Mike echo's my thoughts on this. In HOn3 it was and still is pretty much brass only for motive power especially for odd roads as even brass never concentrated on the narrow gauge. Often only one single run of a specific non-D&RGW brass loco ever saw the light of day. Narrow gauge motive power has always been a specialized endeavor....A brass endevor.
As of today, Blackstone has only offered two variants on N.G. locos and these were common D&RGW favorites made several times in brass. They are smart to do that as the market won't absorb many copies of an HOn3, 1880's, South Park & Pacific, "cold water" Brooks, mogul even if it is a sweet runner with DCC and sound.
I think that N.G. K-28 conversion I did will be the last used brass I buy. I'm glad I chose to do a freelance road that can run old leased or scraped and restored D&RGW locos.
A Brass Expo! Well, I'll eat a Mars bar! The last gasp for brass that will never run on a layout unless the buyer earns 6 figures, plus! I can't believe they are actually still just collected and never painted or run. Blows a true MR's mind.
I guess if you have the money..............
Richard
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
rrebellJust saw some k-27 HOn3 engines go on e-bay for about $250
Yes, it's been a soft market for the Baby Ks since the Blackstone's hit the street a few years back. No one knew what a home run those would be, so folks held their brass until that became clear, then everyone hit the market at about the same time.
I suspect the effect won't be as dramatic with the K-28 and K-36 when Blackstone brings them to market later on next year. Many of the owners of those who run their brass have already been converted to DCC or DCC/sound in the intervening near-decade since. Mine are anyway, as the arrival of the Blackstone K-27 also prompted my conversion to DCC.
Blackstone is a known and respected brand now. I suspect those with large stables of these locos anticipating a conversion to Blackstones have been "thinning the herd" since the K-28 and K-36 were announced, so not as great an effect of everyone rushing the doors. And the economy isn't where it was when the K-27 hit the street, so most purchasers are likely to not be as insensitive to absorbing losses on the sale of brass amid the costs of buying new Blackstone.
The experience of pricing with K-27 brass is another reminder that the narrowgauge brass market is a bit different than the rest of the brass market. Yes, there are still collectors, but there's a much higher percentage of narrowgauge brass on the rails and in service than is the case with standard gauge brass, simply because it's the primary source of motive power on many narrowgauge layouts. Thus when an innovation like a HOn3 loco with excellent running characteristics RTR right outta the box comes along, it's a game-changer.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Just saw some k-27 HOn3 engines go on e-bay for about $250, pretty cheap compaired to the old prices for PFM's!
narrow gauge nuclearnarrow gauge nuclear wrote the following post 12 days ago: I think an all brass show has about as much possibility of being organized as our sending a man to Mars in the next 5 years!
Okay, all you guys that need to have touchy-feely before you buy brass, it looks like a "Brass Expo" is being planned for April 2015. So save your dollars and get ready to put your wallets where your opinions are.
http://brassexpo.com/
Guess they'll need to highball that Mars landing.
narrow gauge nuclearIn retrospect, I wish I have picked it up now and struggled with it as it was only $275.00 and no one will ever make it again.
It will probably still be there at that same table come the October show.
I'll second Bill's comments on Timonium and brass dealer's dwindling at that very large show. I came within inches of buying a little brass N.G. C&S loco last time there. It was so tiny, I quickly caught myself as I imagined trying to shoehorn in a new motor, gearing and the Tsunami decoder/sound system.
In retrospect, I wish I have picked it up now and struggled with it as it was only $275.00 and no one will ever make it again. Oh well.......
Howard, this won't be anything that you don't already know, but I'll chime in anyway. For quite a few years, the Timonium show has been my primary source of model RR items (along with visits to folks like MB Klein while there in Balmer to go to the train show). The big Timonium show used to have multiple brass dealers, and some of them were extensive. Over the years, the number of brass dealers and the overall number of brass items for sale at this show has declined rather dramatically. There are only a couple true "brass dealers" there now, although brass items can show up at multiple tables.
If the market or interest on brass items is such that demand is down and those brass dealers no longer see fit to come to one of the biggest model train shows in the nation, then it is doubtful if there would be enough interest and participation to justify a brass show.
(And yes, I did buy another brass item within the past two months.... via Internet. And was satisfied...)
