Lionel 4 6 6 4 Challenger

[Anonymous]

Hi everyone. I know this topic hs been beat the death.......but I am looking for poeples' opnions as to the running quality.......sound quality of the the Lionel Challenger. Also....how is it on regular DC as far as sound goes? Can you only control one function at a time? Or can you have multiple sounds at the same time?

Please be brutally honest and as specific as possible as I am thinking about purchasing a unit.

Thank you. Appreciate it.

Jim

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainschnick74

Hi everyone. I know this topic hs been beat the death.......but I am looking for poeples' opnions as to the running quality.......sound quality of the the Lionel Challenger. Also....how is it on regular DC as far as sound goes? Can you only control one function at a time? Or can you have multiple sounds at the same time?

Please be brutally honest and as specific as possible as I am thinking about purchasing a unit.

Thank you. Appreciate it.

Jim

Jim
The sound is multi channel and is good. You can blow the whistle and hear the bell at the same time, unlike the Trix sound. The chuffing sound is great and the sound simulates the in and out of sync sounds like that of an articulated engine.
Some of the problems from my point of view are: Poor detail, poor to fair running qualities, incorrect detail and the weight of the tender prevents the engine from pulling many cars.

The tender weight can be reduced by removing the lead weight in the tender floor, but the cast tender still is to heavy. It could be fixed by replacing the shell with a RIV or maybe one of the new Athearn shells. The tender shell has a vertical line running down each side that looks like a pipe instead of the row of rivets that should be there. That is the most detracting feature about the tender.

I am aware of several of these engines in my area and all have been poor runners when they were new. My front headlight never worked and the number board lights are done poorly.
The actual detail of the engine is fair to average for tinplate type, but the overall running qualities make the engine just acceptable. However, my thought is the Lionel Challenger will be worth the money at 250 or so like some of the dealers are quoting. I just read the engine is being offered for 199. At this price, it is worth the money for the sound and basic engine.

One more article you should read is located on Tony's Train Web site. It is a good article about the tender weight problem and how to solve it. I would recommend reading that article also.

I hope this input helps.

[cacole]

Contrary to bangert1's opinion, I think the detail on the model is excellent, and it runs very smoothly. Perhaps there has been more than one version released, because mine is definitely not tinplate. The headlight, number boards, firebox, and rear tender light all work, and I have had no problems with the running qualities after it was properly broken in. Running it on DCC instead of DC may account for the difference.

Be sure to lubricate it according to the instructions in the packaging, because most locomotives made in China are not lubricated at the factory. My Challenger started squeaking and slowed down after a short period of running, and I had to take it off the track and lubricate it. This applies also to Athearn Genesis and Broadway Limited models.

Traction was initially a big problem with the Lionel Challenger. Right out of the box, it would not pull more than 4 or 5 pieces of rolling stock up a 2 percent grade without wheel slippage. Some type of very slick plating had been put on the drivers, and this had to be worn off before traction improved. Now, it can pull 25 loaded and weighted double-stack container cars or 36 loaded ore cars and caboose up a 2 percent grade with no wheel slippage. Because it is cast metal, it pulls much better than a plastic model.

I agree that the tender is way too heavy and puts quite a drag on the locomotive. It would pull much better if Lionel had used a plastic tender shell instead of metal. There is a weight in the tender that can be removed, but this has minimal impact on the overall weight.

The sound effects on DCC are excellent, as with all other models that use the QSI system. The volume had to be tweaked on the steam whistle, though, to get it to sound less harsh. The Challengers had a steam whistle that seems to be difficult to duplicate without sounding bad, and if the volume is left at the factory setting it is too shrill and tinny.

Tony's Train Exhchange (http://www.tonystrains.com) posted information when the Lionel Challenger was first released, on Configuration Variable settings to get the whistle to sound better. This only applies if you are using DCC, though.

I have never tried my Challenger on straight DC, and can't answer your questions about that.

[Anonymous]

Hey thanks for the fast reply guys...what I was wondering in particular is.........

I have a BLI 2 6 6 4 and I am wondering how the Lionel compares as far as detail, sound and running. Is the start voltage high just like the BLI?

Thanks again..and sorry to be a bother.

Jim

[rexhea]

Just received email from Internet Trains: Lionel Challenger $199.98---UP-----D&RGW

[Anonymous]

for those shopping InternetTrains is down to the coal burning 3989. the rest have sold out in the last 2 hours.

[rexhea]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jjwest870

for those shopping InternetTrains is down to the coal burning 3989. the rest have sold out in the last 2 hours.

The 3989 inventory is now minus one. [:D][:D]

I don't know why I did it. I don't even run UP. Guess I'll have to use my modeler's license [;)].

