I just bought a set of Walthers Santa Fe Super Chief cars (non-plated), and I have had the usual issues with these cars as I tested them on the layout.
One issue is with the couplers. Walthers uses those plastic knuckle couplers without springs for hinges. Instead the knuckle pivots on a plastic strip. The result is that it is difficult to couple them, and they easily uncouple, not always and not every car, but the cars can make several trips around the layout without issue and then all of a sudden a car will uncouple. To remedy this issue, I typically replace the couplers with Kadee couplers. For those of you with similar experience with these cars, what type of Kadee coupler do you use? I want the cars to stay close to one another so that the diaphragms look prototypical but not so close that the diaphragms interfere with one another on curves.
Which raises another issue with the couplers that Walthers uses on its passenger cars. While they can uncouple unexpectedly on the layout, trying to separarte these cars by hand is a near impossibility. Try to separate a car from a consist and the car on either side of it wants to come with it. Arghhh.
The other issue is with the wheelsets. On occasion, a car may derail, not always in the same spot but, typically, it will occur on a curve or turnout. The obvious culprit is the track work, but it is not always in the same spot, but it is always the same spot. Another thought is that the wheelset may be out of gauge. Most often, what sokves the problem is to turn the car around, and then the derailments stop. Once the derailments stop, they do not return. Any thoughts on the derailment problem?
When the new cars are first placed on the layout, a few cars make squealing sounds. Walthers says in its paperwork that the "metal trucks and wheelsets must be lubricated before use", using LaBelle #107. OK, I can do that. But on each box, it reads "low friction, nonmagnetic needlepoint metal axles, no lubrication ever required". That seems to conflict with their previous comment. Do those of you with Walthers passenger cars lubricate the point where the axles meet the trucks?
I have one other beef. One car came without the little bag of grab irons. I emailed Walthers since the paperwork says to contact them if any parts are missing. They wanted $5 because they said that I did not purchase the cars from an "authorized dealer". Say what? I bought them new from an eBay store, and this guy is reputable, having bought many items from him before. I thought that was less than classy on Walthers part.
I really like these passenger cars, but it sure takes a lot of effort to fine tune them.
Rich
Alton Junction
I have many of the same issues with Wathers passenger cars. Once I have the trucks fine tuned as far as turning room, and figure out in which direction the cars runs the best, I can run the train.
My biggest lesson with Walthers was the set of "Big Sky Blue" Empire Builder cars I collected from various sellers over a 2 year period. When I put the train together, I had many issues to resolve. I did things to the trucks and the bottoms of a few of the cars that would cause a true "prototypical modeler" to run out of the room screaming! I know all about what they claim is the "recomended minimum radius", and I didn't have the room for big sweeping curves when I built my lay out, so it is what it is. I ended up using Rapido baggage and observation cars to make the set run decent.
On my Christmas train lay out, Bachman and Rapido cars have no problem with the 22" sectional track. On push-pull commuter trains I run, I use Bachman bi-level cars. No problems pushing or pulling up to 3 cars and a "cabbage car" at track speed. I haven't tried Kato yet.
Now I pass up many deals on Walthers passenger cars, unless it's a "no-brainer" for resale purposes.
Mike.
My You Tube
mbinsewi I have many of the same issues with Wathers passenger cars. Once I have the trucks fine tuned as far as turning room, and figure out in which direction the cars runs the best, I can run the train.
Mike, thanks for those comments. That is my experience exactly with the Walthers cars.
I should have mentioned that the radius of my curves is 30" and 32". I use Atlas Code 83 flex track and mostly Atlas Code 83 Custom Line turnouts. For my double crossovers (two of them), I use Walthers Shinohara track pieces.
On each end of my "L" shaped "dog bone" style lay out, the main line (Atlas Flex, code 100) sweeps around on a 4' 4" wide space, as close to the edge as possible, so doing the math, I'm just at, or a little under, Walthers minimum. So I guess I can't complain too loudly. I've just learned to stay from Walthers passenger equipment. I also have a few European style cars from Lima, that have detailed interiors, and run great on my layout, and as I mentioned, so do Rapido cars.
Mike
Checking all the wheelsets with an NMRA track gauge is always a good idea. Sometimes the problem is the trucks being screwed on too tight. Because of this, they derail if a curve has a dip in it. Turning the screw holding the trucks to the bolster back a half turn or so sometimes gives them a little more 'play'.
FWIW I've only done some testing of trains of Wathers Superliner and EB cars on my layout which uses Kato Unitrack, currently 31" min radius and No.6 turnouts, with no problems in normal running. (Sometimes when backing up the train it wants to derail at one or two spots, I think because of the way the diaphragms push each other.)
