Smoking or Non Smoking?

[Anonymous]

And no, I am not referring to cigarettes! (I don't smoke, never have). [tdn]

I'm referring to the newer Lionel and MTH engines - steam and diesel - that can emit smoke. What do members think of using this feature at public train shows? The newer units have fans inside so that smoke is continually pouring out of the stacks.

I belong to a model railroad club whose members are mostly HO scale modelers on modules. We have an annual show in mid winter, and set up our modular layout. We do have a few O scale guys who set up their trains too. My problem is the smoking engines. The Canadian Province we live in just passed a law on the first of October prohibiting cigarette smoking in ALL public indoor facilities - bars, restaurants, etc. While I don't think the smoking models are affected by this new law, I am concerned that they are not leading a good example to the public, and especially to the children.

The children really get a kick out of seeing their large trains running around at table level (our modules are somewhat higher). I doubt if the engines did not smoke they would miss it.

The O scale guys are kind of touchy on this subject, as if we are trying to curtail their operating fun. After all they've paid a lot of money for these engines that smoke and want to show them off.

A few members in our club had allergies, and when the smoke in the school gym gets kinda thick, it does bother them.

So what to other clubs do in similar situations? I realise this question could be posed on the tinplate lists, but I doubt if I'd get much sympathy there!

Thanks!

Bob Boudreau

[Anonymous]

The smoke of a steam engine has somehow become a romantic notion. But from what I've read, smoke was something less than romantic for railroaders who had to deal with it. It seems to have always been a problem to be overcome or be dealt with. Passenger and freight cars looked like crap with its coating of soot, passengers and train crew had to breathe it, cities banned certain types of locomotives diesals lashed up behind steam during the transition sucked smoke into it's air intakes, etc.

Model railroaders have an option to completely eliminate what was usually seen as a problem. While I'm not fortunate enought to have a nearby club to belong to, I'd vote to not run smoking locos, steam or diesel. Certainly not prototypical I'll admit, but even the LPBs are not permitted to smoke on my layout.

Wayne

[vsmith]

I have been to a couple of train shows where the smoke was sooooo bad I thought the Fire Marshall would close it down if he saw it!. If a hall is large enough the smoke (which is BURNING OIL in most cases) dissapates well enough but I can smell it the second I enter the hall and it lingers on your cloths like cigarette smoke, just one of those things you come to expect at a train show. So far I havent used it at home, to irritating to my eyes.

Given a choice between smoke generators or cigarette smokers, I'll take the model train smoke any day!

[Fergmiester]

I have a couple of engines that can smoke and after running them in my basement for several minutes it became obvious that running them smoking wasn't an option.

My eyes became irritated and allergies kicked in. I personally have concerns with this stuff being used in an enclosed, poorly ventilated area as we are burning an oil distillate.

Nova Scotia has the highest asthma rate in Canada and many places have gone with a No Scents policy for the simple reason, perfumes and other scented products are causing many to have adverse reactions. So I think this would add fuel to your argument Bob.

Ask yourself this: "would you be allowed to emit noxious fumes within the workplace regardless of the reason?"

To some this may seem ridiculous but to some it is potentially life threatening. The stats are there to back me up!

Regards
Fergie

[JerryZeman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FundyNorthern

And no, I am not referring to cigarettes! (I don't smoke, never have). [tdn]

I'm a "social smoker", and my wife is a light smoker. [:O] In moderation, I don't think there is anything wrong with the occasional enjoyment of tobacco, any more than alcohol. Neither my wife nor I will smoke in the house, or around the kids. We seem to want to reap scorn on all smokers, but yet it is OK to allow other hi-risk behaviours such as parking one's behind on a rice rocket or Harley and ignore speed limits, and in the US, do it without any sort of personal protective gear.

People are getting WAY to thin skinned. Enough of the editorial comment on smoking.

QUOTE: I'm referring to the newer Lionel and MTH engines - steam and diesel - that can emit smoke. What do members think of using this feature at public train shows? The newer units have fans inside so that smoke is continually pouring out of the stacks.

For me, that is a large part of the attraction of hi-rail. I am primarily a HO modeler, with a sizeable 50s era layout in my basement. None of my locomotives have sound, but I do use DCC. I don't like sound in HO, and I don't want my locomotives smoking.

Hi-Rail is different, the sound is awesome, and the smoke adds another layer of sensory input. So yes, in a nutshell, when I set up at a train show, my locomotives are going to smoke. I also have mild asthma, and one of the few times my inhaler gets a workout is when I go to a train show where the modular group I belong to sets up. Part of the price I pay to enjoy a perk of hi-rail. I get the same symptoms when I hang around the real thing too, steam or diesel, and I do the diesel thing on a regular basis, as my job requires it.

