

Interesting as it is the point you make is about  a size & era comparison, However, I beleive the Boeing 747 Jumbo influenced passenger transport to such a dramatic extent that its influence on civilian aviation has been profound & far reaching.

The British & their French partners in the Concord beleived speed was the direction passenger aviation would take - they just plain got it wrong. Exclusivity for the pampered & well off who could afford the huge cost of flying on the very limited route network seviced by both BOAC/BA & Air France, the only carriers who persevered with the Concord, was a serious & costly misscalculation.The US carrier Braniff flew a couple of them out of Dallas/Fort Worth until they came to their senses. While the people at Boeing new that for the future, passenger air travel would be in a kind of aviation mass transport at an affordable price That is the enduring influence & legacy of the 747. 

But that is A/C & this forum is about modeling trains & railroads so I had better clam up about machines that fly.

I did enjoy reading your post - I just wanted to tell you that.

Dusty

 

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Posted by andrechapelon on Monday, October 6, 2014 9:42 PM

First jumbo aircraft 747 (which a lot lasted the British/French Concord)

 

Not true. The Messerschmitt 323 Gigant preceded the 747 by a quarter century:

http://tinyurl.com/od9btcu

 

Then there was the Dornier Do X which preceded the Me 323 by more than a decade: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_Do_X

 

How about the Soviet Tuplev ANT-20, a 1930's aircraft with a wingspan approximating that of a modern 747? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_ANT-20

Not leaving our own country out, there was the Douglas XB-19, first flown in mid 1941. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_XB-19

And of course, there was the B-36, a rather larrge aircraft with a 230' wingspan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convair_B-36_Peacemaker 

The Martin Mars had a 200 foot winglspan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_JRM_Mars

Not to mention the Hughes "Spruce Goose" with a wingspan longer than a football field as well as the longest wingspan of any aircraft ever built: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hughes_H-4_Hercules

The Brits had the Saunders Roe 'Princess", no slouch in the size department: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saunders-Roe_Princess

Andre

 

It's really kind of hard to support your local hobby shop when the nearest hobby shop that's worth the name is a 150 mile roundtrip.
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Posted by rrebell on Monday, October 6, 2014 4:37 PM

Kyle
 
Dusty Solo

"Always" ahead of us, BATMAN?

Dusty

 

 

 

If we want to discuss this, let's look back in history.

The US had the first:

  • Assembly lines, and first mass produced car Ford Model T
  • First airplane
  • First jumbo aircraft 747 (which a lot lasted the British/French Concord)
  • First and ONLY 5th generation fighter jet (F22 Raptor)
  • A whole lot more 
 

The first assembly line was at the Venetian Arsenal in the 1600's (they produced ships). The first airplane was flown in the US. First Jumbo aircraft, need to define that one. Last first 5th generation fighter, yeah but who they going to fight, maybe aliens?

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Posted by Run Eight on Monday, October 6, 2014 3:58 PM

The German Model Railroad Products manufacturers, still produce close to 100% of their respective goods in the Republic of Germany.

Can not say the same for the vast majority of the U.S. based companies though!!!

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Posted by -E-C-Mills on Thursday, October 2, 2014 11:11 PM

Well, your probably already getting your photo taken, at stop lights, by satellite, google...  A bit disturbing perhaps.

The issue of automation and the elimination of labor continues (remember when looms were threatening the weavers?).  I think in the future there is going to need to be a universal dividend paid to everyone because robots will be doing more and more of the work.  Otherwise nobody will be able to buy the products the robots make (and deliver LOL).

I wonder, maybe a person would opt in for drone delivery?  Set up a little drop zone area with a readable bar code target...

I also wonder, how much wind or weather would be ground the drones.  Drone crashes due to bad weather...

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Posted by Kyle on Thursday, October 2, 2014 3:58 PM

hon30critter

You know what! I really don't want something flying over my back yard taking pictures! When my wife and I are getting into the hot tub sans bathing suits I suspect that you really don't want to see that either!Smile, Wink & GrinLaughLaughEmbarrassed

OK, deliver to the front door - no problem, but if you miss your target then I might have to borrow Jabear's shotgun.

Why do I feel more like a fossil every day? Don't answer - stupid question. Being senile and unaware of my surroundings seems to get more attractive every day!LaughLaughLaugh

Dave

 

I really don't want anything flying over me taking pictures, period. Unless I control who sees the pictures and how and where they are stored.

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Posted by Dusty Solo on Thursday, October 2, 2014 3:41 PM

Miles is the one that works for me, BATMAN. Imagine the song by the 60's group, The Byrds, "Eight Miles High" In metric that would be, "12.8748km High" - it's just not the same really.

Dusty

 

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Posted by BATMAN on Thursday, October 2, 2014 10:38 AM

hon30critter
When my wife and I are getting into the hot tub sans bathing suits

Hey! HEy! HEY! It is still breakfast time out here on the West coast and I am trying to eat! Do you mind!Laugh

Brent

"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."

