NeO6874 cmrproducts While storing the paper versions of the magazines takes up lots of room - I much prefer to have them as I will have them (barring Fires - in which case would also take out any stored electronic articles) almost forever. BUT - having the content on line - is so unreliable - as we all know the Magazine industry is not what it used to be and RMC mag gone for now - is a fine example - if all of the content was online - it too would be gone in an instant. YET - I have all of the OLD RMCs in my train room. (more examples) Definitely! Kalmbach (et. al.) are completely entitled to enforcing their copyrights -- but it's be really nice if the decision makers for this thing make it permissive enough to allow us some degree of freedom with things so that we don't lose out in the event that "bad things" happen in the future (bean counters deem it not profitable, Kalmbach is swallowed by another house whose beancounters deem it not profitable, Kalmbach closes [magazines] down, etc.)
cmrproducts While storing the paper versions of the magazines takes up lots of room - I much prefer to have them as I will have them (barring Fires - in which case would also take out any stored electronic articles) almost forever. BUT - having the content on line - is so unreliable - as we all know the Magazine industry is not what it used to be and RMC mag gone for now - is a fine example - if all of the content was online - it too would be gone in an instant. YET - I have all of the OLD RMCs in my train room. (more examples)
While storing the paper versions of the magazines takes up lots of room - I much prefer to have them as I will have them (barring Fires - in which case would also take out any stored electronic articles) almost forever.
BUT - having the content on line - is so unreliable - as we all know the Magazine industry is not what it used to be and RMC mag gone for now - is a fine example - if all of the content was online - it too would be gone in an instant. YET - I have all of the OLD RMCs in my train room.
(more examples)
Definitely!
Kalmbach (et. al.) are completely entitled to enforcing their copyrights -- but it's be really nice if the decision makers for this thing make it permissive enough to allow us some degree of freedom with things so that we don't lose out in the event that "bad things" happen in the future (bean counters deem it not profitable, Kalmbach is swallowed by another house whose beancounters deem it not profitable, Kalmbach closes [magazines] down, etc.)
One thing I did not state before is -
Once I have the PAPER veriosn of the magazines - I can give it to anyone I choose and they can then copy the articles they so choose as it is stated in the magazines that copies can be made for that persons use!
They can't really stop this use of the magazines (as long as the person making the copies DOES NOT sell the copies and ONLY uses them for personal use)
BUT nothing can be done if that person then passes the Magazine on to Yet another person and they then do the same thing (just as I get extra copies of the Magazines donated to our Club Library and the membership is free to use/read the magazines articles as they see fit.
Having the digital content and able to down load a copy - ONLY allowes YOU the origianl purcherser to use the DOWN LOAD.
This is what everyone is hoping to accomplish by going to Digital Content only - now they have a leg to stand on if someone make a copy of the Digital info and gives it to another perosn. Now thay are liable for copywrite problems.
Funny how they are not able to control the Magazine content once it is printed but want to control the Digital format!
Most everyone missed that part of the plan!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
The loss of Digital contact with previously paid for content once one quits spending money to keep the subscription going is what everyone is hoping!
Just as some on here have stated many times - THEY only keep relitive articles they CUT from the magazine.
What happens when they decide to change ERAs or Railroads etc?
All of that paper is NOW worthless to them and they now have to go searching for that NEW info about what ever new project they will now be working on.
I have Bookmarked many web places that had great into on many subjects and I have went back to them years later - ONLY to find they are gone as well as the content I wanted/needed.
SO - WHAT Good did it do me to EXPECT that the info would always be there to reference to?
This Forun could dissappear tomorrow (Just as the old ALTAS forum did) and no one could stop it!
Just as others had suggested any digital on line information can also dissappear as I have stated above!
If I am spending MY money on information - I WANT it in MY possession - NOT RELYING on someone that I can't control!
YMMV
Many, many of us are at or near retirement. That's just demographics, but along with that comes the economics of that demographic. Retired people, in general, don't have as much to spend as those with jobs.