Bill
I hope this is not regarded as hopelessly OT but remember those mind-bending Bill Schopp articles in RMC where he regarded brass engines as just so many collections of parts to be reassembled into new and never offered models? His articles would say that you'd take the cab from this PFM Western Pacific 2-8-2 and the sand dome from a Gem cab forward, solder them onto the boiler from an Akane Erie Pacific and so on and so on. His workmanship was very good and the articles made for interesting reading but he might have been the only person in American who had the parts boxes to actually create what his articles were all about. Yet they were in nearly every issue in the late 60s.
I imagine some collectors read those articles and weep. Even then Schopp would admit that his articles generated angry letters to RMC. But they did give guys the courage to correct errors on brass by bringing out the soldering irons. I remember a friend of mine correcting the errors of dome placement on a Milwaukee Road 4-8-4 and how nervous he was at first. If nothing else the Bill Schopp articles gave good advice about how to take a soldering iron to a brass locomotive and not have the whole thing just become a mess of loose parts. I followed his advice when correcting a poorly placed pilot on a NWSL 4-4-2.
The story above about finding an old brass engine in a hobby shop mated to a wrong tender made me think of those articles.
Dave Nelson
My experience of brass locos is limited to a HOn3 brass WMC D&RGW T-12 I bought over 40 years ago. Nice to look at with its plenty of detail (compared to my usual fare of Marklin locos at that time), it had been a bad performer right out of the box. After painting and lettering it, I packed it away in disgust. It remained in the box for 40 years, almost forgotten. Only recently I rescued it from its grave. After a lot of tinkering and tweaking, it is now performing much better, although still miles away from what the Blackstone locos offer. To reach that kind of performance, I´d have to change the gears, install a new can motor with flywheel, and add a DCC sound decoder - the cost of this running up to about $ 300. That´s dangerously close to the price of a Blackstone loco!
I have to admit there is something to brass locos, which is beyond explanation. Maybe it is the solid feel, that only brass locos have. I´d love to get my hands on a brass C-16 or C-18, but only if I could have it for dead cheap, as reworking it is a costly affair. There is no way I´d pay double or triple price, just to have a brass loco.
Brass locos had their time, when labor was cheap in Japan, later Korea. With wages even in China being on the rise, there won´t be much future for hand-made brass engines, unless they are offered in kits, like in the UK.
Although I like brass locomotive models very much. I have only one remaining after selling of four others I bought on an impulse because they looked so nice. After a year or two I came to my senses & over a period sold them. It became difficult to justify keeping them especially so because only one - the model I still have - is specific to the road I model. Brass is such a beautiful material anyway. Its warm, easy to work witb & looks so darn nice.
But resurecting brass only sales venues may not be so succesful as they once were. There have been many irreversable changes in our world generally & because of these we seem destined to constantly question the manner in which we have done things previously.
There must be huge costs associated with organizing & promoting an all brass event & on balance a would be promoter of such events must surely wonder if organising such an event is worth the considerable financial risk associated with putting on an all brass show. If apparently prices of brass models is falling then it would require the sale of more models than previously to make the same money as at the last all brass shows back in the early 2000's - that is prior to the tragic events of 9/11.I don't want to give the impression I know from experience what I am talking about, I'm just making assumptions & have formed an opinion based on what has been posted here already by modelers far more knowledgeable on the subject than myself. Thats my 2c worth anyway.
Dusty
I think an all brass show has about as much possibility of being organized as our sending a man to Mars in the next 5 years!
I say this for all the above reasons given. Brass is not dead, nor will it ever be, especially in the used market. I have noted that most of the older brass, at shows I've been to, can be had for about the price it sold for way back when, unless it is a very rare and very desirable piece.
In HOn3, my gauge, The brass is mostly pretty old stuff from the late 50's to the late 70's. As Mike noted, and I recently posted in the post on "how many still run brass", Blackstone, in HOn3, hit one outta' the ball park with two fine running die-cast offerings. They are planning two more new locos in a year or two. Unless you are doing narrow gauge at Silver Plume in the 1880's or Colorado Southern, Blackstone can supply far more for far less than brass.
Except for only a very few M.R.s, almost all steam locos are less expensive today and run much better than brass. Many are also more detailed than older brass.
