hornblower May I ask why you are bothering with the soundboard product? In all my years as an acoustical engineer (over 30), I've never seen a more successfully marketed product with absolutely no acoustical benefits.
May I ask why you are bothering with the soundboard product? In all my years as an acoustical engineer (over 30), I've never seen a more successfully marketed product with absolutely no acoustical benefits.
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
Streetspook,
Sorry if I sounded too negative in my previous response but I simply hate that way that so many people swear by such a worthless product. I highly suspect that it was the other modifications you had to make to your home in order to install the soundboard that yielded any improvements in the sound transmission. Installing new drywall over a sheet of soundboard reduces the physical rigidity of the connections between the drywall and the studs. This "softening" of the connections between the drywall and studs would have far more acoustical effect than any amount of sound absorption offered by the soundboard (almost nill). However, installing resilient channels between the drywall and studs/floor joists (and skipping the soundboard altogether) would have produced far superior noise reduction. You might indeed get some improvement in footfall noise by placing the soundboard under hard finished flooring. However, there are far more effective products and techniques for this type of application as well.
The bane of an acoustical engineer's career is the fact that we are almost always the last people to be contacted when there is a noise control or sound reinforcement issue, even though we usually have the most cost effective answers. People usually defer to a building contractor or sound system contractor first depending on the problem. By the time we are finally called in, we usually find that the client has already blown their budget using all the wrong products and/or techniques. I have run into contractors who charged their client huge amounts to install soundboard and insisted that great improvements were achieved. However, when I showed their client the actual ASTM defined test results reporting no measurable acoustical improvement, their only response was to try to start a fistfight. I've also seen home theater installers make all kinds of modifications to the walls of the theater room only to leave the original doors and windows in place, even though they represented the greatest acoustical leaks in the first place.
As we see repeated over and over in this forum, its your layout so do what you want. I just thought it would be better to save the expense of the soundboard and put your money into other parts of the layout. Using Woodlands Scenic foam roadbed atop the soundboard woud be acoustically redundant anyway. I also used WS foam roadbed on my layout and found it provided all the train noise reduction I was likely to achieve.
Hornblower
streetspook Well, I'm not an acoustical engineer so I don't have the experience that you would, however, I have used this stuff under subfloor in the second floor of my house as well as between the wall studs and drywall in those same rooms that had two teenage girls in them. Their rooms were directly over my TV room and I didn't want to hear them while I was watching John Wayne. It drastically reduced the noise transmitted down and out from their rooms and what noise did come through was very muted. Reading lots of discussions about train noise made me really want to attack that problem from the beginning. I plan on using sound equipped locos, cars and sound effects throughout the layout and don't want to compete with train noise. I hope it works. ANYWAY, got an opinion about glue?
Well, I'm not an acoustical engineer so I don't have the experience that you would, however, I have used this stuff under subfloor in the second floor of my house as well as between the wall studs and drywall in those same rooms that had two teenage girls in them. Their rooms were directly over my TV room and I didn't want to hear them while I was watching John Wayne. It drastically reduced the noise transmitted down and out from their rooms and what noise did come through was very muted. Reading lots of discussions about train noise made me really want to attack that problem from the beginning. I plan on using sound equipped locos, cars and sound effects throughout the layout and don't want to compete with train noise. I hope it works.
ANYWAY, got an opinion about glue?
streetspook Bob, Thanks for the info, I knew there was a reason for having beer in the fridge. Uh oh, wait a minute, now guys will start a new thread on the difference in metal expansion using a cold beer versus a room temp and the drying time of the caulk. Whew ! I need a beer just thinking about it. Bill
Bob, Thanks for the info, I knew there was a reason for having beer in the fridge. Uh oh, wait a minute, now guys will start a new thread on the difference in metal expansion using a cold beer versus a room temp and the drying time of the caulk. Whew ! I need a beer just thinking about it.
Bill
I used woodland scenics foam roadbed with their recommended glue on top of 2" extruded foam board. I laid out all the track and secured with thumb tacks, then ran trains over it for several hours (I used the beer cans a different way) for a few weeks. Being satisfied with running condition I "ballasted" a section of track and skipped adhesive.
I used the 70% alcohol/matte medium/eye dropper method to secure the ballast. It's been a few weeks and seems ok. I can attest to the long set up time of acrylic.
On the curves I blasted up to about 1/4" away from the tacks. Once the matte medium set up I removed the tacks then filled in the missing ballast spots. I was worried the fill ins would stick out but you can't tell a difference.
I chose this method to avoid the mess potential but I'm curious as to the mess I'll encounter if I bump the ballasted track before it's glued.
This pic was taken while the filled in spots were freshly matte mediumed. It's still wet but when cured it's seamless. This is my first layout since the one I had one as a child decades ago.
Thanks rrebell, I will allow at least a week if not longer between gluing the foam track bed and then gluing track down.
Thanks Bob K, I'm not sure about the dryness of the sound board. That may very well be a problem because the stuff does seem very dry, but the surface is very tight.
Thanks Dave.
Caulk is the way to go but it will take time to set up, could take a week, it depends on how much air gets too it. It sticks rather fast but to compleatly cure takes time. I wish people would know this that all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! acyrilics take time to cure, sometimes a long time!!!! People new to painting on canvas try out the high bodied paints on the flat for a more 3D effect, after it is dry to the touch some pick it up and put it on an easel as soon as dry, come back later and their art is sagging.
I'm not sure that all of the responses are addressing the OPs issue.