So, what's to happen to those of us who want to cut back on unnecessary expenditures? If I buy a subscription to the paper magazine, I've got that magazine and its contents for as long as I want to keep it. But, if my subscription is digital, if I stop paying the continuing fees, I lose access not only to new content, but to the older content that I'd already payed for, right?
I can go to the public library and read the latest MR, on paper, sitting in a comfy chair off by myself. Will my library subscribe to the digital edition? I'm guessing no, at least not for a while. Libraries have budget constraints, too.
I'm fine with digital content, as long as it's an add-on and not a replacement for the old fashioned magazine.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Neil,
I appreciate the logistical nightmare that comes with trying to protect your copyright in the digital age. I get there are no easy answers, and that you will not be able to please everyone.
That being said, two things cause me concern on a personal level. One, I have already bought into both digital MR and MR Video Plus until March/April 2016. How will that factor in to my cost for All-Access? Two, the ability to download for offline reading is almost a necessity. Coverage dropouts, server issues/downtime, and anything else Mr Murphy can think of really has me concerned that I will not have the same sense of security that comes from knowing I have archived my own copies.
None of these questions, however, will be answered by a splash ad. I will therefore wait for the formal announcement, and hope my concerns are unfounded.
Chris Ballinger
Modeling the Clementon Branch of the Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines in HO scale
Oh my goodness - this technical talk is beyond this old geazer also.
But in any event, I think I would find it useful if MRR was made available on DVD or downloadable online access in ten year blocks -maybe even five or an annual.
But I don't have a publishing business to run & a need to generate profits & a dividend for the shareholders. So much that may suit me in this discussion my not generate maximum profits utilizing existing assets such magazine content that has returned a profit n the format it was originaly published.in.
Dusty
The Apollo footage wasn't lost to format obsolescence. They were lost because they were inadvertantly recorded over back in the days when recording over made more sense than new tapes because tapes were expensive, even for NASA.
Bayfield Transfer Railway The problem is, the MR DVDs include proprietary software necessary to view them; they aren't simply a PDF collection. There is absolutely NO guarantee that later operating systems will run that software. I really don't want to have to keep a Win7 computer around 25 years from now just to view my MR DVDs.
NASA has Apollo moon pictures they can't retrive as the system in use at that time went bye-bye before they could access them. Typical Gov'ment! I once told a camera store owner I still prefered 35 mm film cameras for some uses. He said"why is that?" I replied " I've never seen a negative crash." He said "Good point"
God's Best & Happy Rails to You!
Bing (RIPRR The Route of the Buzzards)
The future: Dead Rail Society
Neil B. Hi guys, Before you go too far down the path of unlocking PDFs, the DVD set was intentionally locked to prevent users from sharing free copies of old issues with 10,000 of their best friends via the internet. How would you feel if you had bought the DVD set, only to later see all of it posted on someone's personal website for free? Sincerely, Neil B. editor
Hi guys,
Before you go too far down the path of unlocking PDFs, the DVD set was intentionally locked to prevent users from sharing free copies of old issues with 10,000 of their best friends via the internet.
How would you feel if you had bought the DVD set, only to later see all of it posted on someone's personal website for free?
Sincerely,
Neil B.
editor
As both a former software engineer and someone who has written for money, I have NO problems with MR protecting its intellectual property rights!
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Thing is, there's a middle ground between "Here's PDFs of every article, ever" and "you can look, but do nothing else!".
And with the DVD (which I unfortunately couldn't afford), it sounds like you took a middle-ground approach that could be done away with (relatively) easily -- "Hey MR Readers -- the 75th anniv. edition doesn't work on the new Windows Mega Edition, and the company that made the index/viewer has gone out of business ... you can still read the articles by following these steps ..."
Way I see it -- if whatever approach you take grants me reasonable rights to the materials purchased (however you do it), then I'm probably on board ... but, if your stance is "you can read online, using this awful viewer, no saving, no printing, no nothing", then I'm staying far away...
