Rivet Counters!

[DonaldAgne]

The term, "rivet counters," is usually used in a derogatory sense. As I was typing a reply to a post (that I decided not to submit, mostly because I've had too much bourbon, and my reply was stupid) I made a typo and realized that a more politically correct term might be "Model Realroaders." Guess, I'd better turn off the computer and go to bed[:I]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DonaldAgne

The term, "rivet counters," is usually used in a derogatory sense. As I was typing a reply to a post (that I decided not to submit, mostly because I've had too much bourbon, and my reply was stupid) I made a typo and realized that a more politically correct term might be "Model Realroaders." Guess, I'd better turn off the computer and go to bed[:I]

Hate um

[Javern]

i dont consider the term rivit counters dergoatory, just describes a modeler who prefers more accuracy and detailing

[Anonymous]

I don't mind rivet counters

[twhite]

I'm a professional classical musician. My hobby is model railroading. We have 'rivet counters' in my profession, they're called Critics. Believe me, if I can spend over 50 successful years in my profession and survive Critics, I can sure as Hell spend that much time in my hobby and survive Rivet Counters.

[Anonymous]

Rivet counters sound like frogs--"rivet, rivet, rivet". AS long as someone enjoys this hobby, who really cares? I try to model fairly accurately, but honestly don't care about being 100% accurate. I model trains because it relaxes, and if rivet counters don't care for my work, it doesn't bother me in the least.

[dehusman]

Actiually the "rivet counters" serve a useful purpose. When I started ing 30+ years ago there were very few car types and they were pretty generic. I credit the "rivet counters" with raising the awareness of the hobby to the subtle and not so subtle differences in equipment. That's why we have the variety of equipment that we do now. That's why a modern Pullman isn't labeled a "sleeper", its a 10-2 or a 4-4-2. That's why we have the vareity of fan and grill arrangements on F units and s of both FA-1's and FA-2's. That's why ers make different door arrangements on cars.

So while they can be annoying if the rivets they are counting are yours, they have elevated the whole hobby's level of sensitivity to differences in equipment.

Dave H.

[BRAKIE]

Dave,As a matter of fact it was NOT the rivet counters that change the hobby.We the modelers change the hobby by asking for better detailed locomotives and selection of cars..You see less then 10% of the modelers are rivet counters so as a group they actually did nothing even though they would have folks to believe they did.It was by answering questionnaires,taking MR readership polls and such like that change the hobby..
At first the manufacturers said a highly detail plastic locomotive would not be feasible due to the costs..Well,a company by the name of Life Like introduce a new line of locomotives called Proto 2000 first was the BL2 that was highly detailed..Of course Atlas and Kato had to play catch up to LL. as far as highly detailed locomotives..Athearn finally join the high detail parade with their Genesis line and now with the newer RTR locos such as the SD50.

[SP4449]

Rivet counters are the individuals that walk up and tell you the observation car on the prized passenger train you have been happily running on the club modular layout for the past 5 years is incorrect, or the engine is numbered out of the "prototype" range of numbers, or your dining car is running the wrong direction, then walk away with a self-satisfied smirk on his/her face.

I had a good friend tell me that he chose the era and railroad he models because the "rivet counters" don't know enough about either to be able to nitpick. ITS MY RAILROAD! [:(!]

[3railguy]

Yes, "rivet counter" is just a slang term like "tin-plater." It's not derogatory in itself but is often used in derogatory sentences. Fine scale modeler is probably a more fitting term for a rivet counter since not all model railroaders get super critical with detail.

[Anonymous]

Prototype experts will offer advice or criticism when invited. They're often invited. Rivet counters offer criticism unasked. They are often invited...to leave.

Wayne

[Jetrock]

The difference, I think, between someone into detail and a rivet counter is WHOSE rivets are being counted!

I count my OWN rivets. I like MY railroad to be detailed and fairly accurate. I don't worry about what you do with YOUR railroad, and won't bother to, say, walk up to people and tell them what's wrong with THEIR railroad.

I mean, if someone asks "Hey, is XYZ accurate?" then I figure it's open season--they solicited the information. But I'll *try* to be kind.

And that's the difference...the "rivet counter" as a derogatory term, is someone who can see flaws in others' work but may not even have a model railroad of their own--they'd rather point out the speck in another's eye than the RAILROAD TIE in their own!

[n2mopac]

There is plenty of room in thos hobby for all types of folks--rivet counters, toy loop runners, and everything inbetween. When we decide that everyone else has to be like us is that day we get into trouble and the day the hobby ceases to be fun. We all have something to contribute and to gain from the others who aren't like us. Learn what you can from those not like yourself and otherwise do you hobby the way you enjoy it. And above all else . . . lighten up.
Ron

[CP5415]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
I have my opinions on how I want to model & run my railroad & I'm sure everyone else has their opinion.
After seeing the latest & greatest come out from various suppliers, I have to agree that a detailed locomotive does look better than a BB Athearn.
BUT, it still won't make me stop running or buying my BB locomotives while running my RTR Athearns & Proto offerings.
I'm not a stickler on everything has to be just so,
BUT after being up close & in the cab of 2816, I'm not going to buy anyone's CPR Hudson just because it's says CPR on the side of the box & inside the box it contains a Hudson. it's going to have to look like a CPR Hudson.
Does that make me a rivet counter?

