richhotrain I went out to play golf today. Now, I have to work on my layout. Did you keep score or did you really just play? Rich
I went out to play golf today.
Now, I have to work on my layout.
Did you keep score or did you really just play?
Rich
Dean
30 years 1:1 Canadian Pacific.....now switching in HO
Model railroading may be unique in permitting a high degree of realitic operating simulation with scale models. Perhaps the key here is that the distinction between playing and operating is both individual and adjustable. Each modeller thus gets to "turn the dial" to the most enjoyable mix of play and prototypical operation. I am primarily a model builder, and actually running the trains is less important to me than building them. I can enjoy and appreciate operating a model railroad with varying degrees of prototypical realism and rigor and have done so, but it is not my first choice of ways to enjoy the hobby. Others see some degree of prototypical operation as essential. Curiously, I have seen photos of "operations oriented" model railroads with what seem to me to be unprototypical mixes of equipment types and eras, but it does not seem to bother the operators. I have also known of modelers who organize structured "operating nights" but also sometimes "just let the trains run". The answer thus varies between individuals, and perhaps also between moods in the same individual.
You might look into comparisons with the "mock" airline websites popular with Microsoft Flight Simulator fans. These sites allow Flight Simulator users to "operate" actual airline schedules and routes, report fuel use, log hours in the air, etc. just as professional pilots do.
richhotrain I went out to play golf today. Now, I have to work on my layout. Rich
In my family [three champion golfers and one non-player (moi)] golf is serious (and sometimes profitable) business.
OTOH, I consider construction and TTTO operation to be play - especially when I'm designing and assembling three-dimensional flights of fancy for the TTT.
'Run in circles, scream and shout,' (aka roundy-round puppydog tail-chase) is bo-o-o-ring, mostly because there isn't any real operation. I'm not interested in being a spectator when I can get my hot little hands on the controls. (And now you know why licensed pilots are unhappy airline passengers.)
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
My wife asked me why I wanted (and did buy) an ex Southern Pacific MOW crane truck. A real one! Rather than rationalize and make up excuses, I said, "It's a toy"
And she replied, "OK"... To my surprise, that was the end of the conversation. I think she just wanted to hear me admit it.
While it is VERY useful around the place for heavy lifting, I can't not smile sometimes when using it, even for serious work. If using a 1/1 piece of equipment for the entertainment value it provides is "play", how much more running scale equipment for the same reason is also.
BTW, I sold other toys (vehicles, motorcycle, a lame ol abused tractor, etc) to get it. No "domestic" funds were spent on it. Dan
Absolutely! I consider all of what I do with model railroading to be play; or, atleast a fun adult activity I'm involved with. I don't feel there is any shame in defining what I do as play, while others can certainly feel differently. I actually am not real involved with operations as I find it somewhat like jobs I had that I wasn't excited about (as I know of no other Model Rails in my area to operate/play with).
I think you will find the definition of "PLAY" defined in many different ways by the people coming here to participate at this forum.
I am retired now. However, the best jobs (work) I had were jobs that felt like play to me.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
this thread has made me wonder about "play". I think people play sports to exercise/demonstrate athletic skills. They enjoy the challenge and get satisfaction from successful execution (e.g. a nice hit, catch, tackle, point, ...). Just throwing a baseball back a forth requries some skill. Playing cards is challenging and requires skill.
as an engineer who has a lot of trouble shooting opportunities, i don't look forward to any further challenges when i leave work. i look forward to playful activities that I would describe as mindless, but it's a challenge in itself to just relax.
I think designing/building a model railroad is challenging. I think some modelers are attracted to operation of a railroad because of the challenge and the smooth and successful completion of an operating session. I wouldn't think running trains around a loop, or even randomly switching a few cars is operating a railroad, but it's not like playing a sport or cards either.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
I do believe it allows the release of the " Walter Mittey " in all of us. Rabbit, please put the boxcar in the front line----
herrinchoker
Alton Junction
Since it is a hobby, it is by definition a form of play.
Many forms of play use complex equipment, involve groups of people, have intricate rules or involve some sort of simulation, model railroading is no different.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
"Make believe" is the oldest form of play there is. Human children and immature animals do it by instinct. It is one of the tools nature uses to ensure life skills are passed on to future generations.
