Rio Grande's "Flying" herald?

[Anonymous]

Can someone tell me when (what year) the RIo Grande started using the flying Rio Grande herald, and how long it took to phase out the old style lettering?

Also, were there any green boilered steamers with the flying herald? It's hard to tell what color they are in black & white photo's [;)]

[twhite]

Ah, Wes, as a fellow Rio Grande model railroader, a man after my own heart. I can't give you an exact year, but the flying Rio Grande herald appeared shortly after WWII began. Before that, it was the standard "Denver and Rio Grande Western" with the tri-colored red/white/blue insignia near the center top of the tender. The locomotives recieved the new herald as they were shopped, so by 1945, just about every steamer was utilizing the new herald. As to the green boiler, it seemed to be a Salt Lake City shop thing, as I have been told, along with slanted cab-fronts and overfire jets on the fireboxes. I do know that the F-81 2-10-2, and the 1600 series 3-cylinder 4-8-2's all sported them, since they were basically dispatched from Salt Lake. I have seen some-but not all--M-78 1500 series 4-8-2's with the green boiler. Oddly enough, the big L-105 4-6-6-4's, which were originally assigned out of Salt Lake, didn't seem to get them. I have been told that the green boiler was a fairly hit and miss proposition and wasn't common on the Colorado lines. I know this information is pretty generic, but hope it helps. For my own Rio Grande, I'm sticking to black boilers and the old-style D&RGW lettering with the insignia, even though I'm modeling in the WWII-Korean War era. I just like it better.

[Anonymous]

twhite, thanks! That was a help.

I want to model the area between Helper and Provo, UT (it'll have to be really compressed though), with a fictional interchange with the AT&SF (I need a reason to run that BLI northern!). I would agree that I like the black boilers better as well, but I'm pretty torn on which lettering I like best, so I was thinking I'd just run both, so I'm glad to hear that they could both be seen around WWII.

Since you mentioned the over fire jets, can you tell me how they worked and what they were supposed to do? Were they simply a D&RGW thing?

Thanks! I love this forum!

[twhite]

No, the overfire jets were used on quite a few coal-burning railroads. I dont exactly know HOW they worked, but evidently they increased draft in the firebox and eliminated a lot of smoke. Most Rio Grande locos regularly running into Salt Lake City had to have them. All of the 2-10-2's were equipped, and some of the M-78 4-8-2's, also. During WWII, when Rio Grande steam was dispatched all over the road instead of on certain districts, I think the idea of the overfire jets kind of went the way of the dinosaur. As to your ATSF interchange, why not? I mean, my Rio Grande is a fictional California extension via the Yuba River watershed in the Sierra Nevada. Curious, though, are you running models of actual Rio Grande steam power, or generic locos lettered for the road? The reason I ask, is that models of Rio Grande standard gauge steam are generally brass imports, and not that easy to find. I know from experience, it's taken me about 25 years of collecting to get mine. Wish BLI or P2K or Spectrum or Genesis would come out with some Rio Grande prototypes--not the Genesis 4-6-6-4, which is a UP copy that the Rio Grande only leased and got rid of really quick. If you want some good info on Rio Grande steam, you might want to check out a book called DENVER AND RIO GRANDE WESTERN: SUPERPOWER RAILROAD OF THE ROCKIES by Robert LeMassina. It was published in 1999 by TLC press. Your local hobby shop might be able to get ahold of a copy for you, it deals a lot with the locos that were assigned on the Utah lines from Grand Junction to Salt Lake.
Tom

[Anonymous]

Tom, thanks for the tip on the book, I'll keep on eye out for it.

I mostly have been collecting D&RGW diesels at the moment. Picked up a few F units from different manufacturers to see what I like the best...I really like the Genesis units, but unless you can find a really good deal, they are a little pricey. Besides, the 4 stripe units are REALLY hard to find! The steamers I've got are all AT&SF models. I know what you mean about having to get the brass ones. I watch ebay like a hawk, but nothing is ever in my price range...