Four or five members of our HO scale club have bought Walthers passenger cars and have had to make, or attempt to make, major modifications to get them to stay on the track.
Binding of the trucks on the screw heads for interior lighting electrical pickup has been one major issue with all of them. Some of the screw heads had burrs on them.
Some have resorted to Kadee shelf couplers to eliminate the random uncoupling problem, but that really makes them nearly impossible to uncouple when you want.
One set of Amtrak passenger cars continue to have the squeeking wheels, and we have been unable to figure out why. We have tried powdered graphite and light machine oil, but sometimes the squeek doesn't go away.
Others have just given up and put the cars away and stopped trying to get them to run right.
We've never had similar problems with IHC, Rivarossi, Athearn, Rapido, or other brands of passenger cars.
wjstix Checking all the wheelsets with an NMRA track gauge is always a good idea.me Sotimes the problem is the trucks being screwed on too tight. Because of this, they derail if a curve has a dip in it. Turning the screw holding the trucks to the bolster back a half turn or so sometimes gives them a little more 'play'. FWIW I've only done some testing of trains of Wathers Superliner and EB cars on my layout which uses Kato Unitrack, currently 31" min radius and No.6 turnouts, with no problems in normal running. (Sometimes when backing up the train it wants to derail at one or two spots, I think because of the way the diaphragms push each other.)
Checking all the wheelsets with an NMRA track gauge is always a good idea.me Sotimes the problem is the trucks being screwed on too tight. Because of this, they derail if a curve has a dip in it. Turning the screw holding the trucks to the bolster back a half turn or so sometimes gives them a little more 'play'.
I too have found quite a no. of issues w/ these passenger cars. Minor tweaking didn't bother me so much. as I waited quite a while for prototypes in B&O heavyweights, w/o all the troubles of kitbashing and replacing car sides etc or having to buy rather pricey brass.
My club layout has 36" min radius, and my troubles are or should be minimal compared to many that try to run them @ that recommended bare min 24".
First off, I automatically toss any "junk" coupler and change out the appropriate Kadee, #5s for these cars. I noticed that that most coupler "covers" (pinned and against steps) were partially glued and that joint had to be broken, breaking a few pins allong the way.
2nd, a few cars would not track and/ or would derail at random spots. Upon close inspection found the trucks mounted far to tight, This doesn't affect swing as much as not allowing the truck to "rock" w/ any irregularities in trackwork. Backing off the screw until proper movement was needed.
The greatest issue found was the truck itself (these are all 6 wheel). I noticed that about 1/2 of the trucks were twisted/ warped by the metheod of assy w/ those tiny screws into the bolster plate. You will see this by sighting the "axle plane". Many times a simple over twist or resetting the screws was all that was needed. A couple actuall needed to have the metal contact strips (floor mounted light PU) flattened to ride properly on those "screw heads" Yaw of the truck can be controlled by adjusting/ fooling w/ them also.
All the axles have to be lubricated as none is present and that is the drag and/ or squeal. I simply overturn the truck add a drop and spin the heck out of each to check the operation.
I have no issues w/ the diaphrams due to the wide radius I run on, but could see potential troubles if running especially backing these on tighter turns. Some may need to use the longer shank centerset either on both ends or if always run in a special oriented consist you could use a long one at only one end to not separate the cars way too far and look foolish.
Running tighter radius may require underframe modification for wheel clearance running down to or less than 24"'
Aside from all these proplems, I still feel these are decent cars and have no regrets, of course I bought these many years ago and only paid $35 ea. no cmplaints. If I had to spend current $$, I may be a bit more perturbed!
Uncoupling cars can be quite the ordeal as they are rather difficult, I reach in sideways w/ a skewer to move the "glad hand" to uncouple if not over a magnet
I hope this helps out to those having such issues w/ these otherwise decent passenger pieces.
Love these, and after some TLC, will run them for hours @ shows with no problems whatsoever
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
Rich,
I have the same exact cars, and the same exact issues as you. I use Kadee #5 and long shank #26 on each car. So when you couple them, the #5 regular shank, connects to the long shank. It gives you a little bit of seperation, but not too much. Do this for all the cars.