Whether you are operating your model layout "just like the prototype", acting in a predefined role as in stage acting, imagining yourself as the enginer / yardmaster / dispatcher, etc., you do it because you are satisfying this biological urge. It's play, no matter how you try to couch it in "socially acceptable" terms.
The younglings who just want to wreck their trains are also acting from a basic instinct, but a much less sophisticated one (why does a baby giggle when you make a funny face?). That's the learning urge -- the same reason you feel a glow of satisfaction when you find that irksome short on your layout.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
galaxyAny "hobby" is the adult acceptable form of "playing", and most often a form of "recreation". Notice the word "recreation"- it is RE and CREAT. And the second definition of "play" defines it as "recreation". Our train hobby really DOES have a "creation" component to it...even if just for scenery's sake.
Hobby of LION is model trains. What, I ask of myself then, are the most memorable aspects of this layout.
1) The construction of the Table
2) The laying of the tracks and third rail
3) Wiring, soldering and puttering.
None of that is "playing" but it does take me away from the daily grind of affairs. As a monk I live and work all in the same place. Time melds together so that work hours and other hours all flow together. If someone needs the infirmarian, I go and tend to them regardless of day or hour. If someone needs help with their computer, I usually tend to their needs right away, but I may tell them to bring their problem back to me in the morning, or to click on the "help desk' since I will not remember anything of what they asked a few minutes later. If comeone wants to order or buy wine, there I am.
So It is a delight to just go up to the train room and do as I will until the phone rings again. Maybe I spend hours just looking out of the window, perhapps it is sunny and gree, perhaps it is snowy and white. It is all the same to me. I jump around from one project to another, so somethimes a thing is not done at all. So be it. It is a relaxation just to step out of the day.
And if I turn the layout on, and just watch the trains go around and around, so be that too.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
All you need to know about the difference between play (including operation) and work can be found by reading chapter 2 of Mark Twain's "The Adventures of Tom Sawyer"
Andre
Perhaps "play-acting" would be the best term...pretending to be a 'real' railroader while running a train, picking up / dropping off cars, etc.??
Sir MadogSerious" model railroaders will never admit they are playing with trains, but operate them.
That's my thoughts even though I'm not all that serious.I prefer using operation over running or playing with trains.
Why?
Sounds better IMHO.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Oh I definitely PLAY with the trains. Whether it is just watch the trains go round 'n' round, or to "play" in a "more appropriate" "operations" format. No matter what I do from running trains, or building a kit, or creating scenery, it is all "FUN"..and "Play" is FUN!
I think most any hobby is being at "play".
The second definition in my Webster's New American Haritage dictionary defines "play" as : To engage in a form of recreation; and to handle or behave lightly or absentmindedly.
SOmeone mentioned "no monetary gain" from trains or hobbies, I assume as opposed to "work" which gets paid for-hopefully. Nay, it definitely is "no monetary GAIN", rather I contend it is "monetary DRAIN" as it costs money-sometimes a lot of it- just to have any hobby!
Any "hobby" is the adult acceptable form of "playing", and most often a form of "recreation". Notice the word "recreation"- it is RE and CREAT. And the second definition of "play" defines it as "recreation". Our train hobby really DOES have a "creation" component to it...even if just for scenery's sake.
The old saying {at least here in the USA} is "All work and no play makes Johnny a dull boy" is true. SO a hobby is a "play outlet" for any one of any age, but particularly for adults.
So, for me at least, I PLAY with Trains!!
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
Whether running my clubs layouts or my home layout I consider myself to be operating them. Building a train in a yard, running it on the main at scale speed, switching industries and breaking down the train back in the yard is operation. The youngsters we have in the club run their trains at top speed and have them tip over on curves, are playing with trains.
"Serious" model railroaders will never admit they are playing with trains, but operate them. I confess I am playing with them. When running a train on my layout, I put myself into the engineer´s seat, so for me, it is a kind of role play, just for the fun of it. Like many folks of my generation, I wanted to be an engineer as a young kid, commanding the iron horse, but life made me turn towards a different profession. In my "play" I am re-enacting this childhood dream.
