This is an old thread on a common topic. I have been researching this topic through a test series over the last year. There are over 200 HO engine tests documented on the page linked at the bottom of this post. I have been taking a bunch of data. So far I have had trouble measuring smooth.
For best and most consistent performance, Anything Kato based and Atlas China would be my top two. I haven't covered the entire spectrum, so I can not comment on some.
Larry
www.llxlocomotives.com
So many trains, so little time,
First I should state that my hobby budget is limited (I have analog DC) with that said, I have tried a number of differnt brands which I found at clearence sales at modeltrainstuff.com. I have found for reliability, smooth running and easy maintenance, I like the Atlas Trainman line. I have two SP RS32s for several years now and they run great and look great. I also have two D&H GP39s which also run and look great. I love the ease of removing the shell from the GP-39 by simply removing the couplers and it simply lifts right off! I also have some Walther's Mainline locos (RS-2 and EMD SW1s) which look and run great and even a recent Athearn Chessie GP40-2 which also is great. But like I said, I like the Trainman best, I just wish Atlas would expand their offerings a bit.
Who makes the best locomotives? Based on my own opinion and experience.
The most reliable and trouble free loco:
Athearn Genesis
Kato
Atlas
Bowser
Proto
Stewart
Rapido
The most correct (paint scheme, details) loco:
Kato / Intermountain
Atlas / Bachman / Proto
The least reliable loco:
Walthers Train line
Intermountain
The best overall loco:
D.D.
don7 I would seperate my Steamers from my Diesels. My most detailed, newest, most detailed and best running diesels in order are Rapido (best by far) Intermountain (close second) BLI (also very close) Walthers (newer are better than old) Steamers BLI, True Trains, Walthers Proto (only newer, older had poor traction) Spektrum (great runners, sound OK
I would seperate my Steamers from my Diesels. My most detailed, newest, most detailed and best running diesels in order are Rapido (best by far) Intermountain (close second) BLI (also very close) Walthers (newer are better than old)
Steamers BLI, True Trains, Walthers Proto (only newer, older had poor traction) Spektrum (great runners, sound OK
All of those are great products - but again, it is clear to anyone who has followed your interests, those choices are influenced by your prototype interests.
I don't have anything from Rapido - only because I don't model any of the roads they have produced locos for.
Sheldon
To supplement my previous post: I think the old Athearn/P2K truck design was outstanding as far as electrical pickup consistnency. Proto had the cracked gear issue which could effect pickup if severe enough, but that issue is ancient history now, and doesn't impact my opinion of them.
What I don't care for is a truck design that uses metal wipers held against the inside of the wheels with tension. Nor do I like newer designs that have metal wipers held against square brass bearings (like the common athearn bearing) with tension...inside the gear case. Any slightly misplaced factory lube used on the gears can work it way around and can interfere with the strip making contact with the bearing. Just a bad idea, imo.
- Douglas
Larry,
Thanks for the additional info. Years ago I worked in a hobby store, did repairs and was very familiar most all models. But for the last 20 plus years, I have been modeling only, and diesels like the SD40-2 are outside my era of interest, I have forgotten or lost touch with their features.
I have a lot of the Athearn style Proto 4 wheel trucks, many have needed gear replacement - none have failed a second time. I have long agreed with your view that the cracking is very likely to happen to locos stored in poor environments.
KATO has never made a loco that fits my era/interest - so for me it matter not.
P2K made a number of models that Athearn and Kato did not make. When people describe them as clones, it means that they basically utilized the parts and design of one or the other and some times both. Where possible, they improved certain features.
Athearn BB SD40-2 truck structure is basically the same as the E8. P2K changed the bottom clip and side frames on most of their units, C-C and B-B. The Kato clones have a metal plate on the outside that the axle rides in to pass the electrical circuit. While the designs have many differences, the major difference is the axle gears construction. The Athearn type axle gears are a tube with a gear formed on it. The half wheel shafts fit into this tube with an interference fit. This puts the plastic in tension at all times. The plastic suffers from a cyclic fatigue condition because of that. The failure time can be very short depending on the amount of interference and the temperature variations the model is exposed to, even new in the box.
The Kato clone trucks have a plastic axle and formed gear as well. But the axle fits into the wheel. This interference puts the plastic into compression. The failure mechanism is still there, but the failure rate is several orders of magnitude longer.
The wheel to axle connection is better on the Kato design. However, Athearn went away from a cruder outside frame design. I believe it was because of electrical pick up issues. When people complain about Kato it is becuse of electrical pick up.
In N scale, I've always liked Kato locos; in HO, I have only purchased 3 locos so far, and the one from Bowser is the best one of the three.
Why do you consider it an Athearn clone when Athearn never made a similar truck/loco? Just because of the inside bearings? I think clone is too strong a word in this case, but OK, if you want to consider it similar to the late model Blue Box PA1.