QUOTE: I belong to a model railroad club whose members are mostly HO scale modelers on modules. We have an annual show in mid winter, and set up our modular layout. We do have a few O scale guys who set up their trains too. My problem is the smoking engines. The Canadian Province we live in just passed a law on the first of October prohibiting cigarette smoking in ALL public indoor facilities - bars, restaurants, etc. While I don't think the smoking models are affected by this new law, I am concerned that they are not leading a good example to the public, and especially to the children.

So, you infer that smoke from one of my O scale steam locomotive models is going to cause children to smoke? Oh, PULEASE. When we set up at shows, the kids are piled around the O scale stuff, while the HO and N stuff sees less kid traffic. That doesn't make our setup any more attractive from a modelling perspective. Heck, when my run time is up, I'm off drolling at the outstanding modeling that I see at these events with other groups, stealing ideas to incorporate into my HO and O Hi-rail modelling. The kids like big trains, like the sound, like the smoke. They may even grow up to become HO modelers.

QUOTE: The children really get a kick out of seeing their large trains running around at table level (our modules are somewhat higher). I doubt if the engines did not smoke they would miss it.

Oh, they would miss it, but not enough to throw a tantrum about it. The only people that will throw a tantrum are the owners of said smoking beasts, who took the time, and expense, to set up, on their own time, for a show to promote the hobby.

QUOTE: The O scale guys are kind of touchy on this subject, as if we are trying to curtail their operating fun. After all they've paid a lot of money for these engines that smoke and want to show them off.

You are trying to curtail our operating fun.

QUOTE: A few members in our club had allergies, and when the smoke in the school gym gets kinda thick, it does bother them.

I personally get almost sick to my stomach when I have to deal with the disguisting site and smells of a Canadian dousing his french fries with vinegar and ketchup at restaurants. To date, I haven't puked all over the place when encountered with this behaviour that is totally offensive to me. Deal with it.

QUOTE: So what to other clubs do in similar situations? I realise this question could be posed on the tinplate lists, but I doubt if I'd get much sympathy there!

Thanks!

Bob Boudreau

You won't get any sympathy from me either. Complain to me at a show, and I'll ignore you. Complain loud enough to the operator of the show, and FORCE me to turn off my smoke, and I won't be back at that show next year. This sniping isn't going to do this hobby any good. But feel free to claim the moral high ground if you feel the need to.

regards,
Jerry Zeman

[orsonroy]

I personally don't like model trains that smoke, unless they're the ridable live steam versions. I've spent a lot of time around real steam engines, and have yet to see an electric toy train emit the right amount of smoke (sound, on the other hand, is a great thing to have in model steamers). And I've heard from lots of modelers that the smoke leaves an oily residue on the tracks, which is no good for us 2-rail DC/DCC guys.

[Anonymous]

I can never get the necessary EPA approval so I don't blow any.

[Anonymous]

Bob,

I just had a picture flash in my mind of members on the sidewalk outside the club, running smoking loco' s around a loop on the sidewalk. :)

I know this thread is crying out to become a flame war. (I hope not.)

Wayne

[bcammack]

QUOTE: Originally posted by JerryZeman
[br}
You won't get any sympathy from me either. Complain to me at a show, and I'll ignore you. Complain loud enough to the operator of the show, and FORCE me to turn off my smoke, and I won't be back at that show next year. This sniping isn't going to do this hobby any good. But feel free to claim the moral high ground if you feel the need to.

regards,
Jerry Zeman

Sounds to me like a self-correcting problem then, doesn't it. I love that rugged individualism that says you'll bloody well do as you please without regard to the comfort or welfare of those around you.

Small wonder that train shows often come off as "Curmudgeons-R-Us" conventions... [V]

[fec153]

Here in Fla. it's strictly NO SMOKING! You want to smoke, you step outside. I did see a few models,engines-that is, smoke while running.
Phil

[Anonymous]

JerryZeman, I really don't think all that was neccicary.....Not like anyone is going to respect the opininoin of a 13 year old, but here I go : I think that smoking locos may be a little innapropriat for public shows due to health reasons, but until it is banned there is really not a whole lot to do about it. I think that smoking locos look cool , but they are unprtotypical and I don't use them.

