I'd like to revisit an article published in one fo the recent MR's about how to realistically model a car fleet. I believe Jim said 50/50 home vs away cars, If I'm remembering correctly.
The thing that has caused me to revisitthis topic is that I recently picked up the SP&S guide to freight and pasenger cars in color. In the book it states that the SP&S was known as a car thief so it could meet it's revenue needs, it also states that the parent roads also didn't want the SP&S to have a very big car fleet so that they could meet their own revenue needs.
This has caused me to look over my small fleet which is currently dominated by SP&S cars, with 3 GN cars, 3 NP cars, and 1 Q cars at this current time for freight cars. while my SP&S car fleet consists of 12 freight cars and 5 cabeese.
Since the GN and NP are considered home roads(as well as the Q since the GN "owned" them), would I have to reconsider the freight car fleet difference 85 to 15 percent in favor of the home roads or is that too much? with the 15% being dominated by neighbors UP, SP, and WP with the occasional eastern road car.
Does anybody have any input? From what I've garnered between my two SP&S books, the SP&S trains were often dominated by SP&S cars.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
I'm not sure how to answer. Part of the answer would pertain to whatever industries you might have on the layout. The originating cars would be mostly the home road (SP&S), and the terminating cars woul be mostly cars of the railroads serving the originating industries. Also, it would make sense if the SP&S, GN, NP, and CB&Q pooled some oftheir freight cars. That said, it's your railroad, and you can probably think of reasons why certain cars are on your trains.
GARRY
HEARTLAND DIVISION, CB&Q RR
EVERYWHERE LOST; WE HUSTLE OUR CABOOSE FOR YOU
if I understand your question correctly, you are trying to determine the ratio of home road ownership freight cars operating on the prototype road (SP&S), vs. foreign ownership, and private ownership (NATX, GATX, UTLX etc).
That is a somewhat difficult question, as it varied day to day. and even though SP&S was a subsidy of the GN and NP, cars from those roads, would be considered as foreign ownership, for accounting and reporting purposes.
I model a branchline of the PRR, in the mid - late 1960s. Most cars are foreign ownership, New England/Canadian roads serving the paper industry; Southern and Western ownership serving the lumber industry, private ownership serving the flour and oil industry, Home and connecting carrier coal hoppers serving a power plant. The only other home road ownership cars are gondolas and flats serving the local scrap and steel industry. So my ratio would be approximately 65% foreign and private ownership, and the balance home road. Home road cars would be about 60% flat and gond, and 40% coal. mix on other lines varied depending on traffic mix.
By car type on my layout, Box cars would be mostly foreign, Tank cars and covered hoppers, private ownership, flats and gondolas mostly home road, and coal hoppers about 60% home, 40% B&O (foreign).
Your experience will be different, based on the SP&S traffic mix, but it would break down similarly.
Joe
The SP&S was a 'thief' in that they were many times short on cars. The owners(GN/NP) usually provided older equipment that they had replaced, or when they did allow them to order new cars - the numbers were small. One of the problems for railroads operating in the NW was car supply. Good cars that were suited for lumber loading often moved around in lumber diversion circles in the Midwest, waiting for a high bidder for the lumber. Some of the shipper specified routings were quite challenging. The net result was that the lumber car did not return as fast as a normal car.
I am looking at a Jan 1951 ORER right now. The SP&S only owned 1774 box cars, 149 flat cars, and 100 gondolas(and a handfull of tank cars in 'company service'). Grabbing 'perspective empties' and loading them back via thier arriving service route is normal operation.
Modeling the SP&S - you may need to change the usual balance of freight cars seen on a layout. The usual 'mix' is 50% home road, 25% direct connections, and 25% distant railroads or private owner(like reefer cars or tank cars). I would suspect the the SP&S would be heavy in cars that support forest products, and a high % of those direct connections would be GN/NP cars.
On my Milwaukee Road 'Pecatonica Div' layout, I have a higher % of open hoppers(zinc mine tailings) and covered hoppers(zinc loading). I have no use for the small ore cars, even though the Milwaukee Road was deep into Lake Michigan iron ore mining. I have lots of 40' Box Cars - they were everywhere in rural agricultural areas. This 'mix' of freight car types and roaded really depends on the traffic you layout will be supporting.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
The mix is highly dependent on road, era and location.
The generic answer for steam era general freight operations is usually something along the lines of :
1/2 home, 1/4 interchange roads, 1/4 other.
Or
1/3 home, 1/3 interchange roads, 1/3 other.
I have researched the roads represented on a 1910 era midwestern road and those generally match.
The more open top equipment is involved, the more home road equipment is used. The more tank cars used, the more private equipment. If you are modeling the N&W in the coal mining regions you will mostly see home road hoppers.