REX

[Anonymous]

So does anyone know if any other companies are or will be offering these at the savings? Or is it.com the only place?

Jim

[Anonymous]

It's so cheap I may get one for the heck of it. It'd look good with my Athearn 3985......

[Anonymous]

According to the Atlas forum, internettrains is S O L D O U T!
Now all they have to do is F I L L all those orders.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainschnick74

Hey thanks for the fast reply guys...what I was wondering in particular is.........

I have a BLI 2 6 6 4 and I am wondering how the Lionel compares as far as detail, sound and running. Is the start voltage high just like the BLI?

Thanks again..and sorry to be a bother.

Jim

JIm

I have both the Lionel Challenger and the BLI N&W A. They are comparable, but I believe the BLI engine is better, both in running and detail.

The Lionel certainly is a bargain at the prices they are going for now. When I first heard 239, I thought that was a bargain, but now 199. WOW!!! I did manage to get a Turbine for 199, but that might be high tomorrow.

I have tenshodo, Overland and Key Challengers also so my comments might not reflect the money spent on the Lionel product.

I certainly realize that my engine might have been the exception to the quality rule and the Lionel engine that Cacole received is much better than mine. The sound is good and the electronics in the engine makes it a bargain now. I also know that Lionel in general had trouble selling them at full price or discounted price and with their present problems, they decided to dump them. I like the Lionel engine in general even with what I consider faults.

I have seen the Athearn Challengers at a Train show, and I hope they run half as good as they look.

Enjoy the engine and let us know how you like it.

[Anonymous]

Thank you for your kind reply.....but I can't tell you how I will like it........I havn't ordered it yet...and as I see most places have sold out. I guess I will have to wait for the second release. Oh well. Nothing gained...nothing lost. But with all i'm hearing.I may not order it even at such a low price. Guess I'll have to get someone to give it to me as a present for X mas. ( Leans over to girlfriend and nudges her arm ).

Jim

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainschnick74

Thank you for your kind reply.....but I can't tell you how I will like it........I havn't ordered it yet...and as I see most places have sold out. I guess I will have to wait for the second release. Oh well. Nothing gained...nothing lost. But with all i'm hearing.I may not order it even at such a low price. Guess I'll have to get someone to give it to me as a present for X mas. ( Leans over to girlfriend and nudges her arm ).

Jim

Jim
Just because some are sold out, I am sure not all the engines are gone. It has only been one day and I know of at least two dealers where they can be purchased for the 239 price. I only heard of Internet Trains offering them for 199, but most are probably gone by now. Check Ebay also since many dealers use Ebay.

[Anonymous]

$288.00 on ebay

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainschnick74

Thank you for your kind reply.....but I can't tell you how I will like it........I havn't ordered it yet...and as I see most places have sold out. I guess I will have to wait for the second release. Oh well. Nothing gained...nothing lost. But with all i'm hearing.I may not order it even at such a low price. Guess I'll have to get someone to give it to me as a present for X mas. ( Leans over to girlfriend and nudges her arm ).

Jim

Jim

A dealer just emailed me that with prices of 249 for the Lionel Challenger and he still has a few.

Try this WEB site http://www.discounthobbywarehouse.net/

This is the Discount Hobby Warehouse Site in Illinois.

[Anonymous]

The Lionel Challenger is a true bargain at anything less than $300. Isn't the list price $699?

I have two of Key's Challengers that were built by Samhongsa and the Lionel sitting next to these looks pretty nice for 1/4th the price. Fit and finish and running qualities are first rate. While some feel the tender is too heavy I like the ruggedness and weight of both the engine and tender. I doubt that another opportunity will come along at this price for an engine that is this well built.

.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bangert1

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainschnick74



Jim

Jim

A dealer just emailed me that with prices of 249 for the Lionel Challenger and he still has a few.

Try this WEB site http://www.discounthobbywarehouse.net/

This is the Discount Hobby Warehouse Site in Illinois.

Really surprised that a place like a Decatur could beat out Trainworld and more surprised to find a Huntley at 12.5% lower on the P2K Berks.

[cacole]

Lionel has announded that they are pulling out of the HO market, so there will be no "second run" of the Challenger. The reason for this is supposedly two-fold: the Challenger didn't sell as well as Lionel anticipated, and the lawsuit they lost to MTH. Athearn's entry into the Challenger market may also have had something to do with their decision. Shortly after the courts ruled against Lionel and awarded MTH $40 million in damages, a new CEO was chosen by Lionel Corporation, and that may have something to do with it, too.

[Anonymous]

My mistake...I meant another delivery of the Challengers from Lionel....Not another production run.