The wheelsets I found that sometimes they catch on the underbody, and I use a dremmel to trim the plastic on the underbody.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
[quote user="Motley"]I have the same exact cars, and the same exact issues as you. I use Kadee #5 and long shank #26 on each car. So when you couple them, the #5 regular shank, connects to the long shank. It gives you a little bit of seperation, but not too much. Do this for all the cars.[/quote
Im with micheal here except I use the "whiskar " 148 med. & 146 long ..... on my 26-29 curves
axel Lube a must, I use a light conductive oil with OK results , I do remember a guy who posted here that a "gear lube paste"was the e-ticket for these axels BUT only remember it was a "labelle " product and DONT recall him useing lighting.....
I do agree , they could or should be better out of the box ....Jerry
bogp40The greatest issue found was the truck itself (these are all 6 wheel). I noticed that about 1/2 of the trucks were twisted/ warped by the metheod of assy w/ those tiny screws into the bolster plate. You will see this by sighting the "axle plane". Many times a simple over twist or resetting the screws was all that was needed. A couple actuall needed to have the metal contact strips (floor mounted light PU) flattened to ride properly on those "screw heads" Yaw of the truck can be controlled by adjusting/ fooling w/ them also.
It took some work, but my Walther passenger cars are finally preforming well on my 28" min R main.
Some trimming of the crossmember helps even if you're above the 24" min R .
The biggest issues were with thr trucks, as other have noted. A good piece of plate glass to set them to level after loosening and retightening the truck assembly screws helps. There is some adjustment possible in the way the screws hold things together, but things are often set wrong here from the factory.
Another issue is that at least some of the truck assembly screws have washers under their heads. If you do have the washers, sometimes removing them lowers the screw head enough so it doesn't hang up when rotating.
About those burrs on the screw head, these were the biggest contributor to the problems I had. Take a file and smooth them down so they glide easily over the contact strip and don't hang up on curves.
Speaking of that contact strip, I've never been able to figure out if the whole thing is supposed to float or if the springiness of the metal is all the give it has. I suspect it's supposed to float, but in many case just seem glued or stuck so that it doesn't and you're left with only the metall's springiness. This doesn't help matters.
As for why some the problems with some cars go away when reversed, it's been my experience this is probably the 6-wheel trucks with the offset bolster pivot. They track differently depending on which way the car is oriented. Tuning will help solve this or you can just leave things pointed the "right way" and live with it. This sometimes applies to 4-wheel trucks, too, so that's worth keeping in mind.
Gauge is pretty crucial here, too, as many issues start with that as a factor. Solving that fixes many things. If not, it's still a good start and the source of the remaining issues is clearer.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Jerry,
He was probably talking about Labelle #106 plastic compatible lubricating, grease with PTFE. I only use oil on siderods and motor bearings. I take the wheels out and put the grease in the journals. I use it in all my rolling stock.
Frank
zstripe Jerry, He was probably talking about Labelle #106 plastic compatible lubricating, grease with PTFE. I only use oil on siderods and motor bearings. I take the wheels out and put the grease in the journals. I use it in all my rolling stock. Frank
Frank, we have 60 club members who most have fooled w/ all these Walther's passenger issues. this is speaking of hundreds of pieces. Some don't care and run them out of the box until they're bad ordered, however most need to go through that tweaking proceedure to have a reliable consist.
We have found although the #106 will work and reduce friction, but any light plastic compatible oil seems to do a much better job in initial rolling quality and on mine has worked fine now for 4-5 years w/o any other work. This is also the case w/ quite a number of other members and the hundreds of pieces. The grease can tend to not allow as free a rolling initially and it can gunk up and add drag in time. These cars are quite heavy and any amount of reduced friction is a plus. I can run 12 cars w/ 2 F- units or 1 E7 w/o problem. The layout is 36" min w/ 42' the norm on mainline radius and no more that a 2% grade throughout, this does help in many ways over many "compressed" home layouts.
I use Labelle 108 oil to lube the Walthers trucks. As others have noted, for some reason a few squeaks seem to resist this intervention and may still happen, but with less frequency. But if there's any confusion about whether to oil or not on the box or enclised lit, yes, do lube the metal trucks as the metal-on-metal contact between the journal and axle end requires it.
Bob,
Maybe I should have stated, about the size of a pin head for the grease amount. It works for me, that is all that matters. I also use the white powder lub. in coupler pockets. The needle of the axle is what really needs to be lubricated, if the side frames are not true, that only complicates the drag problem. My Opinon and Experience Only.
Edit: Labelle #134 Teflon lubricaing powder for coupler pockets.
It's really funny why my set of plated Superliners behaves so well. I have one 24" curve on the layout with a switch in the middle and at one end with grade. The Walthers cars often, but not always derail if being pushed. The problem is with two of the five cars.
At another place is where I have a Shinohara (24"/20") curved turnout and they derail if I took the tighter route. Sure they are just not made for that.