For a modern road it is more like 1/2 private, 1/4 home and 1/4 other.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Here's my percentage of freight cars on my layout running a 18-20 car train. The railroad varies by UP, BNSF, CR, when in operation.
9-10 home cars, 5-6 private lines/leasing co. and 4 competitor cars.
You could use this ratio if you want too if you can't decide.
Amtrak America, 1971-Present.
Burlington Northern #24Since the GN and NP are considered home roads(as well as the Q since the GN "owned" them), would I have to reconsider the freight car fleet difference 85 to 15 percent in favor of the home roads or is that too much? with the 15% being dominated by neighbors UP, SP, and WP with the occasional eastern road car.
jrbernier The SP&S was a 'thief' in that they were many times short on cars. The owners(GN/NP) usually provided older equipment that they had replaced, or when they did allow them to order new cars - the numbers were small. One of the problems for railroads operating in the NW was car supply. Good cars that were suited for lumber loading often moved around in lumber diversion circles in the Midwest, waiting for a high bidder for the lumber. Some of the shipper specified routings were quite challenging. The net result was that the lumber car did not return as fast as a normal car. I am looking at a Jan 1951 ORER right now. The SP&S only owned 1774 box cars, 149 flat cars, and 100 gondolas(and a handfull of tank cars in 'company service'). Grabbing 'perspective empties' and loading them back via thier arriving service route is normal operation. Modeling the SP&S - you may need to change the usual balance of freight cars seen on a layout. The usual 'mix' is 50% home road, 25% direct connections, and 25% distant railroads or private owner(like reefer cars or tank cars). I would suspect the the SP&S would be heavy in cars that support forest products, and a high % of those direct connections would be GN/NP cars. On my Milwaukee Road 'Pecatonica Div' layout, I have a higher % of open hoppers(zinc mine tailings) and covered hoppers(zinc loading). I have no use for the small ore cars, even though the Milwaukee Road was deep into Lake Michigan iron ore mining. I have lots of 40' Box Cars - they were everywhere in rural agricultural areas. This 'mix' of freight car types and roaded really depends on the traffic you layout will be supporting. Jim
Jim, Thank you for that extra info. As I looked back over the photos GN and NP cars dominated the yards as I'm assuming the few SP&S cars out and about were almost always on the road. Thanks as well for the inputs on how to split up the cars.
I'm curious if the percentages would be similar if I'm approaching this like I currently am hoping to where the 4 hill lines merge on paper and locos disperse around the system. essentially an on paper BN, while the roads remain individual in appearance.
THanks for the input guys, so NP, GN, and anything not SP&S are foreign cars.
Burlington Northern #24THanks for the input guys, so NP, GN, and anything not SP&S are foreign cars
That's correct up until the BN merger..
Before Ike and the Trucking industry's Interstates rail was the only way to get manufactured goods from the East to the West and vice versa so,lots of Eastern road cars would be seen out West and vice versa..Even in the 60s I recall seeing SP&S boxcars with the large SP&S lettering and 50 years later they're still one of my favorite boxcars from that era.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
TZ,
Not all 40' box cars are 'equal'. Just because a NYC 40' car arrived at a SP&S customer, it did not mean it may be suited for lumber loading. What the mill is looking for is a good 'clean' class A boxcar. No broken sheathing on the inside, at least 10'6" interior height, and maybe even lumber loading doors on the ends. The Milw Rd built a lot of 'rib sides' cars with extra height and this small lumber loading doors on the ends. Many eastern box cars were built with a maximum of 10' interior height or less(bridge/tunnel clearence issues).
BTW, that power pool with the NYC/CB&Q used NYC GP40's. After the PC merger, the 'Q' would get just about anything that the PC could put in the consist. I once was on a train with an Alco C430(with high adhesion trucks). What a rough riding engine! Also, many of the older PC power had not had their pnuematic air lines standardized, and turning on the sanders on the lead unit may result in reverse sanding or just dumping all of the sand on one of the trailing units. The power pool was dropped in the late 60's and a new power pool with E-L power was set up - Much better power(SD45/GP35's....
BRAKIE Burlington Northern #24 THanks for the input guys, so NP, GN, and anything not SP&S are foreign cars That's correct up until the BN merger.. Before Ike and the Trucking industry's Interstates rail was the only way to get manufactured goods from the East to the West and vice versa so,lots of Eastern road cars would be seen out West and vice versa..Even in the 60s I recall seeing SP&S boxcars with the large SP&S lettering and 50 years later they're still one of my favorite boxcars from that era.