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Posted by BATMAN on Thursday, October 2, 2014 10:32 AM

Dusty Solo

Just a friendly non threatening or a controversial observation meant in good humor, but because both Germany & Canada use the metric system,  the heading should perhaps have included kilometers rather than miles?Big Smile

 

 

Dusty.

Dusty, people that use the metric system (at least in my experience) can use the imperial system just as easily. Besides there are all those great old songs that have the word "miles" in them. Can you imagine Cat using the word kilometre's in this song.Laugh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNId6M4SSNk

I wonder if Cat is Lion's favourite musician?Hmm

Brent

"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."

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Posted by BATMAN on Thursday, October 2, 2014 9:54 AM

No worries Dusty. My concerns were directed  more towards Mr. Kyle who seemed to get a bit defensive at my attempt to have some fun. Maybe he thought the word "us" meant the U.S. instead of "us" (as in you and me). Another failure of the our youth to understand the job of punctuation in writing?

As far as a peeing contest goes, it was decided not to include it in the Olympic's as it was determined that the same country would win the gold every year. To avoid anymore trouble I won't name the country, but anyone that has been to Oktoberfest knows the in's and out's of what I'm talking about.BeerBeerBeerBeerBeer

 

Brent

"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."

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Posted by Dusty Solo on Thursday, October 2, 2014 5:01 AM

Just a friendly non threatening or a controversial observation meant in good humor, but because both Germany & Canada use the metric system,  the heading should perhaps have included kilometers rather than miles?Big Smile

Dusty.

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 2, 2014 4:59 AM

Dave - you are not alone!

Where is your friendly bank teller, with whom you used to chat while getting your cash? Where is the nice mailman, delivering your mail while exchanging a little neighborhood gossip? Where is your friendly gas station attendant, cleaning the windshield of your car while filling `er up?. Where is your friendly streetcar conductor, telling you in time when to leave the train?

The list will get endless. What I don´t understand is, that it seems to be better for our society to have millions of unemployed, but that´s getting into politics, so I better keep my mouth shut!

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Posted by hon30critter on Thursday, October 2, 2014 4:19 AM

You know what! I really don't want something flying over my back yard taking pictures! When my wife and I are getting into the hot tub sans bathing suits I suspect that you really don't want to see that either!Smile, Wink & GrinLaughLaughEmbarrassed

OK, deliver to the front door - no problem, but if you miss your target then I might have to borrow Jabear's shotgun.

Why do I feel more like a fossil every day? Don't answer - stupid question. Being senile and unaware of my surroundings seems to get more attractive every day!LaughLaughLaugh

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 2, 2014 3:53 AM

CTValley - just to stand correct - the first powered flight was done in 1901 by a man called Gustav Weisskopf, who only now finds recognition for that. A month before Wilbur and Orville Wright took to the skies, a man called Karl Jatho made the second powered flight near Hannover Germany.

Reference:

Gustav Weisskopf

Karl Jatho

 

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Posted by Dusty Solo on Thursday, October 2, 2014 3:01 AM

BATMAN

The statement was meant in a light hearted way and was not meant to start a peeing match. SincesmileyCanadian ydon't want what I posted to be the causecan take the word "us" as me referring to Canada if that will get your back down.

 

Oh dear. Contrary to your perception of what I wrote, BATMAN, I was in fact having a little fun with you -  that was my intention anyway.

I'm pretty sure that I'm not so overly sensitive an individual - certainly not so much as to be agreived  by the word, "always" Maybe I should have used a smiley face like this oneSmile to show that I was not spitting venom.

Man, I really need to watch what I say around here, eh.

I would be very dissapointed if what I posted was the cause of a cross border fracas. Btw,, what is a "peeing contest"? A new Olympic demonstration sport perhaps?[Whistling

Dusty

 

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Posted by CTValleyRR on Wednesday, October 1, 2014 9:12 PM

Kyle

 

 
Dusty Solo

"Always" ahead of us, BATMAN?

Dusty

 

 

 

If we want to discuss this, let's look back in history.

The US had the first:

  • Assembly lines, and first mass produced car Ford Model T
  • First airplane
  • First jumbo aircraft 747 (which a lot lasted the British/French Concord)
  • First and ONLY 5th generation fighter jet (F22 Raptor)
  • A whole lot more 
 

As an American, I always get annoyed when my fellow citizens can't take some good natured ribbing.  I'm proud to be American, but not so proud that it makes me blind. We have our failings, not the least of which is not to give credit where credit is due.

We invented neither the automobile nor the assembly line.  They were invented by a German and an Englishman.

The Wright Brothers did indeed make the first powered, heavier than air flight.  But they didn't invent the airplane, and in fact were a couple of johhny come latelies to the race to make the first powered flight.