He is trying to attach foam roadbed to sound board. To me, that means one porous material to another. That's not the same thing as attaching cork or foam roadbed to wood.
- Douglas
You've done your homework and quite a bit of 'trial and error". I wonder if the soundboard is just so porous that it is prematurely drying/ absorbing the adhesives. original "Homoste" even though porous, never seemed to do this. have you thought of a paint primer or a shellac sealer first. I know any additional steps in tracklaying may be a pain, but may solve the issues. If this is the case, then DAP Alex Plus would be my choice and cheap to boot. Would allow a decent bond and as mentioned can reposition any unsatisfactory trackwork.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
I WANT to be able to peel it up if needed. I use DAP caulk spread so thin you can see through it. It has never come up unless I put a tool under it and lifted it. When I do that it is not damaged and can be reused.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
For what it's worth, I used latex caulk to glue the WS foam roadbed down and did not use any weight. I used the same caulk to glue the track but did weight it down. If the caulk comes up between the ties you used too much. Cans of beer work perfectly for weight and can be recycled after they have done their thing. Of course you don't want to use Lite beer.
Bob
Don't Ever Give Up
Thanks, Mike. I plan on using 2x4's or a couple of 1x4's with weight spread across them and do 6-8' sections at a time. That's also why I thought to spread the adhesive pretty thin to try and keep it flat but I found I'm going to need it a bit thicker to hold better. I'll try my best to keep things as flat as possible.
Off topic, but good question. No I have an open grid system with either 1x2, 1x4 or 2x4 as supports and/or additional flat support running under the OSB roadbed. Its strong. I added girders under runs between support beam that were 14 or more inches across. It's not moving.
Thanks, Bill
I've done just a limited amount of bonding tracks in place, instead of spiking. One caution is to get the pressure spread evenly and don't overweight. Otherwise you'll end up with bumps and valleys you didn't plan on. You can do this with spikes (in fact, did that just last night and had to undo it today) but the problem usually becomes obvious before you get too far. You can get a lot of track down that's bumpy before you discover it with adhesives (other than contact cement, which acts more like spikes in following the surface.)
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Not meaning to vere too far off topic .... is your OSB plywood mounted to a table top framework or mounted to L-girder risers ? The reason I ask is that OSB - especially 1/2" - doesn't have a whole lot of self supporting strength. I had a friend of mine who used the same thing mounted on risers spaced 16 inches apart, and it wasn't long before they started to sag slightly even between that short distance !
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
Thanks. I figured on weighting the track to the foam bed but didn't think about just weighing the foam to the sound board.
Thank you Randy, Yeah, I'm thinking that a little thicker application of the stuff and it will be fine.
You need to place weight on the roadbed while the caulk sets --
I used Alex latex caulk from Home Depot spread in a very thin coating and placed split bricks on top for about one hour. Split bricks, also available at Home Depot, are half the thickness of a regular brick, and may not be available in all locations. You could just as easily use a full sized brick.
I use PolySeamSeal brand latex adhesive caulk, has held both Woodland Scenics foam and cork roadbed with no problem, and then also holds the track to the roadbed material. It says latex adhesive caulk on the label - andy other brand should be just as good.
It takes a while to actually set up. If you attach some WS foam roadbed and the com back an hour or two later - it WILL easily peel up. Wait til the next day. After an hour or so, it won;t shift easily, so you can continue towkign, but don't expect it to resist actual peeling up for about 24 hours.
Even then - it WILL peel off, and if you are careful, not even damage the roadbed. This is not a negative. In fact, those that haven't tried the newer methods of using caulk as an adhesive will often dismiss the idea because they say, unlike nailing the roadbed down, you can't change your mind and pull up the track and roadbed without damaging it. Hogwash. On my previous layout, after I had a whole section with a passing tracka nd two sidings in place, I changed my mind and removed it all. I certainly wasn't going to throw out four $13 turnouts - I reused them elsewhere. ANd the one whole section of flextrack, I was able to reuse. About theonly thing I didn;t reuse where the cut to fit smaller sections fo flex track that filled the gap. So yes, track and roadbed laid this way WILL come loose if you abuse it, or deliberately try to remove it. It will not break loose under the runnign of trains, and after balalst is secured, that will also assist in keeping it all in place.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Hi folks, Thanks ahead of time for your replies and help. So I'm building a new layout and at the roadbed stage. My sub roadbed is 1/2" OSB plywood with a 1/2" soundboard. This soundboard comes in 4x8 sheets, is a very dense, fiber material and somewhat porus, from Home Depot. Both of these layers were nailed with finish nails (nail gun) to their support structure. I'm going to apply a glue (?) to hold the Woodland Scenics foam track-bed (HO). I've read a number of posts here and other places on which glue to use and it seems that if you ask ten people you get ten different opinions. So I did a little experiment and applied a number of glues to some leftover scrap sound board pieces with about 2" long pieces of the WS foam. Let them dry 24 hrs and processed the results. Basically, I was able to easily peel up the foam on every piece except one. Now, is a train going over the track going to apply the same pressure I did to peel it up? NO. But . . . . Here's what I used that failed: Elmers WoodGlue Max, Dap Alex painters caulk, Liquid Nails Projects construction adhesive, Liquid Nails Paneling adhesive. The one that held is Dap Dynaflex 230. Now, I did use a small amount of glue and spread it very thin, almost transparent. Maybe they needed a thicker amount.
Here's my question, do I need to buy ($$$) Woodland Scenics foam glue? Or maybe apply the glue a bit thicker? The Dap 230 isn't cheap either.