Las t night, I pulled out of "mothballs" my original-issue Proto 2000 "Heritage" N&W (HO) Y3 2-8-8-2. I had shelved it several years ago, in favor of several sound-equipped locos that took my attention. After rolling this one out of it's dust-covered corner staging track, I began to realize the quality, detail, and FLAWLESS running characteristics of this marvelous engine! I bought this jewel when it first came out (I'm thinking around 1996?). I have developed a new-found appreciation for it's "AUSTRIAN workmanship"! (yes, Austria). This thing was as near "perfect" as I had ever seen at the time, and I realize now that IT STILL IS! The unique design (at the time?) of it's tender drawbar that "extends" in curves works flawlessly, and it allows this loco to "snake" it's way thru the tightest turns and switches with ease, and looks good doing it, with no exceesive overhang, and keeping the tender visually "close-coupled" at all times. While some of my original Paragon (Korea) BLI locomotives are "close" in quality and performance, but seemingly "not quite". I believe this engine may have been the "standard" of high-quality in it's day that others aspired to, or SHOULD'VE. Do any of you, who were "fortunate" enough to get one of these "originals", feel the same way? Has CHINESE manufacture pretty much "thrown a wrench" into the expectation of "really high quality"?
Mike C.
wobblinwheelI bought this jewel when it first came out (I'm thinking around 1996?).
I don't even think Life-Like's Proto 2000 line came out until the late 90s/early 2000s. Seems to me that the Y3 were released in the mid-2000s?
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Does yours really say Proto-2000 Heritage. I thought mine just said Proto-Heritage.
I have two of those 2-8-8-2s and five of the 0-8-0 from the Proto-Heritage line of locomotives. I even have two of the matching Proto display cases (where one of the 0-8-0s lives).
I found the 0-8-0s to be highly unreliable because of power pick up problems (which they fixed with the 0-6-0 and I was just getting ready to order the parts to apply that fix to the 0-8-0s when Walther's took over and "lost" - their word not mine - all those parts).
A 2-8-8-2 was taken to an operating session at a friends house. As wobblinwheel says it ran flawlessly, but I was unable to make it get 20 reefer cars up a straight 1.5% grade. I had to back it down to the yard and lessen the load to 12(?) cars. sigh. After that I wasn't too much interested in it. It has been in its box so long I do not remember if it had traction tires that I could have installed or not. Now, I might have to scare one of them up and give it another try.
tstageI don't even think Life-Like's Proto 2000 line came out until the late 90s/early 2000s.
Tom,The P2K diesel line came out in the late 80's with a P2K Eastern style caboose with interior and then their BL2.
Not sure on the P2K steam line was release though.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Thanks for the correction, Larry.
Texas ZepherI found the 0-8-0s to be highly unreliable because of power pick up problems (which they fixed with the 0-6-0...
TZ,
I'm wondering whether all of your 0-8-0s are 1st-runs. With the 2nd-run Life-Like added all-wheel pick to the tender. (I have two of them and they run flawless and have never stalled on a turnout.) By the time the 0-6-0s were released, Life-Like (Walthers?) had learned their lesson and they had all-wheel pickup, as well.
I came up with "1996" from a date shown on the paperwork that came with the engine. I moved into my current home in 2000. I purchased this loco at least a few years before moving. I know this because my apartment was too small to even have a layout when I first bought it! I ran it on an oval of Bachmann "EZ track" on my dining room table. I now have a 15x15 room with a perimeter mainline with a service facility in the middle. Happy! Happy! While my current layout is "flat", the 2-8-8-2 pulls pretty good. As good as any non-tire equipped loco I have. I'm not overly crazy about traction tires, anyway. My BLI Class A, I believe, will pull more cars than I will EVER OWN. While that is nice, right now not necessary. The Proto is just a pleasure to run, a really good switcher, also.