Since the 747 is about 10 times as lage as the Concorde and not supersonic, this is an apples and oranges comparison.

Yes, we were the first to produce a fifth generation fighter... at a cost so high tbat we can only afford about 100 of them, and have already ceased production.  Yeah, let's pat ourselves on the back for that one.

And there are good examples out there.  But to insist on primacy in everything is ridiculous.

And before you foamer patriots jump all over that concept, this thread isn't the place for this discussion.

Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford

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Posted by CTValleyRR on Wednesday, October 1, 2014 8:54 PM

Kyle

 

 
 
On a slightly more serious note with very similar technology already available to all off the shelf, I can see any regulatory moves opening a big can of worms.
Perhaps I should trade in the shot gun for one of these..........
 

 

 

Or a SeaWiz.

On second thought, the SeaWiz is a whole lot better (and I mean a lot) than those Pom-Pom guns.

 

Obviously, your familiarity to this weapon is only through the mass media.  There is a very active debate as to whether the acronym CWIS (spoken "See-whiz") stands for "Christ, It Won't Shoot" or "Casualty-Intensive Weapons System".

Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford

"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford

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Posted by BATMAN on Wednesday, October 1, 2014 6:56 PM

The statement was meant in a light hearted way and was not meant to start a peeing match. Since I am Canadian you can take the word "us" as me referring to Canada if that will get your back down.Wink

Brent

"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."

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Posted by Kyle on Wednesday, October 1, 2014 6:23 PM

Dusty Solo

"Always" ahead of us, BATMAN?

Dusty

 

If we want to discuss this, let's look back in history.

The US had the first:

  • Assembly lines, and first mass produced car Ford Model T
  • First airplane
  • First jumbo aircraft 747 (which a lot lasted the British/French Concord)
  • First and ONLY 5th generation fighter jet (F22 Raptor)
  • A whole lot more 
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Posted by Dusty Solo on Wednesday, October 1, 2014 4:35 PM

"Always" ahead of us, BATMAN?

Dusty

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Posted by BATMAN on Wednesday, October 1, 2014 3:32 PM

Kyle
As technology like this increases, it seems more and more like the story 1984

My wife's cell phone has the tracker app thingy on. I borrowed her phone a while back and while I was out it rang. When I answered she said "I see you are at Pacific Western Rail, can you go back to Safeway and get a bag of potatoes?".

I won't be borrowing her phone anymore.Laugh

Brent

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Posted by Kyle on Wednesday, October 1, 2014 3:19 PM

carl425

 

 
-E-C-Mills
So what would be the counter measure? Paint balls? Rubber bullets? A goup gun?

 

That's an easy one. Video Cameras sending a live feed back to headquarters.

 

Then you are going to have a bunch of people protesting (probably wearing mask) against your drones.  Too many people will object to cameras that can recognize faces.  As technology like this increases, it seems more and more like the story 1984

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Posted by BATMAN on Wednesday, October 1, 2014 2:33 PM

I worked for the Canadian Federal Government in logistics for 36 years. I dealt with every courier company, Canada Post and the U.S. postal service and other postal and courier companies around the world. Planes, trains, trucks and ships. I also worked with Customs agencies of a lot of countries. I have had many long private meetings with Senators that were conducting regular Senate reviews of the industry, that wanted my opinion on many issues. Though I was a blue collar guy, I worked on many projects in a managerial position. The formulas used in the pick up and delivery end of the business are complex to say the least. I could write hundreds if not thousands of pages on it, if ask to do a full report.

To over simplifly the equation, any area where a driver can not deliver at least 20 items an hour is likely a money loser and would be a candidate for drone delivery. Of course not every item would be light or small enough for drone delivery and there are multitudes of other factors to consider in the equation. However if the formula is right, a drone should work. Why would the courier industry spend millions on drone developement if it didn't think it would work.

Once refined, the number of drones launched per worker will be quite high. One system I read about, had the drones going along a conveyor belt being packed by an employee and then launched after it would egress the building. It would go to target and return without further interface with a person. At least I think that is what it said.Laugh

As far as air reg's go. As long as a drone stayed below 600 feet, it should not be an issue with ATC. And of course it would have to stay away from any controlled airspace below 600 feet around airports.

Canada Post just opened the most advanced automated proccessing plant in the world this year. It is at Vancouver International Airport. I am hoping to get an invite for a tour as I am always fascinated by automation. Having spent lots of time in Fedex, UPS and other courier companies facilities over the years, I have always been amazed at the amount of product that gets moved around the world on a daily basis.

Here are some photo's of Canada Post new processing plant. Note the lack of workers. When I started going in to Canada Post facilities all those years ago, there would be hundreds of people moving all this stuff by hand. Now totally automated.

http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2014/09/canada-post-opens-new-200-million-processing-centre-yvr-airport-photos/

I really miss my job, it was the best. Getting old sucks.

 

 

Brent

"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."

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