The whole purpose of a hobby is to have fun. If you don't have fun, what's the point? What is fun for one person seems like too much work to another.
As George Bernard Shaw said, "We don't stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing."
BRAKIE "One should design their layout that gives the builder the best play value regardless if its based on operation or just running trains." As far as operations. IHMO Operations is closer to a stage play since a layout will have several actors (operators) during a operation sesson.
As far as operations. IHMO Operations is closer to a stage play since a layout will have several actors (operators) during a operation sesson.
This sound like Frank Ellison, Art of Model Railroading, who describes a model railroad as a stage, and who describes scheduling trains to unrealistically have meets at station to create drama -- entertainment.
I have forgotten which one of MR operations/layout design guru that said this (or similar words) but,recall the general gest since it made a lot of common sense- "One should design their layout that gives the builder the best play value regardless if its based on operation or just running trains."
Play has some negative conotations for the over acheiver.
Railroad of LIOIN is designed for OPERATIONS. We have ONE LION to operate 10 trains at once. Not easy. LION automated the railroad, LPP (Little Plastic People) operate the trains, and the LION opwerates the tower.
LION is still working on the railroad of him, and so the trains run automatically while him does wiring and scenery construction. LION has operations manual for the railroad, and a Train Register for the tower operator to log all arrivals and departures (Think of an OS log). The register does show all of the trains that are scheduled to run on the railroad in a 24 hour period.
While Railroad is Automated, it has a PAUSE button that will stop all trains, timers and clocks. I can run the railroad for a few hours, then pause it and come back at another time and continue exactly where I left off.
I have never actually started an operating session as described in the Register, but that will come to pass once everything is working the way I want it to work.
It is play in the sense that it produces no income. The term play implies to me at least that regardless of how much or how seriously you participate in the activity it produces no Economic gain.
Professional athletes do not play a game. That is their form of work. The fans watching them on the other hand are playing in the sense that watching the athletes work produces no economic gain to the fan.
Si yes operating a model railroad unless you are charging admission to watch or participate is play.
Joe Staten Island West
I consider OPERATIONS as a 3 demensional Interactive GAME!
Where the object of the Game is to place the Cars into the proper Industries and pull any cars ready to be shipped from the Industries in each town along the trains route.
With a typical board game - it is essentually a 2D flat board with little more than manually moved pieces.
With a Model Railroad - the scenery gives the 3D feel to the GAME and it also places the Operator into the Scene as they have to work out the puzzle of moving the cars into and out of the various sidings - all the while staying out of the way of Thru trains.
The ability of the Operators to be able to get the work done in an efficent fashion and doing so with the least moves provides the Operator with Mind stimulation (which we all need) and in having to work with others to keep the Layout and Railroad running as smoothly as possible.
While this is fun (thus PLAY Value) it is also the same as a Game as some will naturally fall into a bit of competitiveness to get their trains over the road quicker that others (while this isn't what the Owner may want - it happens nevertheless).
Often times the Layout Owner will place (into Play) things to slow down the speed of those that get into the competitiveness spirit by having most all of the Turnouts controlled by Manual Ground Throws or having a bit more complex trackage than what one would find in a real world situation.
This - for some - increases the Play Value - others it is source of fustration - and the Layout Owner needs to balance these situations carefully so that everyone will not be slowed down so much that to finish ones JOB requires work or induces STRESS into the PLAY Value.
For some - Having to read Car Cards in moving the Cars into industries is far more stressful than using a Switch List or even the simple Colored Tacks on cars (which eliminates any reading of the Car Cards or even the Car numbers on the Rolling Stock).
Again - Is it the wishes of the Layout Owner to make things complicated for the Operstors (just because the Layout Owner thinks Car Cards are neat) or in keeping the Operators happy - having fun - and keep them coming back session after session.
The Layout Owner needs to consider this if they ever hope to keep an Operating Crew coming to each of his OPs Sessions because once the Crew sees NO PLAY VALUE - they won't be back - or at the very least won't do much more than stand around session after session and just BS instead of running trains (as this provides more mind stumlation than running the trains) and less stress (work)!