I've emailed BLI a couple times with my wish list for D&RGW steam as well as some CB&Q steam, that if it ever comes out in plastic will definatly find a home at my house. I think I'd be happy running 4-8-4's and the big 4-8-2's. I'd really like to see a D&SL 2-8-2 in plastic...you know the ones with the feedwater heater on the smokebox front? With all the talk about the Athearn Genesis Challenger's price drop, I really thought about getting one, but I'd really rather have a 1700 class northern, so I'll just wait!

It's nice to talk to another Rio Grande fan! Thanks for the help!

[Anonymous]

I believe that the M-64 and M-68 4-8-4's also were delivered with green boilers and the original style lettering. I have several books on the Grande and have never seen a picture of a green boiler loco with the modern lettering. The period in time of the green boilered engines was not long and most were re-painted into black and still had the old style lettering. When the updated and modernized "Flying" herald was initiated almost all the power was back to basic black, and the few locos still in green soon picked up the black with modern lettering.

Salt Lake City had an ordinance requring the overfire jets to be used on all steam locos to reduce smoke. The jets were high pressure air nozzles directing air over the fire to improve the draft and create a more complete burn of the coal. The overfire jets add a lot of detail to the firebox area of the Grande engines. C&O was another railroad that utilized overfire jets extensively and had them installed on all their newest power, even switch engines.

[Robert Langford]

Its good to hear someone talking Rio Grand. I grew up in Park City, Utah, and I can remember the once a day visit of the Grand from Salt Lake. By the way, I am sorry I didn't take pictures then, as it is hard to find the old roadbed since the freeway was built in Parleys Canyon. The only tunnel on the Park city line can still be seen (where it was) if you know where to look. Also, there was a very large, curved wood tresel over Lambs Canyon.

[twhite]

Wes: FYI, P2K is supposed to be coming out with a non-N&W USRA 2-8-8-2 sometime in the near future. The Rio Grande 3500 series locos are exact copies, and I understand that P2K is going to be marketing one in Rio Grande lettering. They regularly ran between Helper and Provo, usually as helpers for the L-105's over Soldier Summit. I have a brass one from Oriental (the old Powerhouse series), and they're handsome as all get-out. Also check out Caboose Hobbies in Denver, sometimes they have some Rio Grande brass steam that isn't TOO far out of reach, usually 2-8-0's and 4-8-2's. Also check with Peach Creek Shops in Laurel, MD. Sometimes they have Rio Grande brass, and they don't seem to be as expensive as Caboose. I know that Sunset produced models of the 1600 Mountains, and 1700 and 1800 Northerns some years back--they're good, smooth models, I've got one of each, and I didn't have to pay an arm and a leg for them. You might try hunting them down, they were running in the $300-$400 range about a year ago, which these days, is pretty reasonable for brass. Westside put out a nice L-105, that doesn't seem to be re-selling at the national debt. Unfortunately, the PFM Rio Grande locos (4-8-2 3-cylinder, 2-8-8-2, 4-6-2, 2-10-2) seem to be out of EVERYONE'S reach, unless your last name happens to be Getty or Rockefeller. I know Genesis had a light 2-8-2 in Rio Grande lettering--both traditional and 'flying', but they're very light pullers, and USRA prototype, which is not correct for the Rio Grande 1200 series. Unfortunately, you and I have fallen in love with a railroad that had VERY distinctive motive power. But oboy, what beautiful steam locomotives!
Tom

[Anonymous]

I'll keep my eyes out for the old tunnel...I've never noticed it before. I still live in the area so maybe I'll take a trip with the family to see the leaves...yeah the leaves! [;)]

I was at www.brasstrains.com the other day and saw an old PFM model of a D&RGW 4-8-4 that is listed for over $2,600!! I can't believe it! He also has a Key 2-8-2 that is at $350, but it's not painted. Been thinking hard about that one! I haven't seen a P2K steamer in person, so I'm not too familier with them. Are they as nice as the BLI models? I noticed Caboose Hobbies ad for them in MR last month, if I'm not mistaken they were in the $350 range with sound and decoder...everything seems like it's $300 and up anymore!

Tom, do you try to pick your brass models up already painted or do you do it yourself? I think I'd have a hard time doing myself,so a paint job would have to be factored into the cost as well...oh well it's only money, right!?