Not trying to unlock it, just pointing out that while the 'front end' and search might be proprietary, the actual content is not stored in any special proprietary format that is in danger of becoming unreadable any time in the near future. The PDF format is pretty much here to stay. It is constantly being added to, but the oldest PDF files still open with current readers.
The issue of protecting or not protecting is best left for off this forum. Different ebook publishers all have their own opinions.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Neil Besougloff
editor, Model Railroader magazine
Bayfield Transfer Railway NeO6874 Once it's in your hands, a DVD (or other physical media, for that matter) will pretty much "always work", and is not subject to the whims of a publishing company who may deem an internet-facing archive is "too expensive" to continue to maintain. The problem is, the MR DVDs include proprietary software necessary to view them; they aren't simply a PDF collection. There is absolutely NO guarantee that later operating systems will run that software. I really don't want to have to keep a Win7 computer around 25 years from now just to view my MR DVDs.
NeO6874 Once it's in your hands, a DVD (or other physical media, for that matter) will pretty much "always work", and is not subject to the whims of a publishing company who may deem an internet-facing archive is "too expensive" to continue to maintain.
Once it's in your hands, a DVD (or other physical media, for that matter) will pretty much "always work", and is not subject to the whims of a publishing company who may deem an internet-facing archive is "too expensive" to continue to maintain.
The problem is, the MR DVDs include proprietary software necessary to view them; they aren't simply a PDF collection. There is absolutely NO guarantee that later operating systems will run that software. I really don't want to have to keep a Win7 computer around 25 years from now just to view my MR DVDs.
Nope - the only thing 'proprietary' in the MR collection is the password used internally. The viewer software is Adobe, each individual page of each issue is a standard PDF file, except it's password protectect - if you have full Adobe Acrobat you too can make PDFs with a password. You can at present print entire issues, using a PDF print driver, to PDFs that can be read anywhere you can get a PDF reader client - I've printed several construction articles to load on my iPad, for example.
All that is needed to read the issues on the 75 year collection is the password to the PDF files, in which case they could be opened in any PDF reader that supports Adobe's security option. You can try it - just find the files on your hard disk and try to open them with say Adobe Reader. It will ask you for a password. If you knew that password, they would open up. Without launching the index and display program that Kalmbach put on the DVD.
jerryl Soo Line fan Just curious at what price point you guy's would be willing to pay for "all access" Depends on what format..might not even be interested if it's all online.
Soo Line fan Just curious at what price point you guy's would be willing to pay for "all access"
Just curious at what price point you guy's would be willing to pay for "all access"
Depends on what format..might not even be interested if it's all online.
^ This, pretty much.
If it's all online (and any type of DRM), I wouldn't use it.
If it's all online (but, "download the PDF, and then it's yours to do as you please*"), then I would consider it. Bonus would be if they were super cheap ($0.99 per, even better would be a free** page of text*** preview). Alternatively, if it was something like $50 (or whatever) for the first 80 years "pack" (issue 1 - Dec 2014), and then a cheap (sub $5) optional addon to your recurring subscription, I'd be OK with that too.
If it's a DVD/Blu-ray again, I'd pay $50-60 or so (especially if it's "PDF and do as you please") ... bonus if they would reduce the price a bit for shipping back your 75th anniv. disc (or offer a 5 year booster DVD for cheap) for those people who have the 75th disc.
* within reason (i.e. "personal use only").
** "free" could just be a "freebie addon" for subscribers
*** "first page of text" being the first page of the article that has text beyond the article title (e.g. layout tours that do the full-page pic would show page 2 of n instead of just the pic and title).
Jim
I think it's been that way forever -- the only places (in my experience) where public/general use data is retained "long term" is libraries and (possibly) the creator of that data in the first place.