I didn't need a picture, I own a stack of them.
But I have known very few people to have any axle/gear failures like the 4 wheel Proto truck. I did have one out of 6 Proto PA's to have just one bad axle, and have know no one else to have such a failure. Life Like provide free parts in that case as well.
You can call it very good "in its day" buy I am not impressed with diesels from Broadway or Atlas when it comes to fine detail on the shell - Proto, Genesis and Intermountain still own "best" in that department for me.
Someone mentioned stalling on turnouts - non of my locos stall on my powered frogs.....
See below. Definitely an Athearn inside braced clone.
ggnlars A discussion like this could go on for a long peroiod. There is a lot of competition for the best product in HO engines. Because the features evolve, what is great today will likely be average on the next model. Keep in mind, they are just mechanical systems. There is variation in all of the parts, mechanical and electrical. I have been doing a lot of testing in the recent months. The most significant finding is that certain brands tend to have less variation and others tend to have more. The question of best is very subjective. Are you talking "best replicates your rail road"? If you did a search, most engines for a given railroad had differences. These increased over time and things wore out and non stock replacements were used. If your talking about "who makes the most accurate sound system"? that one is really where the competition is intense. Because of this, the sound package is changing in almost every release. So if you got a GP7 with sound three years ago and one today from the same manufacturer, the sound package is likely different. The latter of better quality sound. Or are you asking who makes the "best performing engines?. To really know what is best for you, you have to know how you want to use your engines. i.e. are you running mainly long trains on flat country between 10 and 20 SMPH for long periods of time? Or, a lot of yard switching with a few cuts of cars creeping at less than 5 smph. Lastly are you running mainly consists over a lot of resistance factors, sharp curves and grades for instance. It is difficult to make a product that serves all of these demands well. Some do better than others. The desire for clear sound and reduced current draw has further complicated this issue. Both of these are accomplished by reducing the power needs of the system. That is a bit like going from a dump truck to a smart car. You loose certain capabilities going to the smart car. The question is did they matter. My recent tests have all focused on the performance aspects. Recent releases suffer in many ways, so one has to be sure the benefits out weight the drawbacks. I would put Atlas China at the top Then anything that Kato supported would be close to them. The main reason is their units tend to have little variation, model to model and unit to unit. Their are some that I have heard good tings about, but do not have enough experience to be sure: Rapidio and recent Bowser. P2K was very good in its day. There is a very good summary of the Athearn and Kato lineage in the Life LIke models Here: http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=52753 About half way down the page there is the summary. The P2K E8A's I have worked on were all Athearn truck clones, with the axle gear issues. So the list may not be totally accurate, but will get you started. Fundamentally, P2K engines were really tuned up and sound reduced Athearn blue box engines. So while certain aspects were improved, they still had the same genes. Larry www.llxlocomotives.com
A discussion like this could go on for a long peroiod. There is a lot of competition for the best product in HO engines. Because the features evolve, what is great today will likely be average on the next model.
Keep in mind, they are just mechanical systems. There is variation in all of the parts, mechanical and electrical.
I have been doing a lot of testing in the recent months. The most significant finding is that certain brands tend to have less variation and others tend to have more.
The question of best is very subjective. Are you talking "best replicates your rail road"? If you did a search, most engines for a given railroad had differences. These increased over time and things wore out and non stock replacements were used.
If your talking about "who makes the most accurate sound system"? that one is really where the competition is intense. Because of this, the sound package is changing in almost every release. So if you got a GP7 with sound three years ago and one today from the same manufacturer, the sound package is likely different. The latter of better quality sound.
Or are you asking who makes the "best performing engines?. To really know what is best for you, you have to know how you want to use your engines. i.e. are you running mainly long trains on flat country between 10 and 20 SMPH for long periods of time? Or, a lot of yard switching with a few cuts of cars creeping at less than 5 smph. Lastly are you running mainly consists over a lot of resistance factors, sharp curves and grades for instance.
It is difficult to make a product that serves all of these demands well. Some do better than others. The desire for clear sound and reduced current draw has further complicated this issue. Both of these are accomplished by reducing the power needs of the system. That is a bit like going from a dump truck to a smart car. You loose certain capabilities going to the smart car. The question is did they matter.
My recent tests have all focused on the performance aspects. Recent releases suffer in many ways, so one has to be sure the benefits out weight the drawbacks.
I would put Atlas China at the top
Then anything that Kato supported would be close to them.
The main reason is their units tend to have little variation, model to model and unit to unit.
Their are some that I have heard good tings about, but do not have enough experience to be sure: Rapidio and recent Bowser.