[twhite]

Model locomotives smoking are like modeling with actual water in your layout riverbed. It just doesn't look realistic. No matter how much the manufacturer tries to get an authentic 'chuff' out of a model locomotive, the wisps still look like they're coming from a burning cigarette. In other words--WISPS. Besides, I'm old enough to remember steam, and for the most part, the railroad I grew up around ran pretty clean. A lot of that 'steam' you see in photographs pouring out of the stack is simply that--for the photograph, to make the locomotive more dramatic. Of course, on a cold wintry day, you'd see more, but that was just temperature condensation. As to objecting to a smoking loco on a layout--hey, if it gives the people a kick, I don't mind. I just don't think it looks to scale, is all.

[Fergmiester]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Oklahoma Train Nut

JerryZeman, I really don't think all that was neccicary.....Not like anyone is going to respect the opininoin of a 13 year old, but here I go : I think that smoking locos may be a little innapropriat for public shows due to health reasons, but until it is banned there is really not a whole lot to do about it. I think that smoking locos look cool , but they are unprtotypical and I don't use them.

Well said Alex

Age has nothing to do with this as you have as much a right to clean air as the rest of us

Jerry I didn't see Bob's post as a rant or an anti smoking post. I think he was looking for other peoples opinions, observations and experiences.

[Anonymous]

I've operated an LGB steamer with a smoke unit fitted at an exhibition - was running it as part of a demonstration layout for my LHS. The setup used one of the LGB MTS starter sets - hence switchable smoke. I found the smoke was very popular with visitors, especially younger ones! I didn't run the smoke constantly as this would have diminished the effect (and we only had a limited supply of smoke fluid). Other problem was the smoke seemed to leave oily marks on the loco bodywork - realistic, but difficult to clean off.

Interesting debate about full-size steam smoke - my great-grandfather was a Guard (Conductor) back in the days of steam and during the transition to diesels, and I recall my grandmother saying that her mother was very pleased by the change to diesels as it meant that his work clothes didn't require as much work to remove the soot when washing them!

Personally, I've never had problems with smoke at exhibitions - then again, there are not that many locos and layouts using this system over here - LGB and other large scale manufacturers are the only ones ususally encountered and these are not often found at shows except as store demonstrators. Just my opinion!

[ben10ben]

The smoke is one of the biggest things that attracts me to O gauge. I, personally, would rather have smoke than sound or a couple of other features.

For the record, though, there is no combustion, therefore, it is not smoke. It's vaporized mineral oil(usually), vaporized propylene glycol(used all the time in fog machines, based on the same principle as model smoke), or vaporized meta-terphenyl(Lionel postwar engines using pellets). This is not known to be a health hazard.

Now, a quick science lesson for those of you who want to know how smoke units work. The smoke medium, which is mineral oil, propylene glycol, or meta-terphenyl, is boiled and vaporized by a heater inside the smoke unit. It is driven out of the smoke unit by a piston or fan, where it contacts the much cooler ambient air, and condenses to form a colloid, or fog, in other words. It is generally cooler than the air in the room by the time it condenses, so, unlike smoke, it usually doesn't rise, but rather hovers where it's left until it settles out. It can possibly set off a smoke alarm should it come into contact with it, but this does not mean that it's smoke.

[JerryZeman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Oklahoma Train Nut

I think that smoking locos look cool , but they are unprtotypical and I don't use them.

Obviously, you have never seen a set of EMD's after they have been sitting around idling for 12 plus hours, with cold water temperature, notch out from idle to full load over a relatively short time when the last car clears the yard limits. Makes lots of bluish smoke, especially if we are talking first and second generation diesels.

In my younger days (late 60s / early 70s), I used to sit trackside for precisely such a show when the CB&Q / BN freights would leave Clyde yard in Cicero. IL. The last car usually cleared when the consist was around Wenonah avenue, and then the mosquito abatement was in full force.

Every E9 leaving Union Station with a dinky did the same thing. Blue smoke all over the place, drifting over the Zephyr pit. Environmently friendly? No. Cool? Yup.

And if one of the old beaters had a water leak, add some white smoke to the equation.

Granted, steam locs very seldom emit white smoke (except on really cold days, have some real nice pics of GN O-8s in Montana with huge white plumes bellowing from the stack), but it's the only gig in town. If somebody figures out a way to get a smoke generator to make black smoke, I'll be the first guy signing up.

regards,
Jerry Zeman

[CBQ_Guy]

Oh, I thought the thread refered to smoking or no smoking allowed in the train room. That's an issue of importance among many "auld phartz" in the hobby, including myself! [%-)]