As an old geezer, it seems to me that the more advanced The tech. world gets, the more temporary it is. How many can extract info. from a floppy disk or play tapes ( 8 track, reel to reel, cassett or even VHS.) or look at a lazer disk? All of these were the best thing since sliced bread. With all the changes in software, plug ons, formats, servers etc, it seems to me the only way you can be sure you can access information from a magazine from the 90s is to keep the magazine.
chutton01 NeO6874 Not entirely sure what you're getting at with that. It's a website that's like four years old ... and seems extremely broken. What I was getting at is that Trainlife was more or less serving as an archive of various out-of-print magazines (perhaps of questionable legality, but you wouldn't find active magazines like Model Railroader or the once and future Rail Model Craftsman on that site). Actually very useful, and people certainly used it (you can find mentions of it in various thread on this and other forums). Then, the images went away early this year - since the images were the archives of the magazines, that pretty much ended the usefulness of the site. Not much info out there why, although some posts stated the owners of the site knew about it but couldn't afford to have it working properly.The moral of this story is that online archives are great for back-ups, but don't depend on them always being there, and I was simply providing an example of a real-life situation.
NeO6874 Not entirely sure what you're getting at with that. It's a website that's like four years old ... and seems extremely broken.
What I was getting at is that Trainlife was more or less serving as an archive of various out-of-print magazines (perhaps of questionable legality, but you wouldn't find active magazines like Model Railroader or the once and future Rail Model Craftsman on that site). Actually very useful, and people certainly used it (you can find mentions of it in various thread on this and other forums). Then, the images went away early this year - since the images were the archives of the magazines, that pretty much ended the usefulness of the site. Not much info out there why, although some posts stated the owners of the site knew about it but couldn't afford to have it working properly.The moral of this story is that online archives are great for back-ups, but don't depend on them always being there, and I was simply providing an example of a real-life situation.
Ah -- I misinterpreted what you were posting as "nope, you're wrong mate -- see, this site is proof that internet archives are a good thing(tm)"
Thing is, the data is still squirreled away on the disc (i.e. "in our hands"). Given enough desire (and know-how), said digital restrictions can be removed.
TBH, I'm appalled that they're requiring 3rd party applications (other than Adobe Reader) in the first place.
NeO6874Not entirely sure what you're getting at with that. It's a website that's like four years old ... and seems extremely broken.
chutton01 NeO6874 With the archives being online, their future depends solely on whether or not Kalmbach wants to keep the servers up. As a demo...eh, might as well say it junior high fashion <cough>Trainlife<cough>
NeO6874 With the archives being online, their future depends solely on whether or not Kalmbach wants to keep the servers up.
As a demo...eh, might as well say it junior high fashion <cough>Trainlife<cough>
Not entirely sure what you're getting at with that. It's a website that's like four years old ... and seems extremely broken.
The articles contained therein are only accessable to "joe public" so long as the maintainer(s) choose to keep the servers online (and domain registered) -- which is EXACTLY what I said in the quote that you decided to use.
rrinkerThe clound concept has its place. All of your data, with no offline copy, and all of your computing - that's not the place for it
I've been in the data storage and protection business for 40 years, so as you may expect, I also have an opinion on the cloud.
The major players in cloud storage offer options for maintaining copies of your data in multiple data centers across the country from each other. Most of the others at least do backups for you (probably more frequently than you do) so the data can be recovered in the event of a system failure.
The big problem with the cloud in my opinion is that many business are subject to severe fines if private data is leaked. HIPPA is the primary example of such regulations. No cloud provider has yet agreed to accept responsibility for data leaks. So if all your data "rains out of the cloud", regardless who is at fault, you are the one screwed.
The other issue is cost. An honest evaulation, when you take into account the usage patterns and responsiveness required, will show that local storage is the most cost effective option. So far, that is the conclusion that most of my customers have arrived at.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Bayfield Transfer Railway I'm the contrary vote; I LIKE the idea of it being online.For one thing I've heard some fairly serious concerns from techies about the format the DVDs are in. In 20 years will the then-current operating systems be able to display those DVDs? If it's online, it's not my problem.