P2K was very good in its day. There is a very good summary of the Athearn and Kato lineage in the Life LIke models Here:
http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=52753
About half way down the page there is the summary. The P2K E8A's I have worked on were all Athearn truck clones, with the axle gear issues. So the list may not be totally accurate, but will get you started. Fundamentally, P2K engines were really tuned up and sound reduced Athearn blue box engines. So while certain aspects were improved, they still had the same genes.
Larry, you make a lot of good points about the "subjective" nature of choosing what is "best" - I agree.
The comments I have made in this thread relate directly to several simple points:
1. No matter what criteria you use, it is still difficult to judge "by the brand", they all have made some duds, they all have made some winners.
2. If you are just a "random collector of model trains", then choosing to buy "only the best", based on your personal criteria is a choice anyone is free to make. BUT, if a person has a specific set of modeling goals, requiring or desiring models of specific prototypes, one must be willing to consider all reasonably performing models of the desired prototypes - making "best" a much less important critria.
I'm not going to pick my prototype and era based on what is made by one or two manufactrurers - for that reason I don't own any Atlas or Kato locos, no matter how good they are.......few if any from those brands fit my theme or era.
I agree that manufacturing consisitancy is a mark of quality - and a downfall of some of the available brands - but in the whole history of the "China production revolution" that situation has consistantly improved across the board with all the brands.
Some of us, like myself, remember the hobby before "made in china" - I will take the advanages with the disadvantages of this change and make the best of it.
Also, speaking of personal criteria, I have no interest in sound or DCC - I've been known to remove a lot of decoders and a few sound decoders to run some more recent production locos with my Aristo Train Engineer throttles - which are not liked by dual mode DCC decoders.
So I don't care one bit about a sound system - they all sound like the crappy little 1" speakers they are played through.
Proto 2000 E8/9's have a KATO clone truck design, not an Athearn truck, the two axle Proto truck is an Athearn clone.
But again, all my DC powered Proto locos run great on my Aristo Wireless Throttles, only a few have needed the most minor tuning.
And all my Bachmann Spectrum steamers run great, better than several BLI steamers ran out of the box.............
And I like the fine detail on Proto compared to most diesels from Atlas or BLI......
Again, happy to have already bought a big stock of undecorated DC powered Proto and Spectrum locos for my ATLANTIC CENTRAL.
Freelance modeling the Mid Atlantic in 1954......
ggnlars That is a bit like going from a dump truck to a smart car. You loose certain capabilities going to the smart car. The question is did they matter. My recent tests have all focused on the performance aspects. Recent releases suffer in many ways, so one has to be sure the benefits out weight the drawbacks. I would put Atlas China at the top Then anything that Kato supported would be close to them. The main reason is their units tend to have little variation, model to model and unit to unit. Larry www.llxlocomotives.com
That is a bit like going from a dump truck to a smart car. You loose certain capabilities going to the smart car. The question is did they matter.
Agreed. This is what I would have wrote. Right out of the box, Atlas and Kato are consistently good. You know what to expect and you get it. Atlas locomotives tend to be built with the same parts year after year, run after run. Which also allows them to be one of the few manufacturers to have spare parts available too.
Also, I don't care for the idea of buying a state of the art loco that might stall over turnouts. Even short wheel based locos should run properly right out of the box. I've never owned an Atlas or Kato loco that has stalled, whereas Bachmann, P2K, and some others suffer this issue occasionally. If you can't get the wheel-to-decoder electrical continuity issues correct, I don't care about how prototypically accurate the shell is, or how accurate the sound is, or much else. Those things simply don't matter unless the basics work like they should......right out of the box...EVERY new loco....always. I know that some of those pickup issues can be inconsistent soldering, which is more of a QC issue, but some locos still suffer from poor truck and pickup design even though they have a very advanced digital control system installed.
LOL
This Eveready Bunny thread started out 18 months ago as Who Makes the Best locomotives. What happened? We are now mired in an argument over who makes the worst locomotives.
Rich
Alton Junction
SouthPenn These were bought off of EBay long after Life Like was absorbed by Wathers. They were indeed NIB. South Penn
These were bought off of EBay long after Life Like was absorbed by Wathers. They were indeed NIB.
South Penn
Respectfully, so you bought new old stock Proto E units off Ebay, 10-15 years after they were made, possibly from different production runs, and even though they apeared to be NIB, you really have no idea how they were stored/handled all those years, and you use this one experiance to judge a product?
All from the same seller? A dealer or private seller?
The problem with the drive shaft sounds like possible shipping damage, a jolt might have moved a universal or flywheel on a motor shaft binding the drive shaft.
Electrical boards different - possible - Life Like made a number of different batches of those locos over a 10-15 year period before Walthers ownership. Then Walthers made several runs before retooling the drive. The circuit boards did "evolve" over that whole 15 year or longer period.
It is unfortunate that you had a bad experiance, I don't buy much on Ebay - unless the price is really right........or it really looks NOS/NIB......not interested in "already been played with" stuff.