NP.
zstripe Bob, Maybe I should have stated, about the size of a pin head for the grease amount. It works for me, that is all that matters. I also use the white powder lub. in coupler pockets. The needle of the axle is what really needs to be lubricated, if the side frames are not true, that only complicates the drag problem. My Opinon and Experience Only. Frank
Thanks for clarification, Frank. Didn't think you would "ever" Goob up the journal w/ #106.
Most of my replies are generally tailored to less experienced that may be reading and not as much directly to the OP. That minute pinhead of grease may solve that cronic squeal that sometime oil won't solve, good point.
I have seven UP city cars (one or two maybe another series) with 2-axle trucks that work reasonably on my 26" or so curves (they look a bit odd but I like the train with its E6 A/B puller. I did have some problems, the worst being a car that would derail often, until I looked close enough to see the corner of the truck was hitting the side skirt when it swivelled. That needed some filing on the sill to create clearance. All these were obtained at some pretty low sale prices at Walthers so I am happy enough.
I also bought three UP silver MOW cars this year (with 3-axle trucks), on sale for $19 or so I recall. These derail lots. I haven't put much attention into fixing these yet. A quick look just now has me most suspicious that the closest to center of the car wheel flanges may hit the center frame beam on my tightest curves (maybe the inner curve of some 7-1/2 curved turnouts. Just sitting in the yard for now, awaiting motivation to address that To Do List item.
I'll refer to this thread when looking over both sets of cars next time, so glad the issue has been detailed here.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
Last September, I put my "full" Walthers Big Sky Blue Empire Builder on a free-mo layout. As is, out of the box. Pulling it was a set of Walthers F units.
Zero derailments. On 48" curves.
Coincidence? You be the judge.
Ed
ARE YOU SAYING 48 R Like in a 96" circle , mite as well be running on striate track , BUT cut that in half to 24" and thats where the problems show there ugly Lil heads . Not wanting to step on you're testimony its just these cars should run very good out of the box on 26 ,28,30 and yes the 24" that they claim .. , again sorry if I'm coming off harsh ...Jerry
3 Walthers trainsets, here---an 8-car "City Of San Francisco", a 7-car "Prospector" and a kinda-sorta 8-car "Exposition Flyer". Two streamlined and one Pullman Standard. I replaced the Walthers couplers with Kadee 'whiskers', had to file a couple of corners in streamline skirts, de-burred a few truck screws, turned every truck-mounting screw back a half-turn, lubricated all of the trucks with Labelle 107, gave up on trying to mount the hardware, figuring that it was too small for me to see anyway, and after trial and error, ended up with three good-running passenger trains on my 34" minimum radius layout.
But this is called "Ready To Run", lol?
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Oh come on man, like everybody has room for 48" radius curves.
The only way these cars will run on 24" curves, is using long shank couplers. They just bind on the diaphrams and derail. Even if the trucks don't catch on the underbody frame, which in most cases they will.
But at current new production Walthers prices on the plated versions like the Superchief cars, at $65 each, these cars should run better.
I know this might not help but I've stayed away from Walthers passenger equipment if I can.....I have the Amtrak Amfleet Cars and I previously had the Superliner cars. The Superliner cars had nothing but problems...the fact that Walthers put minumum radius on its packaging doesn't help the matter. They seemed to derail at every turnout or curve no matter how much modifying I did....I sold them several years ago when they cost about $32 each....they look good but if you don't have a club layout then you may have trouble. The Amfleet cars run a little better but I also have Bachmann Amfleet cars which run supurb even on 22in radius and the Kato bilevel cars run the best of all as they can run on 18'' although I would run them on 22in and higher as well.
Geez, guys, I need to thank you, one and all, for the great advice given in response to my issues and questions.
Over the course of the next few days, I will do some further fine tuning on these cars, and I will make a hard copy of all of these replies to keep on hand down on my layout.
Interesting discussion point on the lubrication for the wheel axle points. Walthers recommends LaBelle #107 which I have, but I see that some of you use #106 or #108. I will keep both of those products in mind as well.
Thank you all once again. This is most appreciated.
Good info from the above modelers.
All I can add is:
1. Toss the plastic couplers and install Kadees. If you have broad curves and want close coupling then go with #5s. If you're like me and have to contend with 24" radius curves and can live with a "slight gap" that's not noticeably huge, go with a long shank kadee on the designated front (vestibule) end of each car, and a medium shank coupler on the rear of each car.