Jim

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cacole

Lionel has announded that they are pulling out of the HO market, so there will be no "second run" of the Challenger. The reason for this is supposedly two-fold: the Challenger didn't sell as well as Lionel anticipated, and the lawsuit they lost to MTH. Athearn's entry into the Challenger market may also have had something to do with their decision. Shortly after the courts ruled against Lionel and awarded MTH $40 million in damages, a new CEO was chosen by Lionel Corporation, and that may have something to do with it, too.

Those SOBs ruined Lionels 3rd HO attempt! Arrrrggggggg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!]

[twhite]

Yah, Bo--I'm with you on Lionel bowing out of HO, I was hoping to see some product from them. NOW, it probably means that MTH will come out with a UP Challenger to duplicate Genesis after their K-4 to duplicate BLI and we'll all be in this same forum again this time next year with ANOTHER plethora of duplicated steam. Wanna bet?
Tom

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by twhite

Yah, Bo--I'm with you on Lionel bowing out of HO, I was hoping to see some product from them. NOW, it probably means that MTH will come out with a UP Challenger to duplicate Genesis after their K-4 to duplicate BLI and we'll all be in this same forum again this time next year with ANOTHER plethora of duplicated steam. Wanna bet?
Tom

Tom
I agree with you and Bo-- on Lionel's decision to leave our market area, but we should learn form this and see if we can help decide on what model the remaining importers decide to build. MTH might listen to our email, since they have imported some very interesting models in their larger scale past. At least one Subject line in this forum has been about the fact MTH is entering the HO market, but maybe they will listen, since we have a voice nationwide for what we want.

We should all start emailing BLI, MTH and all of the new import companies to tell them what we want. They always want to play it safe and sell something that has sold before, but if we request what we would buy, (most anything I guess), some of the new guys out there should respond with a product we really want.

A NP Z8 and a NP Z6 would be nice since the Z 6 is just a few details and a different tender away in detail from the Z8. The SP&S also had copies of each. One example.

It would make sense that a DM&IR running gear is close to the EM1 B&O, since they were cousins. The tender details and boiler shells are not related, but one chassis could save a lot of money. We have accepted 64” drivers instead of 69” on the Berkshire for quite some time, except in brass. The Trix Big Boy has 64” drivers instead of 68”, but the look of the engine is still great, and the overall dimensions are close, compared to the Tenshodo Big Boy which is three scale feet too long.

The big three steam builders built copies of previous engines during the war to save on money and to expedite the process. Some of these engines have distinct details to give the look of the road, but many of the items are fairly close.

One such example just came in from BLI, the real PRR J1 having been copied from the C&O T1, allowed BLI to use many of the drive parts to build both engines. There are many more examples of steam locomotives to be built, so I believe we should email all of our favorite importers, and say,

Another good example is the Proto Berkshire, which all use the same basic running gear and vary only on the detail of the tenders, cabs and boiler shells.

IF YOU BUILD IT (correctly), WE WILL BUY IT !!!!


I know we have taken polls many times, but this time, if you actually email one of the importers, put in on this web page or start one for this purpose so we can see what you really want and would buy.

I have already made my selection by naming the Z8’s, but would buy most others if they are done well.

[twhite]

Bangert1--GREAT post! If you ever decide to run for something, let me know so that I can vote for you! Back when I was a young'un, AKANE put out both the EM-1 and the Missabe in brass. You're right. Identical chassis. Different boiler and tender. Every new loco doesn't necessarily mean complete re-tooling everything. Myself, I'm going to sit down and compose a letter to BLI about some of the things I'd like to see- and I know they're things you'd like to see, from reading your posts--and maybe if enough of us do that, we'll get some action. Z-6 or 8, honestly I don't care, they're both handsome, I'll take one of each, thank you.
Tom

[Anonymous]

I will never purchase anything that MTH puts out regardless of how it looks or runs. $40,000,000 against another hobby manufacturer (Lionel) forcing them out of HO is a disgrace and a detriment to the hobby. It seems dubious whether their claim is actually valid, but that is our legal system!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by phillyhorn

I will never purchase anything that MTH puts out regardless of how it looks or runs. $40,000,000 against another hobby manufacturer (Lionel) forcing them out of HO is a disgrace and a detriment to the hobby. It seems dubious whether their claim is actually valid, but that is our legal system!

Remember, our legal system also allows appeals, and Lionel will surely appeal the Judgement against them. It would not be unusual for the judgement to be lowered or set aside after the appeal. It is not in the interest of good busines and future tax revenue to put Lionel out of business.
Besides, Neil Young could always go on the road and raise more money by singing.

Anyone out there going to buy the MTH K4???? They might be stuck with a few thousand of their first engines and have to sell them for a low price.

I understand the big # 1 Scale is not selling too well.

[Anonymous]

train land in lynbrook NY still have some.challenger 225 veranda 189