[Anonymous]

The Key Imports 2-8-2 is a good buy at $350.00. The engines were built by Samhongsa in the early years of Korean built brass, but these came in very well constructed and also run well. At that price you would not lose any money if you decided to sell at a later date. There was only one run of about 200 engines imported. When I have found them for sale they usually didn't sit long if priced right. Same for the D&SL mikado.

Factory painted brass from Korean builders didn't start hitting the market until about 1990. You will often find the older brass engines that were painted needing at least touch-up, if not a re-paint unless really well done. If you can find a local painter that is reliable and does good work you'll have a fresh paint job that does justice to the model.

The PFM M-64 and M-68 Crowns seem to have prices ranging all over the board. Some collectors feel that because they are a Crown model they are more rare and valuable than they actually are. Key and Overland both imported these models with nicer detail and similar running qualities, with the Overland being factory painted. Within the past four months I have seen a PFM M-68 sitting at a hobby shop on consignment at $850, and another at a internet dealer for $1995. Both unpainted.

[twhite]

Wes, I have the Key 2-8-2, got it used, painted and weathered at my LHS, cost me $375 and is definitely worth it. I have several Key locos, they're good runners and very decent pullers. Someone was getting rid of their Rio Grande collection, and I picked up the 2-8-2 and a neat little PFM Rio Grande Pacific that was going for the same price. There was also a Key M-68 and a Westside L-105 going for very REASONABLE prices, but by the time I went back to get them, they were gone. Wierd, I thought I was the only Rio Grande fanatic here in the Sacramento area. But then I read that Murrieta is from Roseville, which is only 7 miles away from me. Was that YOU that raided Bruce's Trains the next day, Murrieta?
Tom

[twhite]

Wes--me again. You asked about the P2K locos, if they were as good as BLI. I've only got one, the so-called USRA 2-8-8-2 they came out with several years ago, which is actually a N&W Y-3, I think. They're good haulers, smooth and trouble free. I did a little kit-bashing on mine to make it more closely resemble the N&W mallets that Rio Grande obtained during WWII (3550 series). I'm interested to see what their new authentic USRA looks like and how it runs. I'll probably pass, since I've already got the USRA 2-8-8-2 from Oriental in their old Powerhouse series and I don't really need more compound articulateds. But if it looks good, pulls well and has sound approaching BLI, who knows? I might bite. You also asked me if I painted my brass. Yah, but not really well. Can't seem to get the graphite right on the fireboxes. Right now, I'm doing some weathering on them, and a couple of them don't look too bad. I think I'm going to look up a custom painter for some of them. I don't know how much Santa Fe steam you have, but BLI's coming out with a 2-10-2 this winter, and if the sound matches the prototype, it's going to be the noisest locomotive they ever produced. I watched one on Tehachapi when I was a kid, and it sounded like a sub-machine gun. You could hear it for miles, before it came into view.
Tom

[Anonymous]

it's strange to me how much variation there is in brass models pricing. I don't own a Brown Book, but if I started getting serious about buying brass I think I'd get a copy of it...

You guys are really lucky to live where you do, being so close to the California Railroad Museum. My Dad lived in Folsom for a few years and we made a trip to the museum once...wow!! That cab-forward is awesome!

I do have a 2-10-2 on order form BLI and I can't wait to get it...I've been really happy with my BLI stuff. I think I will probably hold off on the P2K and see if I can't find a good brass model. Maybe the after release prices will come down a bit...one can hope anyway! [;)]

[twhite]

Agree with you on the Cab-forward, I was lucky (and old) enough to grow up with them over Donner Pass. I've always thought that both SP and Rio Grande steam was about the handsomest that I've ever seen. My great-uncle was a brakeman on the SP, and I got to ride in the cab of an AC-6 4-8-8-2 from Truckee over Donner Pass to Norden when I was a kid. Experience I'll NEVER forget! Both SP and Rio Grande were basically 'mountain' railroads, so they pretty much bought locos for their needs, not what was necessarily 'hot' on the loco market at the time. Funny thing, SP didn't really completely dieselize their Sierra run until 1956, because the early diesels couldn't 'breathe' well with the huge change in altitude between Roseville and Donner Summit (7000' in a little over 100 miles). Now, THAT'S a climb. Sort of like compacting the run between Pueblo and Tennessee Pass into a little more than 50 miles on the Rio Grande. As to a brass USRA 2-8-8-2, they're hard to come by. I could be wrong, but I only remember two in brass, one from AKANE in the '60's that is IMPOSSIBLE to find, and the one from Oriental Limited in their Powerhouse series. There might have been a couple more out there, but I don't remember them. I think I'm going to bite for that BLI Santa Fe, myself, my 3751 is kind of lonely.
Tom

