Hello I just got a custom brass NJ bi polar class EP-2 gearless electric. It runs smooth and pulls ok. But it's loud. Sounds like a coffee grinder. The grease is soft but there was a lot. I cleaned some out. The gears seem to mesh fine. They are all plastic or something close. the worm gears are brass. Is there any way to make it quitter ?
The body is hollow so there is room in side. There looks to be little to no run time on the wheels. Any ides or thoughts. Thanks for the help Frank
It's difficult to tell from the photos, but it appears as if there's a lot of end-play in the truck's driveshaft. Some thrust washers should eliminate that, but be careful to keep that shaft's driven-gear centred (end-to-end) in its place within the gearbox. It also looks as if there's end-play in the shaft bearings and also that they're loose within the groove in which they sit. The thrust washers should cure the former problem, while you may need to line the bearing mounting grooves with an appropriate thickness of shim brass in order to fix the latter issue.
Any slop within a drivetrain, whether in the gears, couplings, or bearings will generate noise.
Wayne
0-6-0,
Could you possibly,show a pic. of the whole motor,coupled to the truck gear tower. It looks like a Pittman motor from the end shot, not sure though. They were somewhat noisy.
Cheers,
Frank
The sad truth is this: Any time a model's motor drives an open gear set of that type, you're going to get noise, and lots of it. MDC's old boxcab models for example, can be made to run smoothly, but not quietly. You have 2 gears spinning as fast against each other as the motor turns. In the typical model loco these days, you have a worm as the first gear in the drive train, the gear it drives is spinning substantially slower, thus quieter. The points the guys above mention will make it worse, but you will not get it to be quiet. That's the nature of open straight cut gears. (That's why reverse is often noisy in manual transmission cars, straight cut gears are usually used, and that's enclosed even.)
That is a beautiful and unusual model, by the way.
Sometimes the body of a model will amplify mechanism noise. You may be able to lessen it by putting sound deadening material inside the shell. I have used lead wool, available at plumbing stores and packed it into body shells to add weight and deaden noise. But be aware, it does conduct electricity and will short the circuits if you don't make sure its not crossing any. Other acoustically dead materials can be tried too, but that only helps if the body is amplifying the sound. Re-gearing that model to a worm primary drive would be the only real way to cut the noise, but would be a major undertaking, at best. I hope this sheds a little light. Dan
You are assuming,that he is referring to the noise being a gear noise,,could very well be bad motor bushings (bearings) contributing to the noise also,seeing as how it is housed,in a hollow brass tube.It would not be the first time,a poster talked about a noisy Loco and then come to find out,it needed lube in the motor bushings..
zstripe You are assuming,that he is referring to the noise being a gear noise,,could very well be bad motor bushings (bearings) contributing to the noise also,seeing as how it is housed,in a hollow brass tube.It would not be the first time,a poster talked about a noisy Loco and then come to find out,it needed lube in the motor bushings.. Cheers, Frank
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Noise can be a tough nut to crack and will travel through various parts until it is heard.
The starting point of noise, known as the originator is the root cause. Other parts, known as conductors transmit the noise to the part where the noise is heard. This part is known as the reactor.
Many times, people will address the reactor and cannot stop the noise. This is because they are not addressing the real cause, the originator.
Other times the originator is the motor, drive shaft(s) are the conductor and gears are the reactor. So is shimming the gears the right thing to do? Well, if it eliminates the noise absolutely. Or you can attack it from the other end and insulate or replace the motor.
I agree that in some cases, the noise cannot be eliminated. The engine was engineered a certain way and unless you re-engineer the drive, it will remain. Usually you can reduce it however.
Grease is always better than oil in gearboxes for noise reduction . Oil migrates to the bottom and unless it is a sealed, will run out.
Is it quieter with the body off? Try adding some foam inside. A strip of lead weight can also dampen body vibrations.
Disconnect the tube from the motor to the gearbox. Place the engine on the track and run the engine. Is the noise gone?
Jim
Hello here is a pic of the motor and truck.