Proto put out two 2-8-8-2's, their 'original' USRA, which was a Y-3 and not an actual USRA, and then later, a 'real' USRA 2-8-8-2. I bought both. The Y-3, as the OP stated, was a beautiful locomotive, nicely detailed and a smooth and very quiet runner. However, it was not very much of a hauler on grades--in fact it was only capable of around 12 cars up my 2% grades, and that's counting fairly generous curves of 36" radius. Later on, when Proto came out with their 'real' USRA 2-8-8-2 (front-hung air pumps), I bought one of their Rio Grande 3500 series, which turned out to be everything the Y-3 was as far as running characteristics and detail, but with the added plus of being a much more powerful hauler. Perhaps Proto learned something in the interim. I only run the Y-3 in helper service, but run in tandem with the 3500, they do make for an impressive pair of locomotives. I wouldn't mind seeing Proto re-run both models again at all.
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
I dug out the paperwork for my Item#23333 2-8-8-2 that I purchased on Mar. 27, 2000 and paid list price of $375 (that's $510 today!)
I still run it occasionally. This was the first locomotive that I installed the "new" Tsunami sound decoder in and I was really impressed with Tsunami and a nice, big 25 x 38mm speaker could fit under the coal load. I don't recall any pulling issues but I'll have to fire her up again tomorrow and strech her legs!
Remembering Life-Like in the late 1970s, who would have ever guessed that they would be regarded as the one to "raise the bar" but I'll bet nearly half my roster is P2k and there is hardly a dud (well, there were those HI AMP PA-1s!) in the bunch. Even the Proto 1000 line had some fine runners.
[edit: Post Script: Several years ago I picked up a BLI auxiliary water tender that really makes the Y-3 look even more massive. That got me to thinking about boosting the tractive effort. I wonder if a drive system could be hidden in there? No one would be the wiser and it should at least double the drawbar pull!]
Good day to all, Ed
Since this is a 2 8 8 2, it should not be a problem adding Bullfrog snot to a few drivers.
Ed,
My 2-8-8-2 runs great on DC. I installed the Tsunami TSU 1000 and have nothing but trouble. Runs slow, decoder gets hot. Followed all the instructions Even changed the decoder. All my other DCC locos work fine. Help!!
Bob
Similar thing happend to me earilier this year. I have 2 original mallets with a little body damage. 1 has a burn out motor. niether has ran in a decade. I pulled them both out of long storage, dusted them off. The unit with the functioning motor ran dead silent, smooth. It was refreshing to see... I plan on refurbishing both and restoring to their former glory! No DCC in them, doesnt matter cause Im an analog guy.
I give up on the DCC effort. I have three of these locomotives and they all work fine on DC. My attempts with Tsunami and Bachmann decoders are futile. Decoders get hot and eventually stop. Does anyone have continuous, reliable service with decoders in these Locos? I have handled one so much that I have damaged valve gear. Is there repair/parts source for the pins etc?
Wonder if it would help to put the decoder in the tender??
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
Tom--
Multiple corrections:
The N&W Class Y-3 numbers 2-8-8-2's 2000 to 2049 are all Original built new under USRA control USRA 2-8-8-2's. The model reflects the typical N&W 1930's appearance with Worthington BL-2 feedwater heater.
The other Proto model actually represents some USRA COPY engines including Rio Grande Class L-107, which was built much later, after USRA control had ended. Ditto the NP copies. Clinchfield received 10 USRA ORIGINALS, and Virginian 20 originals, plus more third hand, late. So identifying correct features of the models is not as simple as one might expect.
However, N&W received the lion's share of original USRA 2-8-8-2's, and ALL the ones later owned by PRR, ATSF, UP were the N&W rebuilt 1930's versions of the Y-3. UP also received a number of C&O H-7 simple versions, a completely different animal.
I respectfully refer anyone reading this post to Eugene Huddleston's excellent book "Uncle Sam's Locomotives" for a much more complete history of all USRA steam engines.
Also, the USRA 2-8-8-2 was based on the blueprints provided BY N&W of the Y-2a Class.