I have seen this happen too many times and the Layout Owner has to begin recruiting new Operators as his regular crew's size keeps dwindling away.
Play Value is up to the Layout Owner!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
An non-waybill operating session on the Pacific Southern is simple and often entertaining.
It is less sophisticated than what i've read about operating sessions on other model railroads where trains oders might be issued during the sesson to handle delays. Instead, engineers pick up cards from a dispatcher indicating a train to run from an origin to a destination with station stops if a passenger train. Engineers must follow signals.
things become entertaining as engineers squeeze past one abother through crowded aisles and walking from one end of tunnel to another corner of the basement where the train is expected to come. Things get lively when there ar derailments and someone finds out that they've lost half their train. Some are 80 cars long. Sometimes they get stuck in a tunnel and then its like playing hide a seek. Everyone usually gets involved to sort things out and get trains rolling again.
The Pacific Souther has been in operation for nearly half a century in the basement of a private home. A founding member bought the home when the orignal owner passed away. It is a large layout with a PC able to control most turnouts and mainline signals.
Not taking things too seriously seems to work and keeps members interested. I think its a tribute to the core member who keep things fun.
I think operating a model railroad in a prototypical fashion, or at least in a disciplined and orderly fashion even if not precisely like a prototype railroad would do it, is a form of "play" -- perhaps depending on how one defines the word "play." I think many modelers who are serious about operations resist the notion that it is "play" because the word play often means a sort of casual, anything-goes, tra-la-la attitude, and has additional connotations of childishness that model railroaders have worked hard to refute about the hobby. "Play" becomes a loaded term and thus is resisted.
But people "play" card games in a serious, one could say even literally deadly serious (cheating at poker in the Wild West), manner. Ditto for "playing" golf or tennis. The level of seriousness about that kind of play does not necessarily track whether the person playing is a professional at it or not, either, and indeed amateur golfers seem more hot-headed than their professional counterparts.
Professionals "play" sports and children "play" house. Playing bridge or chess and splashing in a pool are both forms of "play" which demonstrates perhaps that it is not a useful word for this sort of analysis because it means just about any form of activity, even for-profit activity, and "play" does not necessarily even mean there are rules for that play. The common thread to all activities that can be called "play" it would seem is that it isn't a necessity of life, although some golfers might argue the point. Young animals engage in "play" that is often quite crucial to their survival.
Operating sessions are "play" in the sense that no real persons or real items of value are being transported for profit from place A to place B. You are pretending that they are. You are playing a sort of game, and the degree of pleasure in that game often depends on everyone playing by the same rules. There has to be at least some minimal level of agreement of what is acceptable in an operating session group for it to be much fun. And interestingly, the same person can attend an all-strict operating session and then a much more casual operating session and have fun at both -- it is trying to mix the two at the same operating session that is likely fun for nobody.
So I say yes it is play, it is a form of play that has rules of a sort, that the sets of rules vary widely for any given group playing by those rules, and that the fun involved can depend on a given group playing generally by the same set of rules.
And oh yes. In my experience, in this form of play the layout always wins.
Dave Nelson
Hi there, I am wondering,
Do you feel you are at ‘play’/can be ‘playful’ whilst operating (prototypically, or thereabouts a model railway). Essentially, are there any differences between play and operate to you, and whether essentially play might not be part of operate for you? I ask in the context of trying to write a piece conceptualising play in the model railway hobby.
Help much appreciated
Best
Rob MacKinnon
Academic Tutor/PhD Cand. Aber Uni, UK.
---------------------------------
I am undertaking a UK academic research project that partly explores the hobby of model railways. I am based in the UK and I am actually interviewing UK-based railway modellers but am posting questions on forums like this so as to get some more ideas, besides actually looking through previous forum threads for any interesting stuff. You are very very welcome to enquire more about the research project from me where I can give you some more info and most welcome to PM me if you want to discuss issues not on public forums. I can be contacted at rjm11@aber.ac.uk and have a website or two, just type 'Robert MacKinnon Aberystwyth' into Google. On a side note I have done some railway modelling in the past and actually doing the project has enthused me to take it up again!