E-bay or the internet is the place to go if you absolutely must have brass, for whatever reason. If you plan on running it, plan on what you pay at e-bay again, doubling the net price, to get it running like something made today with DCC and sound.
So again, no brass only shows, ever again. (unless a local 10 table affair.) Nothing national.
I've been on eBay since 2000 as both seller and buyer. My experiences have been mixed: As a seller when I added up listing fees, commision, then my time to photograph, write listing description, do computer magic, then spend time in wrapping and boxing, and sometimes taking it to PO, my costs were in the 25% range and often higher if model was of a lessor value. This is of course if I placed a value on my time. Many sellers do not and delude themselves into thinking they are making more.
As a buyer on eBay, I and every buyer is purchasing an expensive model in the blind. Many on-line sellers on this venue, although honest, just do not have the knowledge to accurately describe the model. Professional dealers do have this knowledge. An astute buyer can usually decipher from posted photos what the model is, but still there is a huge chance that problems may exist, Being well versed in brass and knowing current values rather well, I have been fairly lucky with my on-line purchases from auctions. I'd rate my buying on eBay at around 85% successful. Others I know....not so!
As a seller I once had to deal with a fellow who purchased a PFM Soo Line mountain that was in mint condition....then sent me his Soo Line mountain back claiming this was the one I had sent him. Of course it had problems and I immediately recognized that he was trying to pull a fast one. It gets better, but fortunately most folks I dealt with were honest. Then there the damges or claims of damage. After a few years of selling this way, I hung it up as to me it just was not worth the hassle. Purchsing in the flesh, even though the seller may not be a pro, still gives one the opportunity to test the model and examine it fairly well.....a most wise thing to do considering the amount of money you'll be shelling out.
The once very fine Brass Expo show in the east not only had professional dealers and importers, they also conducted clinics on various aspects of brass models. Then there were the parts dealers, repair professionals, and custom finishers. This will never be found on eBay. I also remember a huge consignment sales area and free appraisal service. A show again like this should be most welcome to anyone who is into brass or could be.
When I sell brass at a show, there seems always to be someone who will ask why this model is made of gold or gold plated. Or I must explain why my PFM Pennsy K4 is so much more expensive then the Bachmann K4 on the next table. Most of these folks are not stupid, just ignorant and I have found most eager to listen and learn. Brass is no longer mainstream, rarely advertised in model railroad publications, and is viewed by many as a rich man's cult. It is not and this can change.
Another seeingly damning factor is that most collectible brass is of steam prototypes. Each year we seem to distance ourselves more from steam modeling as newer and younger (steam challenged) folks enter the hobby and us older relics drop out. But......I have noticed several younger modelers building historical pikes along with extensive research. This is most encouraging!
HZ
I was at a very nice small hobby shop recently and saw just one old brass steam engine in the display case. It was in a P.F.M./United box and was labeled as a W.P. 2-8-2. Not a particularly rare piece, but a nice, desirable model nontheless. Upon closer inspection, it appeared that the tender was actually from a P.F.M./United C&NW 4-6-2. I think it was a consignment item. It isn't an engine that fits my plans, so I wouldn't have wanted to buy it anyway. The sales clerk didn't seem to know the tender wasn't original.
As I mentioned above, a lot of our younger friends don't have the steam exposure that would help them to know about such things as a tender swap. In my personal collection I have a few engines that have had their tenders replaced, details changed, etc. I try to document these changes and keep that info in the box with the engine, including my reasons for making the change. These reasons generally involve the actual history of the particular individual prototype loco. Many would say these changes decrease the value of the model. To be fair to any purchaser who may buy the model at my estate sale, I believe this info should be provided.
Many --- probably most --- models are sold without this info, and many potential purchasers don't know about some of these changes that would be apparent to a more experienced brass collector. The seller is not necessarily being dishonest because he may not know either. That's why I like Howard's suggestion that we should have a place where we can personally inspect these items before we buy them.
But I don't think we should delude ourselves into thinking the brass market is what it was, or that it ever will be again.
Tom
rrebellI still buy brass If I can get a real deal but a lot of it I just let go as some of the running quality, right out of the box of the new plastic is fantastic.