John
Total constructed of 106 originals at steamlocomotive.com should be 80, if I recall correctly from the book referenced above.
wobblinwheel Las t night, I pulled out of "mothballs" my original-issue Proto 2000 "Heritage" N&W (HO) Y3 2-8-8-2. I had shelved it several years ago, in favor of several sound-equipped locos that took my attention. After rolling this one out of it's dust-covered corner staging track, I began to realize the quality, detail, and FLAWLESS running characteristics of this marvelous engine! I bought this jewel when it first came out (I'm thinking around 1996?). I have developed a new-found appreciation for it's "AUSTRIAN workmanship"! (yes, Austria). This thing was as near "perfect" as I had ever seen at the time, and I realize now that IT STILL IS!
Las t night, I pulled out of "mothballs" my original-issue Proto 2000 "Heritage" N&W (HO) Y3 2-8-8-2. I had shelved it several years ago, in favor of several sound-equipped locos that took my attention. After rolling this one out of it's dust-covered corner staging track, I began to realize the quality, detail, and FLAWLESS running characteristics of this marvelous engine! I bought this jewel when it first came out (I'm thinking around 1996?). I have developed a new-found appreciation for it's "AUSTRIAN workmanship"! (yes, Austria). This thing was as near "perfect" as I had ever seen at the time, and I realize now that IT STILL IS!
Two questions?
1) Wasn't it Roco that was the builder from Austria?
2) Did Proto 2K build 2 models of the 2-8-8-2 wheel arrangment? We know absolutely they built the Y3 version. Did they build a Y6 version?
ThumperER9VCB Ed, My 2-8-8-2 runs great on DC. I installed the Tsunami TSU 1000 and have nothing but trouble. Runs slow, decoder gets hot. Followed all the instructions Even changed the decoder. All my other DCC locos work fine. Help!! Bob
I installed a Loksound Select 6Aux in the tender with dual 1.1" HiBass speakers. It works very nicely.
More info below:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/261771.aspx
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
LifeLike Proto 2000 series models ONLY included the "USRA" version and the "N&W Y-3" version. They never produced a model of an (N&W) Y-4, Y-5, Y-6, or any of the subclasses of those models. Only Rivarossi and BLI have done the Y-6B in plastic or diecast. Other versions including class Y-3a (30 N&W USRA copies with upgrades), and classes Y-4 through Y-6a, were done by several importers in brass, and tend to be expensive when even available.
The Y-6B is very different from the "USRA" or "N&W Class Y-3" (1930's upgraded original USRA) versions. The Y-6B had nearly 30 years of continuous improvements built into them, and much of the neat exposed piping that is visible on the USRA engines was hidden under the boiler jacketing of the Y-5 and Y-6 series engines. So there is no real comparison between the 1918 design USRA versions, or the 1930's upgraded version, and the later class Y-6 versions which were built around or after 1948.
They only share basic dimensions. Tenders are completely different from the ground up.
That's what I thought, but I have seen many numbers of internet sites that bring up Y6b as a Proto 2K engine also. So I thought it was a mistake. Thanks for clarification.
No worries.
Yes, be very very careful of what you read about trains on the internet, or even in Morning Sun Books.
For instance, Lloyd Stagner enjoys a great reputation as a "steam authority" because he was there during the last years of steam. However, when he quotes steam locomotive horsepower and/or tractive effort data, in several books published by Morning Sun (the Santa Fe In Color Series, Volumes 1 through 4), he consistently gets the data incorrect. Perhaps he was remembering differently, but a thorough check of his "original sources", including S. Kip Farrington's "The Santa Fe's Big Three" reveals the errors that are prevalent throughout the Morning Sun Books series. S. Kip Farrington had money and connections, and was physically there when the three ultimate series of Santa Fe steam engines were actually tested with a dynamometer car behind them, recording actual drawbar horsepower, which in the case of the 2-10-4's built after Madame Queen, was quite astounding. Stagner tends to under-report the actual horsepower figures of Santa Fe 4-8-4's and 2-10-4's. Mr. Farrington published the actual test data in his book, which offers a very rare glimpse into real world steam locomotive testing, though it can be a bit dry. Because Mr. Stagner and others subsequently under-reported some of the data, people today tend to overlook the accomplishments of the Santa Fe steam designers on those final classes of steam power. Authors tend to publish tractive effort of Madame Queen...when the later engines were much better in horsepower at high freight train speed.