As I said earlier, I have 6 Proto E units, all great runners, and about 45 other Proto diesels - all great runners.
The cracked gear problem was mainly GP7's, FA's, BL2's and other four wheel truck models - and it was later fixed and is easily fixed if you find one not yet fixed. Not one Life Like replacement gear set has ever cracked in my locos - Life Like gave away tons of wheel sets to honor their warranty on that. 20 years later, no one should be crying about havng to repalce $12 worth of wheels to keep an otherwise great model running - or get it running because it has been sitting on a shelf for 20 years. Try telling anyone in any other business you just bought a NOS 20 year old item and you want warranty serivce - ha, ha.
Atlas makes great stuff, but I will never understand these discussions of best/favorite brand - why? - becuase it does not matter how good a product is if they don't make the models you need or want.
AND, not every product from the same brand is the same quality - they all make duds, they all make some winners.
Atlas makes/has made very few locos in my era, they have been harder to find and more expensive. I freelance and buy a lot of undecorated locos, now hard to find from anyone, but Atlas has always been light on undecorated availablity........
KATO - that's just an N scale company that dabbles in HO from time to time - good as they may be, they have never made a model that would fit the theme/era of my railroad.
I will not preorder - another reason to not own Atlas - no matter how "good" they are.
But, truth told, I now own most every model train I have any need for or interest in, so it matters not who makes what, how good it is/was, and how you must get on a list to own one.
I'm running a large fleet of mostly Proto, Bachmann Spectrum, Genesis and Intermountain locos - on DC, with no sound.
My Layout Photos- http://s1293.photobucket.com/user/ajwarshal/library/
SouthPenn Sorry. All three are EMD E8/9 South Penn
Sorry. All three are EMD E8/9
Interesting that you had problems with that model, never known anyone to complain about such problems with that model.
I have 6 of them myself, all perfect runners.
You may have said, but did you buy them new?
If so you should have simply returned them. LifeLike had a very good warranty.
SouthPenn Atlantic Central: All the locomotives are marked Life Like on the bottom. Hope that helps. South Penn
Atlantic Central:
All the locomotives are marked Life Like on the bottom. Hope that helps.
Respectfully I was wondering which specific models - GP7, FA1, FA2, etc ?
While many Proto models share common drives/parts, not all are of the same design.
Athearn Blue Box Made in the U.S.of A.
MDC Roundhouse Yellow and Red Boxes Made in U.S. of A.
Mantua Red Box/Mantua Yellow and Orange Box and Some Blue Box, Made in U.S.of A.
OK, Mehano, then. But yes, it's the PC series. And it pulls just fine.
SouthPenn I don't know when the Proto 2000's were built, but all were NIB. One runs fine but needs some TLC to run better. One would not go around any corner no matter the radius. The slip joint for the rear truck was so long, it was binding up the truck not letting it turn. I cut about 1/2" off the female part of the slip joint and now it goes around corners. But still needs work to run smoother and quieter. The third unit vibrates and make so much noise it has become a permanant display in the round house. I might try to fix it. The mechanicals, weights, and electrical systems are slightly different in each locomotive. South Penn
I don't know when the Proto 2000's were built, but all were NIB.
One runs fine but needs some TLC to run better.
One would not go around any corner no matter the radius. The slip joint for the rear truck was so long, it was binding up the truck not letting it turn. I cut about 1/2" off the female part of the slip joint and now it goes around corners. But still needs work to run smoother and quieter.
The third unit vibrates and make so much noise it has become a permanant display in the round house. I might try to fix it.
The mechanicals, weights, and electrical systems are slightly different in each locomotive.
Well it would really be interesting to know which Proto locos you had this trouble with?
Kato and Atlas make great stuff, but their selecton does not fit my era or interests.
I thought it was MY old eyes!
Tom
De Luxe snjroy DeLuxe, there is a Mantua 4-8-4 on utube Hi Simon, I know that 4-8-4 very well. Was on ebay once upon a time. Spoke with the seller. It´s of course a kitbashed unique 4-8-4. Quite well done. @ Atlantic Central: it´s not a 4-8-4 on the photo. It´s a 4-6-4 and Mantua of course did some 4-6-4´s. But for sure no 4-8-4. At least I didn´t see any yet.
snjroy DeLuxe, there is a Mantua 4-8-4 on utube
Hi Simon, I know that 4-8-4 very well. Was on ebay once upon a time. Spoke with the seller. It´s of course a kitbashed unique 4-8-4. Quite well done.
@ Atlantic Central: it´s not a 4-8-4 on the photo. It´s a 4-6-4 and Mantua of course did some 4-6-4´s. But for sure no 4-8-4. At least I didn´t see any yet.
Opps, my bad, guess I should read slower.