[Anonymous]

I would kill for a cab ride in a steamer!! We visited the Brooklyn Roundhouse in Portland this summer and got to stand in the cab of 4449. What fun! I told my wife that if I ever hit the lotto, I'm restoring my own steamer! I've thought of going to Ely, NV for a chance to engineer a Nevada Northern steamer, but it's a bit out of the disposable income range! I have heard that the CA railroad museum does cab rides of an F unit...do you know if thats true?

If you have any pictures of your layout, I'd love to see a couple!

[Anonymous]

The Western Pacific Museum in Portola, California offers cab rides with your choice of several different locomotives. There is even a two hour special where you get one hour in one diesel, the next hour in a different engine. Choices include a ALCo switcher, EMD F-7, GP-9, and a GP-20, and at least one other.

Portola is on the former WP, now UP, main line NW of Reno at the east end of the Feather River Canyon. This museum, utilizing former WP buildings and yards, is well worth a visit.

I don't believe that the Sacramento museum has offered cab rides, but could be wrong. I am a member of the museum, but my volunteer time is spent in the restoration area.

While I visit Bruce's Train Shop in Sacramento I didn't happen to be the lucky guy that got the D&RGW steam that was on consignment. There were indeed some great buys.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by murrieta

The Western Pacific Museum in Portola, California offers cab rides with your choice of several different locomotives. There is even a two hour special where you get one hour in one diesel, the next hour in a different engine. Choices include a ALCo switcher, EMD F-7, GP-9, and a GP-20, and at least one other.

I'll bet that is where I was thinking...thanks! Any idea on price??

[twhite]

Wes--actually, I don't have any programs that send photos over the net, and right now my layout is about 95% unscenicked--it's my second, and I'm still working on track and wiring. It's a 24x24 garage layout--the famous "California basement" with a non-parallel double track main, similar to SP's Donner Pass route between Roseville and Truckee, CA, but with overtones of Tennessee Pass. 34" minimum radius and 2.4% maximum grades. I'm doing this layout VERY slowly so that when I start putting the scenery in (mid to high Sierra Nevada), it will run right, something my first layout never did. I run Rio Grande, with SP trackage rights, and right now I'm trying to figure out how Santa Fe suddenly got into the mix (got on the wrong interchange track at Stockton and somehow just ended up in the Sierra, I guess). Anyway, I'm having a lot of fun with it, but them more I look at my own Rio Grande paint jobs, the more I'm thinking of contacting a professional to have them re-done. Oh, by the way, took a look at the cover of the LeMassina book I was telling you about, and it shows a green-boilered 1600 3-cylinder mountain with the Flying herald pulling a train through Ruby canyon. It is however a painting, so I can't vouch for authenticity, since the author states that actual photographs of steam trains in Ruby canyon are very rare.
Tom

[Anonymous]

I can't wait to get started on my layout...I have a plan laid out in the computer, but there is one place where the curves get down to a 24" radius. It has kinda bummed me out, so I lost track of the overall plan for a little while. My room is only 9.5' x 10' though, so I don't have too many options. This winter's plan it to get carpet and fini***he lighting in there and MAYBE get the rough benchwork in.

By the way, I just ordered a copy of that book. Should be here by the 30th!

I painted two 40' boxcars for the AT&SF a few years ago that turned out OK, but I tired weathering a loco and it turned out horrible! Luckily it was an old Tyco 0-8-0 that was lying around. That pretty much ended the painting of the engines! I have great respect for guys who can paint! [:)]

[Anonymous]

Hey Tom, got my book today! haven't much time to really look through it, but I liked what I did see while flipping through. Thanks for the tip.