Many people, who can tell you all about diesel phases and sub-phases, tend to think that "all steam engines look alike" and so they think a Y-3 is a Y-6b, when they were very different animals. (Y-6B had about 65% more starting tractive effort, which is huge).
On the internet, people rarely check the facts.
As Deniro says in "Meet the Parents", trust but verify, lol.
I have one of the first-run Precision Craft Models die-cast Y6b versions. I have to say, it's one of the absolute BEST running HO scale engines I've ever experienced! The Loksound decoder provides the most superior motor control over everything I've seen so far. However, the sound (factory programmed) left a LOT to be desired...the whistle was terrible, the chuff was off, and the "brake-squeal" was ridiculous. A few years ago, I sent the decoder off to a guy I found online that had the software/hardware to re-program the Loksound decoder. Believe it or not, I found some much more accurate sound samples for BRITISH locomotives on the ESU website for compound, Mallet locomotives, and some British locomotive whistles that sounded really good. After a few weeks, and constant email conversations, I have what I believe to be a very UNIQUE locomotive! I now have a total of THREE British whistles that all sound like different versions of the N&W "Hooter" whistle. I also have a "chuff" that actually starts out with a "simple-articulated" double-chuff, then switches to the single "compound" chuff after a few seconds of running. I now have a "dynamo" sound that comes on with the headlight, and STAYS on, and a squealing brake that sounds excellent! I think he charged me about $25.00 for all this! Now this is a FUN loco to run, and it has extreme pulling-power with NO traction tires! HOWEVER (back to the original topic) I still believe the old Proto "Heritage" Y3 (USRA?) beats it hands-down on detail....after airbrushing some weathering on the Proto, no matter what angle you look at it, it's as "real" looking as any model can get! It is my "go-to" switcher on my switch-infested staging yard, and snakes it's way through all of the turn-outs with ease......
PRR8259, when you say "Madame Queen", what are you talking about?
My LL Proto 2-8-8-2 was (unfortunately) one of the ones in the run with the bad motors that eventually smoked itself out (literally). I replaced the motor with the large can motor from Micro-Mark. I had to cut the shaft on each side short a bit so I could use the LL flywheel / connectors. Otherwise, wasn't too difficult - very sensible design, easy to disassemble and reassemble.
I plugged a TCS sound decoder with a 1" speaker and enclosure in the 8-pin receptacle in the tender. It doesn't have holes in the tender for a speaker, but I faced the speaker forward towards the openings around the drawbar, and it seems to work fine.
Mike,
Just gotta say that I pretty much agree with your assessment of this loco. I bought one in the early 2000's and it was a great creeping loco, very smooth, with excellent detail. I put a lenz decoder in it and it was flawless. I eventually sold mine after I couldn't justify it on my west coast based layout. I also had an 0-8-0 with out the extra power pick - up Great runner (when it had contact) and great detail.
Proto 2K really raised the bar for steam with these models. I consider them to be the standard by which all others should be judged in terms of running abilities (not pulling power) and detail/price point.
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
So it appears as no one has found a way to make the Proto Y3 a better puller??
Sound out the coal load
I have a number of these Proto 2-8-8-2 with some different sound decoders in them. And most of them had the sound directed out the coal load are. I was NOT impressed ! (Now I must admit that I did not operated them over sizable distances as I did not have DCC set up on my previous layout).
In general I thought the sound exiting the bottom of the tender (or loco) was better as it as able to bounce off the roadbed.