Burlington Northern #24 THanks for the input guys, so NP, GN, and anything not SP&S are foreign cars
jrbernierTZ, Not all 40' box cars are 'equal'. Just because a NYC 40' car arrived at a SP&S customer, it did not mean it may be suited for lumber loading. What the mill is looking for is a good 'clean' class A boxcar.
Not all 40' box cars are 'equal'. Just because a NYC 40' car arrived at a SP&S customer, it did not mean it may be suited for lumber loading. What the mill is looking for is a good 'clean' class A boxcar.
BTW, that power pool with the NYC/CB&Q used NYC GP40's.
P.S. Light Blub. Perhaps they weren't going south to home but going south to CF&I in Pueblo to be scrapped and melted down. Well that doesn't make sense either. Why wouldn't they have just gone to a steel mill in the east.
The ICC car service rules of the 1950's and 1960's affected the mix of cars on any of the railroads.
There were plenty of exceptions allowed, but in general, the origin road supplied the car, and the terminating road should send the car back via reverse route to the origin road. If a load was available for a car to be returned, it could be loaded prior to sending it back if the destination for that load was on the terminating road or one of the roads in the original route.
If GN or NP originated a load with a destination on the SP&S, the GN or NP freight car could be re-loaded for a destination on the GN or NP.
Cars used in food service had rules to make sure the cars were clean and suitable for hauling food. The exceptions to the rules were complex, and more than model railroaders need to know.
Heartland Division CB&Q The ICC car service rules of the 1950's and 1960's affected the mix of cars on any of the railroads. There were plenty of exceptions allowed, but in general, the origin road supplied the car, and the terminating road should send the car back via reverse route to the origin road. If a load was available for a car to be returned, it could be loaded prior to sending it back if the destination for that load was on the terminating road or one of the roads in the original route. If GN or NP originated a load with a destination on the SP&S, the GN or NP freight car could be re-loaded for a destination on the GN or NP. Cars used in food service had rules to make sure the cars were clean and suitable for hauling food. The exceptions to the rules were complex, and more than model railroaders need to know.
As well as north south/vice versa with PFE reefers?
Burlington Northern #24hmmmm, I'm curious about what or where an east coast car would pick up or drop something off out here.
Just about everything from Kellogg's cereal to cloth diapers.From TVs to washers.From whiskey to tires.From beer to sporting goods.
As far as picking up I suspect more cars returned empty then loaded.
Regardless of the ICC rule railroads did not play well with each other back then and this would come back to haunt them after the completion of the Interstates in the 60s and trucks took a very large chunk of the long distance hauls.
The sad part a load of Westinghouse washers from Mansfield,Ohio to Portland, Oregon could take up to six weeks whereas the Kellogg's cereal got there in less then three weeks.
Burlington Northern #24As well as north south/vice versa with PFE reefers?
PFE reefers and anything else that is private owned are not covered by the normal car service rules. PFE reefers(and NPR & WFEX) are considered 'private' ownership cars. They cannot be 'confiscated' like a box car. The owner controls the routing and return of these expensive cars.
Getting back to car service rules for'normal' freight cars: Let's say a SOU box car moves for the Carolinas with a load of furniture, to a point on the SP&S(North Vancourver). Once the car is unloaded and released by the consignee, the 'rule' state that the car should be returned loaded in the direction it came. If there is no load, it is returned 'MTY' via that reverse route. It can be captured along the way, and used for other routings, but the ICC car rules specify that it be routed back to 'home'. Of course a lot of 'perspective' MTY cars were captured and used for other purposes. In the early 60's, the car hire rates were very low, and the C&NW figured out it was cheaper to pay the daily charge to the owning road rather than make payments on a new car. There was an ICC investigation and the car hire rates were adjusted up.
jrbernierIf there is no load, it is returned 'MTY' via that reverse route.
Yes,we received the load order for Columbus,Ohio after we released NYC 456556 to interchange or whatever...
And that's exactly how many cars got routed back home empty..
As I mention there may have been a rule but,very little could be done to enforce it even if it meant holding a car order till the empty departed the yard-no rule stating you must recall that car.
Besides as every railroad man knew you got rid of foreign road cars as quickly as possible before your road started paying demurrage fees to the owning railroad for detention of their car..
Good point Larry! I was sort of 'sleep walking' at the computer this morning when I got up early. IIRC, the car hire cost was something like $6/car at Midnight for each car you kept on-line back in the 50's. If the car was something you could expect to get a load for in the next day or so, you hung onto it. The 'green eyeshade' folks in accounting kept track of the fees owed other railroads and would have a talk with the car distributor or yardmaster who ran up a high tab...
jrbernier In the early 60's, the car hire rates were very low, and the C&NW figured out it was cheaper to pay the daily charge to the owning road rather than make payments on a new car.