Another important point. Where recent plastic models exist with good performance, it definitely affects parts of the brass market, those who are operators. That's why the Blackstone K-27 had such a dramatic effect. People actually do run brass, particularly in the narrowgauge community, because that's pretty much where our motive power comes from. The Blackstone has a few issues, compared to brass, but where it hit a home run was performance. With the exception of Division Point (at about 3x the price) no brass models could even get close to the Blackstone's performance.
That said, keep in mind that most brass is of prototypes that will never have plastic models made to similarly affect its value. And even when it does happen, remember that many brass collectors only collect -- they don't run. Thus the issue of improved plastic loco performance mostly doesn't come up for them. They're buying stuff because it's brass, not because they need a loco that performs well.
ACYI guess a lot of folks would feel OK about buying brass models without the opportunity to inspect, and I'm sure most online sellers would be willing to stand behind what they sell. The problem is that there are some older brass models that suffered from inconsistency. You might get a good one, or you might get a bad one.
ACY's point relates to something else I was thinking of. What's really missing now is a consistent source of information about the brass market. In the past, there were mfg's and dealers ads, which provided some tracking for the buyer of prices. The Brown Book was useful, but even older than magazine info as soon as it came out.
Then there are the problems different models are known to have; the difference between what the factory put out and what is being sold after modification by owners, etc; and the fact that ebay completed listings go away after 90 days IIRC, so aren't too useful after that.
What the brass market needs is some sort of review/datapoint collection/database website, sorta like an Angie's List of Brass. Obviously, dealers may want to list stock on it, but I think the real meat might be consumers reporting purchases and experiences. Not sure on the technology/software/legality, but an archive of completed ebay auctions with sold prices could be a useful source of data. The key would be to compile as much input data as possible.
Then put it into a database that can pump out reported sales prices by mfg, importer, model, and date/run.
It would take someone who knows the market well, along with a tech-savvy team to make it work.
Some rare brass brings a pretty penny but a lot of brass brings less than it did, just ask anyone who has a narrow gauge K-27, I have seen those go for as little as $160 since Blackstone came out with their models. Lots of shays have gone way down in price too. Remember when people could get over $400 for a Katsumi 2 cylinder shay, not anymore. I still buy brass If I can get a real deal but a lot of it I just let go as some of the running quality, right out of the box of the new plastic is fantastic.
Tom, it comes down to risk, and how much risk for how much money one is willing to take buying a model you cannot run or touch prior to purchase. I have seen some sellers take a video and post it on youtube of more valuable models or ones that have been tuned/modified to show how it runs at point of sale. Of coarse you must still trust the seller will ship you that model and not another. Once again another risk. I mostly buy older diesels, Alco models, Hallmark and just got a Trains INC S2. But from working on and repowering older models, I have a stash of spare trucks, gears, wheelsets and NWSL upgrade gears to deal with any major issues it might have. I have a whole drawer of KMT open frame motors, all run but I repower with Mashima can motors. What I really really miss, are all the brass ads that used to be in the model magazines. I dont feel like taking the "net" with me everywhere I go. I still enjoy reading a paper magazine, but really miss all the ads I used to scour for models to buy. Mike
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
I guess a lot of folks would feel OK about buying brass models without the opportunity to inspect, and I'm sure most online sellers would be willing to stand behind what they sell. The problem is that there are some older brass models that suffered from inconsistency. You might get a good one, or you might get a bad one. In another thread, I mentioned a brass engine I bought, and later disciovered that a previous owner had tampered with the suspension, and not in a good way. I mentioned some of the things I look for when contemplating the purchase of an older brass locomotive. I arrived at these steps (or precautions, if you will) through a serries of hard-learned lessons. You just can't do this kind of examination through the ether, and when I plunk down a suignificant amount of money, I really want to inspect what I'm buying. So there is a real advantage to buying brass items the old fashioned way.
Howard ZaneAs of this writing there are over 13,500 listings of HO brass models on eBay......and many will be sold. Some of these models will fetch prices way over current guide figures. Major dealers such as Dan's Model Trains and others have very active web sites with huge inventories and a simple examination will show that much is being sold.
I believe that the above statement answers your own question. What is the incentive for a dealer to spend the time and expense (travel, motel, meals, and venue table cost) to attend a brass model show where he will probably attract more looky-loos than buyers with fat wallets? He can do the same thing from the comfort of his own home and reach many more individuals for the cost of a website and an e-mail account.