I'm the contrary vote; I LIKE the idea of it being online.For one thing I've heard some fairly serious concerns from techies about the format the DVDs are in. In 20 years will the then-current operating systems be able to display those DVDs?
If it's online, it's not my problem.
In 20 years, probably. That DVD or Bluray drive in your computer can still read CD's which is a format that is over 30 years old now.
I can't read my hardcopy issues from the 90's because my wife cleaned out the attic and threw them away. It's far easier to make technology "future proof" than it is to make it "wife proof".
Online is fine,. but there MUST also be a way to read off line. We do not yet live in a worlkd where an internet connection is available everywhere we might go., and even when it is, the ridiculous rates the cell phone providers charge for miniscule amounts of data traffic are out of control. We laugh at people paying more for a gallon of bottle water than a gallon of gas, but cellular data rates are like paying full carload rates to ship one tiny postcard.
That 75 year DVD will be readable as long as there is Adobe Acrobat or one of the many clones. Having everything tied up in ONE company's web site is much more precarious. Zinio seems to be fairly stable, but internet companies come and go. If Zinio folds, I can say goodbye to the past 2 years of MR Digital. This is NOT a good situation. The app does download the issues to my tablet, so I can read them with no internet connection, but it seems to periodically remove older ones that I haven't opened in a while, otherwise I would be perfectly ok, it's online, but it's also in my iPad and thus backed up to my computer (which is then backed up to my server, which has a cloud-based back....).
Long term, I think this trend to put everything on the cloud will reverse itself, as people come to realize it puts things out of their control - botht he good side of that, less management, but also the bad, as in no control and being at the merecy of someone else. Having been in the IT industry as long as I have, I've seen it all come and go. Many of those things we see today with fancy acronymns to attract the MBA degreed CIO types with limited technical knowledge are the sme old things we did 20 years ago, just with a slick sounding name. ALl marketing. I've seen things take off like ganbusters, the latest and greatest new fad, only to have it fase after a few years once people finally got a handle on just what they were giving up. The clound concept has its place. All of your data, with no offline copy, and all of your computing - that's not the place for it. COPIES - backups, etc - THAT'S a good use for offsite systems.
NeO6874With the archives being online, their future depends solely on whether or not Kalmbach wants to keep the servers up.
Counterpoint to this -- if you have a DVD (blu-ray, laserdisc, whatever) with the articles, they're yours, and while it might take some doing to dig into the disc and rip the magazines out for storage on a HDD or secondary (tertiary) optical media, you can do it (and then just transfer from old -> new PCs as time goes on).
With the archives being online, their future depends solely on whether or not Kalmbach wants to keep the servers up.
That said - I'm not opposed to it being online ... I just hope that if they go that route, I'll be allowed to print off or otherwise locally archive articles, so I can use them at my leisure.
Indeed. Some say they wish it had better quality - well, how much resolution do you think was in a low cost hobbyist published magazine 80 years ago? Also keep in mind that all the early years were in a smaller format than today's standard, so if you happen to have a fairly large size monitor, even without zooming in you are viewing the older issues in larger than life size. My 23" displays, I just checked - vertically it is exactly the same physical size as the modern magazine. Since it's widescreen, I could view a full page spread. Since I actually have two displays, I theoretically could view 4 pages at the same time.
I know, technology costs money - but 24" widescreen 1080p displays now cost less than most locos. And it beats peering at a tiny 15" CRT. No flicker, either, to tire your eyes.
But I'm with the others, I have the 75 year DVD, I don;t want to pay full price again to get the most recent 5 years, part of which I already have in electronic format thanks to a digital subscription. Also, an index is of secondary concern - there are a couple of online model railroad magazine index sites that have excellent searching capability, and as a bonus contain ALL publications, not just MR. You REALLY want to find an article you barely remember? Check one of them out, you'll find your article.
I hope that our friends at Kalmbach will do something so that those of us who shelled out the cash for the 75 years DVD don't find it to be money wasted when "all access" happens. I'd hate to see it included in something else I have to buy to get the missing issues.