Texas Zepher jrbernier In the early 60's, the car hire rates were very low, and the C&NW figured out it was cheaper to pay the daily charge to the owning road rather than make payments on a new car. I wish I had access to my library to look up and relate a story related to this. The general theme was that the Santa Fe made a huge order of cars (box cars?) from some company back east. Instead of having the cars delivered in a block when they were built, they just released them into interchange off the assembly line. The story goes that it took something like 10 years for some of the cars to get to home rails.
I wish I had access to my library to look up and relate a story related to this. The general theme was that the Santa Fe made a huge order of cars (box cars?) from some company back east. Instead of having the cars delivered in a block when they were built, they just released them into interchange off the assembly line. The story goes that it took something like 10 years for some of the cars to get to home rails.
For cars to be off home rails for 10 years somebody was paying the demrrage fees or those cars was placed in pool service .
Kinda hard to believe cars was out for ten years in interchange especially since Santa Fe ordered cars to fill a need.
Hmmmm, I'll keep the H to F ratio in mind at the train show at the end of the month.
I was reading a bit more on SP&S cars, I guess at one point the AAR was on their case for owning too few boxcars.
Thanks for the input so far guys, It's a big help and very appreciated!
I also took a roster count I have 47 freight/MOW/CS cars, after non rev. cars are removed I'm at 30 freight cars, so my Rolling stock roster needs a big boost.
Another thing to keep in mind when considering ratios of home-road to foreign-road cars is how many can be utilised at one time. My layout occupies a room of about 560 sq.ft., and the industries currently modelled can acommodate just over 100 cars. Of course, most of those industrial tracks won't ever be full, while some will be empty much of the time, too. Some cars will be in staging and others in trains en route.I based my home-to-foreign ratio on what I saw in my hometown of Hamilton, Ontario. Served by CNR, CPR, TH&B, and NYC and with, for its size, a large industrial base, it was not unusual to see cars from all over North America - not every day and not all in one train, but they made frequent appearances. The ratio of home-to-foreign was stacked to home roads, naturally, but the frequent visitors kept raifanning interesting. It also opened my childhood vistas to what lay "beyond", and I later found my tastes in model rolling stock following that lead. With roughly 330 cars in service, about 140 are lettered for my free-lanced home roads, while the other 190 are for foreign roads. CNR, TH&B, and CPR predominate there, but NYC and Pennsy are well-represented, as are many northeastern American roads. Also included are examples from the midwest, west coast, southwest, and southern states, not to mention Mexico. This allows me to run all of those interesting road names interspersed among the more normally seen cars. I enjoy building and modifying freight cars, so this type of operating scheme allows them to be used, yet not appear in numbers that overpower the home road or its interchange partners.
Burlington Northern #24....I also took a roster count I have 47 freight/MOW/CS cars, after non rev. cars are removed I'm at 30 freight cars, so my Rolling stock roster needs a big boost.
Based on the discussion so far, Gary, it sounds as if you'll need more foreign cars than SP&S ones, with the majority of them, as Jim says, "thieved" from other roads. I can't imagine that there are a lot of SP&S cars readily available, and there's no longer a lot in the way of decals or dry transfers to letter your own. C-D-S alone used to offer five different sets for SP&S boxcars.
Wayne
I can imagine that I'll need plenty of GN and NP cars, seeing as how NP and GN were always getting "Frequent flyer miles" on the SP&S. It'll be in favor of the GN because of the OT traffic, I will also have Q represented. May add UP units but, there will be plenty of foreign cars.
An author in MR from the 80s or so suggested 80% home road and 20% other iirc. I find that ratio more useful with a smaller (whatever that means) amount of rolling stock, but it does help show an identity for the railroad. I like varied rolling stock, so don't always stick to the above recommendation.
Friends,
I have a note on my first rough sketch of my layout that says the percentage of foreign-road cars has far less to do with regional proximity and far more to do with the (economic and physical) size of the railroad. I suspect I read that somewhere in these pages of discussion, though it may have come from, say, Armstrong's track planning classic. For me, one of the subtle ways to convey the identity of my little branch line is by sticking to lots of home-road rolling stock. But as others have commented, there are plenty of good reasons to mix in lots of foreigners.
Vintage videos are a great way to see some period consists. The limitations of the cameras are the main reason for limited footage. Those who were trackside often had short reels and conserved shots. My ratio is about: 50% home road, 30 to 40% connecting roads and 10 to 20% for distant lines. I have seen the far flung cars, near the caboose on many old films, and trackside in the past. That is for general freight traffic. YMMV.
Also, if you ever saw transfer trains, the ratios can go out the window. Indiana Harbor Belt and Belt Railway were prime examples around Chicago, back in the day. Anything could pass you. Miss the 70's.
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William