With that in mind I went looking for methods to put sound in my Alleghenys and a C&O H7 that I was hoping to kitbash with a Vandy tender behind it. Here are a few configurations that I thought I would try out for that vandy tender,....a sizable oval base reflex speaker firing down thru relief holes in the bottom, and concurrently a circulat hi-bass round speaker firing towards the front of the tender into the engineers cab.
http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?27672-Adapt-Bachmann-Vandy-Tenders-to-Run-Behind-Other-Engines/page3
Now why do I want it to fire that smaller round speaker in a forward direction? Have a look here Originally Posted by railandsail As I re-read this PDF document several times I became aware of a possible speaker installation that was not covered in this document....excerpt: "Separate back wave from front wave: It is important for sound quality that the inside cab area be sealed as much as possible to prevent the back wave from escaping through grills, vents, fans or other openings in the diesel or electric locomotive cab or through the openings in the chassis where the motors connect to the trucks. If there is any leakage of the back-wave to the outside, it will mix with the speaker front-wave and cause destructive inference in some base tones and perhaps constructive interference for some of the higher frequency tones. The respective path lengths for the front-wave and the escaping back-wave and the position of the listener will determine which frequency components are degraded or changed. Usually, since the acoustic chamber and path lengths are short, any back wave escaping from the locomotive causes degradation of the sound. If the back wave is allowed to escape close to the front-wave, the degradation is more severe. As the scale of the model decreases, this becomes more of a problem since the distances between front and back waves become smaller. Vent the front-wave sound under the locomotive: Propagating sound upward into the open air seems to produce lower quality sound unless you are directly over the speaker. The sound has no opportunity to reflect against different parts of the layout such as buildings, mountains, etc. that add both volume and presence. Our experience is that the best design choice is to propagate the sound under the locomotive. The next best choice is out the sides of the locomotive through vents and grills. If sound is vented under the locomotive, always be aware of the affect of trucks and other obstacles and other factors that can either improve or degrade sound quality. Do not vent sound straight down too close to the track where it can be reflected back and decrease volume and sound quality. Venting the sound directly under the fuel tank usually does not produce good sound in smaller gauges (HO and N) since there is little space between the bottom of the fuel tank where the sound is vented, and the top of the track. Sound usually reflects back from the track resulting in poor volume and presence. Venting through the gear tower and chassis over the open truck areas seems to produce the best sound." What I find interesting here is no mention of venting the 'front-wave' from the front of the tender, verses out the bottom, or out the coal load?? Why does this interest me? I have at least 4 locos with vandy tenders (C&O) that I wish to install sound into. He covers vandy tenders to some considerable degree, but does not mention this possibility. I happen to have a friend who has a relatively cheap little IHC steamer that has its sound vented out the front bulkhead of the tender right into the cab area of the loco....the sound is GREAT. On the other hand I have a 2-8-8-2 with the sound vented out the coal load that I consider substandard. So I am giving real serious consideration to experimenting with one of my Spectrum C&O Heavy Mountains with their vandy tenders and venting the sound forward out of the tender.
wobblinwheel PRR8259, when you say "Madame Queen", what are you talking about?
Madame Queen is Santa Fe 5000, which survives, their first 2-10-4 designed as a 2-10-4 from the ground up. While it had high starting tractive effort, the later 5001 class and 5011 class engines, though similar, offered much more horsepower at speed, which has generally been under-reported...something like 5600 drawbar horsepower at about 40 or 45 mph, which puts them in an elite group Of non-articulateds indeed.
My point was just check original sources whenever possible. Even though steamlocomotive.com is constantly updating their online database, they do not have everything totally "gospel" correct. There are some conflicting sources, too, which confuse steam historians all these years later.
For instance steamlocomotive.com lists 106 original USRA 2-8-8-2's but their listings only account for 80. The Rio Grande L-107 class, and I am pretty sure NP 4500 to 4503, were copies and not originals, and that still only gets one to 94 even if you count those copies, so there are still online discrepancies.
My Proto locomotive is N&W #2019. It does NOT have the "Y" pipe between the front cylinders. Is it a Y3, or a USRA engine?
I forgot to include a photo of how that sound was to get out the front of the tender. Just so happens I already have one sound opening in the front of this tender where drawbar goes. I'm thinking I may supply several other sound relief holds in the upper portion of the front of the tender,...perhaps those triangular shaped objects on the coal doors.