Wayne yes there is a lot of play here is a video showing how much. click on photo when I power one truck at a time you can see top plate where the motor sets tilt the way the motor in turning You can hear sound in this video the video sounds hollow using my phone but you can still hear the noise coming from the loco. click on photo If I put some foam in there it will take some noise out. What about that spray rubber sealant think that would work as a sound deadener ? Have a nice day Frank
Wayne yes there is a lot of play here is a video showing how much. click on photo
when I power one truck at a time you can see top plate where the motor sets tilt the way the motor in turning You can hear sound in this video the video sounds hollow using my phone but you can still hear the noise coming from the loco. click on photo If I put some foam in there it will take some noise out. What about that spray rubber sealant think that would work as a sound deadener ? Have a nice day Frank
when I power one truck at a time you can see top plate where the motor sets tilt the way the motor in turning
You can hear sound in this video the video sounds hollow using my phone but you can still hear the noise coming from the loco. click on photo
If I put some foam in there it will take some noise out. What about that spray rubber sealant think that would work as a sound deadener ? Have a nice day Frank
Soo Line fanMany times, people will address the reactor and cannot stop the noise. This is because they are not addressing the real cause, the originator.
Many of us had those old brass diesels and tried several popular remedies at the time including foam which none really worked since the hood,frame,motor,gears all played their roll in noise making.
Some of us use lead in the shell and tons of grease on the gears..Didn't really help.
The cold truth is the drive and gearing was of a very poor design.
BRAKIE Soo Line fanMany times, people will address the reactor and cannot stop the noise. This is because they are not addressing the real cause, the originator. Many of us had those old brass diesels and tried several popular remedies at the time including foam which none really worked since the hood,frame,motor,gears all played their roll in noise making. Some of us use lead in the shell and tons of grease on the gears..Didn't really help. The cold truth is the drive and gearing was of a very poor design.
Larry, I did mention that.
Soo Line fanI agree that in some cases, the noise cannot be eliminated. The engine was engineered a certain way and unless you re-engineer the drive, it will remain.
Is there just one motor / drive assembly like shown above ? - or are there two drive sets like that in the engine ?
In all honesty, it doesn't sound all that bad, considering ....
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
WOW!! There sure is a lot of noise,going on in that one,,most definitely,the drive line and I hear a motor whrrrr, also,that goes,up and down, The hollow Brass shell really,amplifies it too. Out of the five brass,I have,not one even comes close to that. Doing something to the shell to dampen,the amplification,of the sound may help,but I'm afraid,not by much..Good Luck On That One!!Really nice Engine though.
I'm sorry,I didn't address the rubber sealant idea. I have used Auto undercoating,on some brass Loco shells and it did help,how much hard to put a number on it, but it did help.
Soo Line fanLarry, I did mention that
As Homer Simpson would say: D'OH!
Turned up the volume on that video. Sounds just like a KMT diesel/electric drive! They were pretty hit and miss when it comes to noise. I've found the grinding is mostly caused by the worms meshing too tightly with the axle gears. Unfortunately, this is really difficult to fix due to the design. NWSL makes a regear kit for KMT drives that helps, but you have to be extremely careful to avoid bending the driveshafts. The only other option I can think of is to raise the entire driveshaft in the truck just slightly (like 0.5mm), which will take extensive filing or milling, but it'll get rid of that very slight bind and hopefully quiet it down.
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I read most of the posts above,so pardon if repeated. Disconnect the motor from the gearbox, run the motor with the cab on and see how much noise you get. If you get a lot of noise, then replace the motors with good quiet ones---I like Kato among the better ones. Also, isolate the motor from the frame with an insulating material, like double sided foam tape or even preferred sometimes--adhesive putty like from Home Depot. YOu might try isolating first.
I like NWSL as they have a lot of good solutions, some I have to modify but that's OK since I figure it's part of the hobby.
Richard
Hello ok I have done a couple of thing's so far. I put some washer's between the worm and bushing that took out a lot of play. I put some .125 closed cell sponge with psa on it. It's a stiff sponge with a sticky back. inside the body. I have not tested it yet.
Darth yes it looks the same I have two KMT 3 axle trucks in the parts bin. And it does have a bind when I was putting the truck back together. If I snugged the screws that hold the bottom cover to much it would barely move. Instead of filing the truck how about the bronze bushing? If I filed a flat spot on the bottom that should raise the shaft right ?
There are two power trucks the one in the first set of photos is the left and the right is in the next set. The right one seams to make the most noise. I had the motors off the truck and ran them for a few min. They made some noise but more when they were spinning the gears. They did get a little warm but not hot. Thanks for the help Frank
Yeah, that might work. You may still have to file a little of the truck around the worms though, as these trucks were built with somewhat tight clearance. As long as you can get rid of that little bind though, a lot of that grinding/growling should disappear. The tower gears are noisy by design, though. I've tried all sorts of stuff on my KMT diesels, and got lucky on one when I replaced a couple gears with NWSL gears. It still whines a lot, but it's at least a smoother whine than it used to be.