2. Forum member (and DCC guru) CMarchan provided a good tip about something often overlooked by modelers. One of my cars continued to derail on curves, even after tweaking, and had me baffled. Carl suggested that I check the heads of the Walthers truck screws for tiny, hard to see burs! I carefully touched each screw and turns out that a few burs on two of the screws were rubbing (or dragging) across the contact spring used for lighting and prevented the truck from swing smoothly. A few seconds with a metal file eliminated the problem.
3. Wheel squeals. I don't use oil in the journals as it tends to eventually ooze out. Since the mid 2000s, I've been using Moly Grease (from Woodland Scenics). Since it contains graphite it lubricates very well, while helping with electrical conductivity for the lighting. It's consistency is similar to that of toothpaste. Since it's viscous, there's no need to dab it on with a toothpick. Hold the tube directly over the journal and squeeze the tiny amount needed to fill it and you're done.
4. Roof Removal. There have been several threads posted on this since more and more modelers are painting interiors and adding window shades/curtains.
The primary message is: "DON'T USE EXACTO KNIVES!" inspite of that recommendation being listed on the instruction sheets of the older run cars. Use the "Twist Method". It sounds scary but it does work. Just take your time.
In a nutshell: Hold the car with two hands, one hand on the sides of each end. With your eyes close to the body, gently twist the shell back and forth until you see the roof lift or pop up on one side or end. Once that happens, stop twisting. Slowly run your fingernail underneath the roof's edge from the lifted section to the opposite end to loosen the rest of the roof tabs. It may take several passes. Once the entire side is up, gently pull off the roof. With this method, there should be no broken tabs. If any tabs did break, just glue them back on with CA. If you encounter a stubborn roof tab that won't budge, use a plastic spade to gently push the tab.
Imho the early run Walthers passenger cars are good units overall even with their minor "pesky" quirks. For those on a budget looking to build up decent looking passenger trains, they're a bargain. Many show up on ebay "new in the box" for prices ranging between $20 - $50.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
good info antonio, nice of you to add the roof removel in some detail ,I hate those roof clips, and HMMM; moly w/grafite thats a twist ...good job ..JW
1. Disassemble each truck, then ream out the journals using a truck tuning tool. It is a good idea to have two of these, one for plastic trucks, one for metal. Make sure to clean out the metal filings. Put one drop of oil on a Q-tip, and then apply it to each journal. Wipe the journals with the clean end of the Q-tip to remove the excess oil.
2. Check the wheel gauge before reassembling the truck. After reassembly, make sure each axle has some play and rotates freely. Gently file the top of the screws that hold the truck together, as noted by others, there are burrs that must be removed.
3. Make sure the truck sits flat and level, if not, shim using washers until it does.
4. For the bottoms of the cars, as I have no interest in lighting, I remove the metal strip and replace it with strips of styrene of whatever thickness is needed to achieve the required truck/coupler height. Some experimentation is needed, no one size fits all. File the styrene flat and make sure the edges are smooth.
5. Reinstall the truck and make sure it rotates freely; on the Super Chief cars, some of the brake cylinders on the trucks would hang up on the skirting. If that the case, file either the skirting or the brake cylinder until the truck rotates freely. Any hang up can cause a derailment.
6. Like Motley, I use a Kadee #5 and #26 on each car; as the Super Chief has a set consist, this means it can be arranged so that a #5 will always mate with a #26. Check the coupler heights, make sure the couplers swing freely, shim and file as needed.
7. For uncoupling, get a Kadee over the rails uncoupling magnet. When you want to separate the cars, drop it between the rails, slide the cars over it, press them together to get the couplers to separate, and then pull them apart.
dome_lounge 7. For uncoupling, get a Kadee over the rails uncoupling magnet. When you want to separate the cars, drop it between the rails, slide the cars over it, press them together to get the couplers to separate, and then pull them apart.
That was all very helpful. Tell me more about the Kadee Over The Rails magnet. What is the number?
Kadee #321 for Code 100 Rail, #322 for Code 83 Rail.
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/380-322
Just drop it between the tracks, uncouple your train, and pick it up when you are done.
Jerry
Antonio brings up a good point in "roof removal". This can be quite the pain and "scarey" at best, as some serious damage to the clips and/ or car sides can result if done wrong.
This video may set your fears aside, I was still leary to attempt but does work. Have only damaged one clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr2A-QrqiPc
dome_lounge Rich, Kadee #321 for Code 100 Rail, #322 for Code 83 Rail. http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/380-322 Just drop it between the tracks, uncouple your train, and pick it up when you are done. Jerry
Jerry, thanks for that reference. I appreciate it.