And what is the incentive for a buyer to spend a similar expense to travel to a show looking for the one item that in all probability won't be available at the show? He can do the same thing from his den and it costs him nothing.
Yes, I know there's the "I need to touch/feel it" aspect of this that someone will bring up. A somewhat valid point. Except that given the number of transactions that occur over the net every day without touching/feeling maybe that's not so important anymore.
Howard,
I agree. A couple of points that should be noted based on comments so far.
Value. That all depends on a willing seller and willing buyer. It all about what someone perceives the value of an item is. People thought $29.95 was steep, too, back when that actually was what you paid for a new brass engine in some cases.
The idea that there's some magical point where it's not worth paying more is a personal yardstick. $500 is about twice what a very nice plastic engine will bring and some will never spend more than that, regardless of the cost of new production. New production means a loco will probably be closer to four times what a plastic engine costs. But let's not pertend there's not a market out there for engines at that price, which is not really out of line with values in similar relationships going back to when brass got to be a big deal after WWII.
speaking of markets...
Brass market It's out there, even if most model railroaders no longer see it because the full page ads aren't in MR any more. Yes, limited new production. There are always people who can afford what you and I can't, even when times are tough. That's why certain year cars are pretty rare, because few could afford them. That's also why you've got a great choice of Santa Fe locos built from the 60s to the 80s, as there were a million of them made.
The simple fact is, brass is permanent. Unless destroyed by outside forces, if kept properly stored, that brass loco will be as exquisite in 500 years as it is now. Admittedly, some plastic will be too, but it's the brass that will be ultra rare. Those who can afford it are finding a great market to selectively invest in for the future. Model railroading, at least of the hard core brass buying -- and even brass using category (as many narrowgaugers are) -- will always be around.
So while it may seem that there's less brass around, it's out there, somewhere, and mostly doesn't crumble away, like so many other things.
ACYIn short, I'm not sure about the viability of an all-brass show; but I'm sure such a show would be smaller than it would have been a few years ago. Tom
I fully concur about brass models no longer being plentiful at shows. Is this due to lack of interest, or the once many fine dealers no longer active either because of death, illness, age, or costs? As of this writing there are over 13,500 listings of HO brass models on eBay......and many will be sold. Some of these models will fetch prices way over current guide figures. Major dealers such as Dan's Model Trains and others have very active web sites with huge inventories and a simple examination will show that much is being sold. A recent 3 part auction of brass trains in Harrisburg, PA brought in prices way in excess of what most experts could have imagined. ( I had placed in all 3 auctions over 300 bids and won only 6 items at prices most dealers would have run from).
To compare a fine brass model which is hand-built by artisans to a mass produced plastic toy is in my opinion...a travesty. Both plastic/die-cast and brass models have their own niches. There are many reasons to purchase a brass model....if you are modeling a period in time, and to fill your desired roster, and if what you are looking for is not available in "unbrass", then most likely a brass counterpart can be found. Then brass models offer much for the collector (and accumulator)......you may collect models of a specific road, wheel arrangements, named passenger trains, MOW equipment, cabees, importers or builders, and so on. Many times if purchased correctly, you may recover most of your costs when it comes time to sell......often all of your cost and sometimes a small profit. Plastic???
Runability???? Newer imports are magnificent in all aspects and will run to perfection. Older brass can be made to run just the same way with skills either by you or others. I ran in my shop during 1973 to 1975 a PFM PRR K-4... 8 hours per day day for almost two years Miles and hours? Do the math. I also ran some Rivarossi models as I was also a dealer then. Nice models, but after a few months or weeks, they became shelf queens. The K-4 still runs to perfection today and being over 45 years old....only the plating on the drivers are worn.
Then of course there are folks who just want to own the finest and yes many do purchase for the art value. Personally I love brass and not only do I appreciate what goes into them and the fine art factor......I also play with them. They were made for this very purpose!
The newer plastic and die-cast models are indeed wonderful, most are made and run rather well, they look great, and are considerably cheaper than brass.....but they are what they are.
I do feel emphatically, that if properly advertised and promoted, a show exclusively about brass models would do quite well today as in days of yore.