I guess to me a rivet counter is someone who points out EVERYTHING WRONG with a model or scene or that spends countless hours to get a model or scene just as it is in a picture. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
It's just something that I hope I won't ever do.
I'm not going to be the best model railroader on the planet, I don't have the time to invest in that. I'm just a hobbist who happens to like the Canadian Pacific Railway so I'm freelanceing a model railroad to incorporate different locomotives & rolling stock from different RR companies & eras so that I can enjoy a hobby my Dad got me started in 36 years ago.
So I guess since I'm doing it MY WAY, I'm a rivet counter! [;)]

Gordon

[twhite]

CP5145: Cheers to you, Gordon, and some LaBatts to boot! You've got a good attitude about the whole thing, and may all of your Hudson boxes contain real, honest to good CPR Hudsons. What a beautiful locomotive they are!

[Anonymous]

My name is Jay, <Hi, Jay!> and I'm a rivet counter.

I'll count rivets on my own work, but not yours, because I've counted rivets on my own stuff and come up short, but I'm too lazy to go back to repeat 1-2 hours of labor for one rivet, so I figure you all might be the same way.

Do I need to complete the other 11 steps?

[dknelson]

I believe the origin of "rivet counter" was with the famous Lionel scale NYC Hudson of the 1930s -- still one of the finest looking model trains of all time if you ever have a chance to see one in prime condition. By prevailing wage standards of the deep depression it might also have been the most expensive, on a relative basis, scale models offered on a commercial basis.

Lionel boasted it was an exact replica. Then some wise guy noted that they were a rivet or two off on the tender. One or two out of thousands. That news got a lot of publicity at the time -- which probably Lionel did not mind at the least. By the way the New York Central made no demand that Lionel pay it a license fee, either.
Dave Nelson

[BRAKIE]

Actually fine scale modelers are not exactly rivet counters.You see these modelers are more into correctness in SCALE not rivets..
I always like what I call the "freebies". Nice folks those freebies.[:D][tup]

[Anonymous]

Brakie is secrety a rivit counting freebie, and a member of the Free Rivit Society of North America [:D]

[NevinW]

If a rivet counter is someone who strives to make their models as accurate as time and skills allow then count me as a rivet counter. If a rivet counter is someone who slams someone elses model for not being accurate enough for their "high" standards then I am not a rivet counter and would consider that to be just plain rude behavior. Unfortunately I have seen individuals who fall into the second group. - Nevin

[Anonymous]

It seems that most of the rivet counters are in HO. They obsess over details and are super sensitive. I don't see how they can enjoy the hobby.

[cwclark]

Rivets counters!..we don't need no steeinking rivets counters!....yep..there are some out there like that..i had a guy tell me after hours of scratch building a cryogenic tank car that the vent pipe wasn't prototype because it didn't have a certain bend in the pipe that went away from the car instead of straight up..geez!..it hurt my feelings, so he can't come over and play with my trains anymore!..there's more than one way to skin a rivet counter....chuck[:D]

[egmurphy]

QUOTE: If a rivet counter is someone who strives to make theri models as accurate as time and skills allow then count me as a rivet counter. If a rivet counter is someone who slams someone elses model for not being accurate enough for their "high" standards then I am not a rivet counter and would consider that to be just plain rude behavior.

Usually when we use the term in a derogatory manner we are referring to the second example. I don't know anyone who objects to others making their own models as accurate as possible. I know I can't do it but I admire the work of those who have the ability, time, and desire to do so.

QUOTE: It seems that most of the rivet counters are in HO.

Trust me, HO has no patent on rivet counters. Spend some time over on some of the N scale specific forums if you want to see some good examples. They have some really good modelers (it's amazing to me what some people can do in N scale) but there are several who fall into the category we are discussing.

Regards

Ed

[Big_Boy_4005]

You know the best way to frustrate a rivet counter is to keep your trains MOVING!! That will usually shut them up.[swg]

[aloco]

If the term 'rivet counter' is used to describe a person who comments on the lack of detail in a model or wrong detail on a model, then that person is what I would call a NIT PICKER.

[Anonymous]

countin rivets is a waste of brain cells

[areibel]

There are different degrees of rivet counting, don't bad mouth all of us!
"Railroad Prototype Modelers" are a more accurate representation of 90% of counters, They build what they want, how they want it. They might not buy a BB Athern and slap it on the rails, but don't give a hoot if you do. They'll take any model (including P2K, Kato, etc..) and make it more prototype specific, add a few better quality details- check out a diesel with the new Canon fans, they are fantastic! It's just a progression, we all got into model RR'ing, it's just another step. If you're happy with what you have, then be happy!
The other 10% are found in EVERY hobby, there are a couple on this board ! Either they have the money or anal retentive attitude to have something perfect, or they don't have anything but can tell you exactly what is wrong with yours. My other hobby is old Mopars, but "counters" are not limited to brands. Go to any car show and there will be a couple guys walking around together pointing out the flaws on every car. Wrong vinyl for the seat covers, wrong air cleaner, that should be cadmium plated not painted, etc.. But if you're in that hobby, you're probably just there to drive your car and have fun!
Ignore them and move on, regardless of what you're doing!!

[Anonymous]

did you know that if you count the rivets on one side of a locomotive and multiply by two you get a fairly accurate representation of all the rivets? kinda speeds things up!
-rc

[darth9x9]

I don't mind rivet counters but it the guys who measure the rivets that bother me!

BC