There is still much more to be said about this topic and brass models in general.
What brass I see at shows is usualy with a vendor that is selling an estate or collection that included some brass. Brass only dealers are far and few between at the shows I attend. Even the huge Dupage County fair grounds show doesnt really have any brass only dealers. A few seem to always have brass, most of which is overpriced and can be found much cheaper on ebay. The online 24/7 auction site known as ebay seems to have become the new brass marketplace. One can reach a much larger audience than might be at a show and at much less expense. New brass is way out of my budget. I look for older diesels and steam. I espicaly like to find older Alco models and Hallmark diesels and rework them to run well. I am on the hunt for an Alco Models EMD NW2 right now. Cheers and happy brass hunting! Mike
I suspect I'm "stuck" with a lot of brass that has been diminishing in cash value over the past several years, and it won't sell for anywhere near what I've paid for it. Potential purchasers just don't seem to be there any more. Older guys who know the difference between a P.M. Berkshire and an N.K.P. Berkshire are getting scarcer and scarcer every day. The people who knew about such things were the heart of the market. In this climate, you just can't find people who care about the subtle (and not so subtle) differences that brass models represented.
I get confused when somebody says they have a plastic Rock Island 4-8-4. Then I discover that they have a plastic Santa Fe 4-8-4 that is lettered for Rock Island. I guess that's OK because it's close enough to satisfy the owner, but if I wanted a Rock Island 4-8-4, it wouldn't satisfy me. But my generation is dying out, and there are so many who have no real experience with steam and no depth to their understanding of steam locos. Since steam locos are the heart of the brass market, it stands to reason that the market is drying up.
That being said, even though I know I represent a small market, I know that there are a few brass items that would be high on my acquisition list if I were to find them. Maybe the changing age/experience demographics mean that the availability of some of these items will increase as the market decreases, and the prices will begin to drop. I believe the availability of the Bachmann B&O EM-1 has probably done a number on the resale value of my brass EM-1's. But I don't think I'll be selling those brass EM-1's anyway because I consider those particular brass EM-1's by Key and Challenger to be vastly better models than the Bachmann. So I guess I'll live with it and look for deals on some items that I still lack.
In short, I'm not sure about the viability of an all-brass show; but I'm sure such a show would be smaller than it would have been a few years ago.
My guess is most of that business migrated to the internet after the shows shut down and it's unlikely to come back. It's just too easy to list and too easy to find things on the web 24/7/365, something which a limited engagement physical presence will find hard to compete with.
I can see niches where such a show might fit. The NMRA's National is one, an obvious hotsopt of consumer desire. The National Narrow Gauge Convention might be another, although I suspect a more limited interest in brass beyond the obvious narrow gauge interest. But a show in a separate venue that requires a duplication of effort/expense sounds hard to justify if I was already a vendor at either. Bringing in a new set of vendors might work, if there was a critical mass to do so.
The regional shows and RPM meets offer tantilizing possibilities, but I doubt the demographics are really there to support a separate show at most of those, for somewhat differnt reasons with RPM. Those folks have limited interest in brass because they'd rather build it themselves. Not brass-antagonistic, just relatively fewer among them would seem that interested given the nature of the event itself.
I wonder. I sure don't see the brass collectors with their "want list" notebooks and their wads of cash at the brass tables at "regular" model train shows anymore. I used to. The brass tables themselves are getting few and far between at general interest train shows.
Similarly I used to see glinty eyed collectors with their notebooks and money clips at the railroadiana shows buying railroad china and silver, conductor uniforms. builder's plates, etc. I see much much less of that now and many such shows have shrunk incredibly. I mention that because the brass collectors, the railroadiana collectors, and to some extent the slide collectors, all had the same expression on their face.
Most of the guys of an age to collect brass and railroadiana and slides are perhaps reaching deassessioning stages in life.
If there was an all brass show I could imagine someone making a pretty penny at a table, not selling or trading brass, but offering to install DCC decoders "While U Wait."
Before 9-11 there were two shows for exclusively for brass model trains......one on the west coast and one in the mid-Atlantic area. I believe both shows ended just after the 9-11 attacks as many could not immediately fly into these events.
Much has change since then....question: Would a brass show be viable today?